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14:19:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-auto-wcag-irc
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14:19:44 <shadi> q+ Ryladog
14:19:44 <Ryladog> q+
14:19:46 <John_HICKS> David :  somone takes the rules and sees how they play out over all the user combinations (browser, AT, context, etc)
14:20:03 <shadi> scribe: John
14:20:07 <shadi> scribenick: John_HICKS
14:20:11 <shadi> chair: Wilco
14:21:35 <John_HICKS> sorry, mis click there
14:22:59 <John_HICKS> Katy : to avoid getting too bogged down in very particular cases of browser AT combinations
14:23:29 <John_HICKS> Katy : finding the middle ground where the rule has relevance for the majority of test situations
14:23:44 <shadi> ack Ryladog
14:25:42 <jon_avila> q?
14:25:46 <John_HICKS> Rule remains based around a main requirement, and not moving into very specific areas
14:26:12 <Ryladog> We should avoid going down the road of building to a specific AT
14:26:47 <John_HICKS> Raph : having a spec for the features that are implemented or not
14:27:11 <John_HICKS> Raph has a contact who has been working on this (URL)
14:28:03 <jon_avila> q?
14:28:28 <John_HICKS> Wilco :  not too concerned with the minutae of specific AT ; but for any given rule we could know what the baseline is
14:28:50 <John_HICKS> Jon A : mobile is an area where these things have greater relevance
14:31:38 <John_HICKS> Katy : support component is important , but this is not limited to AT, it actually concerns browsers, platforms and also technologies
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14:32:54 <John_HICKS> David :  providing a mechanism for going between the rules and the range of AT , so that people can make the inferences
14:33:19 <John_HICKS> Wilco : the rules need to be homogeneous , possibly using EARL
14:33:25 <John_HICKS> David : agree
14:33:47 <Ryladog> q+
14:33:48 <John_HICKS> Wilco : Scope , anything missing?  is something missing?
14:34:21 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/community/auto-wcag/wiki/WCAG_Conformance_Rules_for_W3C
14:34:23 <John_HICKS> Shadi : resumé of the sections in the page
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14:36:17 <John_HICKS> Wilco covers the details of the page
14:40:14 <John_HICKS> correction
14:40:15 <John_HICKS> ok
14:40:48 <EmmaJPR_bbc> Point 2 still says collection ... FYI
14:41:22 <EmmaJPR_bbc> Under ACT suite
14:42:57 <John_HICKS> Wilco : having looked at these phases, how do they sit with the other people on the call?
14:43:22 <John_HICKS> Shadi  :   this is first draft, so obviously the wording is evolving
14:44:04 <shadi> +1 to david! not waterfall/sequential model
14:44:22 <John_HICKS> David : holistically the phases make sense.    In reality there will be some crossover between phases, for example implementations (phase II) which require changes in phase I
14:44:22 <jon_avila> Agree with David
14:45:19 <John_HICKS> Wilco : important for the phases to generate usable material
14:45:33 <John_HICKS> even if this evolves later with subsequent phases
14:46:27 <John_HICKS> Katy :   (mute off...)  reasonable approach, good time line .   Question :  Community group or working group?
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14:46:56 <John_HICKS> Wilco : to be proposed to the W3C,  a working group or taskforce under the wcag working group.
14:47:16 <John_HICKS> Wilco : hte community group remains and focusses on rule design and rule developpement
14:47:44 <shadi> q+
14:47:49 <John_HICKS> Wilco : but designs and templates from the CG will be made available to the WG or TF
14:47:53 <shadi> ack me
14:47:55 <shadi> ack ry
14:48:52 <shadi> q+
14:50:37 <John_HICKS> Wilco : what are the requirements for getting organisations on board , what do we need ?
14:51:09 <Ryladog> q+
14:51:24 <John_HICKS> John : need to avoid an accusation of just rehashing of wcag SC ....
14:51:48 <John_HICKS> Shadi : yes, need to put foward the notion that this is about Conformance Checking , to put foward
14:52:18 <shadi> ack me
14:52:18 <John_HICKS> Shadi : question to Mary Jo, what is your take on the plan?  How to get more people on board?
14:53:49 <John_HICKS> Katy :   The business reason : not only toolmakers, but all testers in general: a means of having a consistent system , no "different results" for different tools, etc
14:54:31 <John_HICKS> Mary Jo : yes, related to Trusted Tester system.   The value add here is about a more consistent result for testing conformance
14:54:43 <John_HICKS> Katy : consistent and reliable, for legal purposes
14:55:30 <John_HICKS> David : agree,   would be good to have some public commitment from vendors as well as an expression of intention to adopt the rules, etc
14:55:57 <John_HICKS> Wilco : question for David -- tool vendor support will bring in more people?
14:57:00 <John_HICKS> David : yes .   Key tools players with good customer bases really brings a market pressure overall for these developpers to take up the ACT ideas, and this has a knock on effect across the board
14:58:14 <John_HICKS> David : if we consolidate these rules, then the vendors are in a way freed up to provide further value adds .   In this sense the solutions provided by the ACT will have positive consequences
14:58:48 <EmmaJPR_bbc> q+
14:59:13 <maryjom> q+
14:59:39 <John_HICKS> Makato : the direction is good.   In Japan there are tool vendors , but they are lacking confidence , so if there were official testing rules coming from the W3C, then there would be an increase in testing tool development
14:59:57 <shadi> ack ry
15:00:08 <John_HICKS> Makato : in March the japanese referential, official, based on WCAG 2, went official
15:00:24 <John_HICKS> Makato : in March the japanese referential, official, based on WCAG 2, was released
15:00:24 <shadi> +1 to Makoto
15:00:42 <John_HICKS> Makato : this will increase business opportunities
15:01:36 <John_HICKS> Makato : we should reach out to the developpers, encouraging them to join the project
15:02:45 <John_HICKS> Makato : the topic is very specific, so people who might be interested in this topic could be limited in number.    With this limited number of people, it is feasible to call them and see if they could be directly interested, so I will call them.
15:03:31 <John_HICKS> Wilco : thank you, yes, good idea/   We do need ot share this stuff wider ;    to what degree might this be extended, there seems to be no upper bound
15:04:01 <shadi> ack em
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15:04:43 <John_HICKS> Emma :   encouragements and possible connections within her organisation, and see you next month
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15:05:30 <John_HICKS> Frank :  tool developpers have an interest to be involved with the group ;
15:07:33 <John_HICKS> Frank :   ok, for the Community group working on rules, with the task force looking at the framework
15:07:52 <John_HICKS> Katy : task forces will always look to community group for rule validation
15:08:23 <John_HICKS> Shadi : a mature plan is needed, with resources, and named people for doing the work, so that this is in no way a burden on the WG
15:09:10 <shadi> ack ma
15:10:28 <John_HICKS> Mary Jo : as other countries pick up wcag as part of policy development ...  China has been doing rules development , but are moving towards WCAG 2.0 (changes underway).   They were interested in the standardization work and may be a source of help.
15:13:06 <John_HICKS> Difficulty getting response from Wei
15:14:33 <John_HICKS> Can :  the rules of WCAG 2.0 are being used, although there are officially the Chinese rules, but these are really more or less a translation of the WCAG 2.0.   Stability is important
15:15:10 <John_HICKS> Can : a testing implementation has been done, but there are some rules are confusing in the Chinese context
15:16:16 <John_HICKS> Can : much user testing (student volunteers), generally good results but of course the volume of pages tested is not very high
15:17:18 <shadi> +1 to Can
15:17:35 <John_HICKS> Can : we are hoping/expecting that the rules wlil become more testable , so looking forward to better guidelines being implemented so that most of the testing can be done automatically by a machine
15:19:58 <John_HICKS> Can : audio lost
15:20:03 <John_HICKS> everybody
15:21:06 <John_HICKS> Can : need more time to look at the local proposals, coming from students, which may be of interest ; I can forward them to you , let you know our suggestions
15:21:37 <John_HICKS> Wilco :  next steps
15:22:24 <John_HICKS> rewording the document, refinement of document .    Question, is the time right for approaching organisations ?
15:22:39 <John_HICKS> me?
15:23:43 <John_HICKS> Jon : totally onboard with the idea, but we need to define the commitments involved (time? deadlines, etc)
15:23:53 <shadi> +1 to john to describe process and commitment requirements
15:23:55 <John_HICKS> Wilco : time investment from organisations
15:24:43 <John_HICKS> Shadi :  half-day to full day per week
15:25:27 <John_HICKS> Shadi : this requirement is missing from the doc.   And what are the specifics (CG versus Task Force commitments, etc)
15:25:50 <shadi> s/john/jon
15:26:29 <shadi> [resource commitments]
15:26:39 <John_HICKS> Jon : we are in, it might not be me, but someone
15:26:43 <shadi> [task list]
15:26:44 <shadi> [project plan]
15:26:55 <John_HICKS> David : also expressed desire to be involved and we are committed
15:27:34 <John_HICKS> David :  need more detailed tasks (revisions?   refinements of the suite?  ) ... timeline is necessary
15:27:42 <John_HICKS> David  : scheduling
15:28:44 <shadi> [other commitments? adoption?]
15:28:56 <John_HICKS> Jon : what's missing?   timeframe, yes.  what are the other commitments that are implied here?
15:29:57 <John_HICKS> final thoughts
15:30:31 <John_HICKS> Shadi : things seem to be on the right track, some good things for the document from today's meeting and we can go foward
15:32:23 <John_HICKS> Separation of rule and ACT work
15:33:04 <John_HICKS> Final thoughts, Mary Jo : encouragements , looking forward
15:33:25 <John_HICKS> Raph : looking forward , and see you in Germany
15:33:43 <John_HICKS> Can : looking forward
15:33:46 <John_HICKS> Wilco : bye
15:34:10 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-auto-wcag-minutes.html shadi
15:34:17 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
15:34:50 <Wilco> Thanks John for doing the minutes
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