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19:47:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/02-crypto-irc
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19:49:04 <wseltzer> Meeting: WebCrypto
19:51:52 <jimsch> jimsch has joined #crypto
19:52:34 <wseltzer> wseltzer has changed the topic to: WebCrypto Call, May 2, 2000 UTC
19:52:52 <engelke_> engelke_ has joined #crypto
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19:53:23 <hhalpin> great work engelke!
19:53:33 <engelke_> thanks, harry
19:53:33 <hhalpin> trackbot, start meeting
19:53:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:53:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CRYPT
19:53:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
19:53:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Cryptography Working Group Teleconference
19:53:38 <trackbot> Date: 02 May 2016
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19:58:41 <wseltzer> zakim, code?
19:58:41 <Zakim> I have been told this is CRYPT
19:59:19 <wseltzer> zakim, this is webex +1-617-324-0000  643 244 026
19:59:19 <Zakim> got it, wseltzer
20:00:11 <wseltzer> present+ virginie
20:00:13 <wseltzer> present+ wseltzer
20:00:19 <ttaubert> ttaubert has joined #crypto
20:00:28 <wseltzer> present+ jimsch
20:00:30 <virginie> agenda?
20:00:32 <wseltzer> present+ engelke
20:00:37 <wseltzer> present+ ttaubert
20:00:40 <virginie> agenda+ welcome
20:00:53 <virginie> agenda+ test status and related clarifications
20:01:04 <virginie> agenda+ status on implementations
20:01:11 <virginie> agenda+ status on the specification
20:01:21 <virginie> agenda+ milestones
20:01:22 <markw> markw has joined #crypto
20:01:29 <markw> present+ markw
20:01:38 <virginie> zakim, who is on the call ?
20:01:38 <Zakim> Present: virginie, wseltzer, jimsch, engelke, ttaubert, markw
20:01:38 <markw> Can someone post the dial-in details ?
20:01:57 <virginie> to markw webex +1-617-324-0000  643 244 026
20:02:05 <hhalpin> +1-617-324-0000 Access Code: 643 244 026 (Member-protected password) WebEx Link IRC irc.w3.org:6665 #crypto
20:02:37 <virginie> agenda?
20:03:27 <wseltzer> present+ markw
20:05:52 <wseltzer> scribenick: wseltzer
20:06:03 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 1
20:06:03 <Zakim> agendum 1. "welcome" taken up [from virginie]
20:06:13 <wseltzer> virginie: reviewing agenda
20:06:44 <wseltzer> present+ ryan_hurst
20:07:01 <hhalpin> present+ hhalpin
20:07:03 <wseltzer> ryan: we should talk about ASN.1 encoding issues, status
20:07:17 <hhalpin> In detail, I hope we have a proposal over this Ryan :)
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20:07:30 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 2
20:07:30 <Zakim> agendum 2. "test status and related clarifications" taken up [from virginie]
20:07:37 <wseltzer> virginie: Status update on testing?
20:07:42 <wseltzer> ... I've seen some updates from Charles
20:08:10 <wseltzer> charles: started writing tests for generateKey
20:08:27 <wseltzer> ... figured out the platform, wrote tests for all the combos of parameters that should work
20:08:43 <wseltzer> ... and then ran through all the combinations of bad parameters to make sure they throw the right error
20:08:48 <wseltzer> ... in the order the spec describes
20:09:00 <wseltzer> ... from preliminary run, these tests take a long time
20:09:10 <wseltzer> ... generating RSA keys is slow, and lots of tests being run
20:09:30 <wseltzer> ... FF and Chrome both do well on success tests, less consistent on failure test
20:09:38 <jimsch> +1 to errors returned on tests not being what is specified
20:09:50 <wseltzer> ... expect to be done with complete set of tests on generateKey this week
20:09:52 <wseltzer> ... for review
20:10:09 <wseltzer> ... will test what browsers say the support, not whether they do it correctly
20:10:14 <wseltzer> virginie: Thanks!
20:10:19 <wseltzer> ... next step for others to review the tests
20:10:30 <virginie> q?
20:10:42 <wseltzer> ... browsers should review them
20:10:45 <markw> q+
20:10:59 <jimsch> q+
20:11:11 <hhalpin> ryan_hurst - thats much better!
20:11:16 <wseltzer> ryan: I've started a list of tests based on the spec
20:11:22 <wseltzer> ... intend to share with the list this week
20:11:48 <wseltzer> ... then look at what tests Charles and ohters have written, what gaps exist
20:12:17 <wseltzer> ... re reviewing findings, I'll make sure to get a date when Google can get back to you
20:12:23 <wseltzer> ... have to coordinate internally
20:12:40 <wseltzer> virginie: Thank you
20:13:43 <wseltzer> jimsch: I've been working on tests too, working with Charles on merge strategy
20:13:57 <wseltzer> ttaubert: I'll take a look by next meeting, talk with team
20:14:03 <wseltzer> ack markw
20:14:31 <wseltzer> markw: With the generateKey tests, looks as though it's testing every possible combo of name, parameter, key usage
20:14:41 <wseltzer> ... is it necessary to test every permutation?
20:14:58 <hhalpin> q+
20:15:03 <wseltzer> ... testing independently rather than matrix might be sufficent
20:15:11 <wseltzer> jimsch: I think it's important that we have the negative tests
20:15:24 <jimsch> s/jimsch/ryan_hurst/
20:15:33 <wseltzer> ... from implementation experience, most often, success modes interoperate, but failure modes and flexible modes don't
20:15:38 <virginie> q?
20:15:45 <wseltzer> ... so I'd hate to lose the testing of failures
20:16:08 <wseltzer> markw: are you talking about problems that might come from specific combos, more likely in failures?
20:16:11 <wseltzer> jimsch: yes
20:16:22 <wseltzer> markw: maybe the failures run more quickly?
20:16:32 <wseltzer> charles: but there are many more of the failure tests
20:16:46 <wseltzer> markw: how long does it take to run full generatekey?
20:16:55 <wseltzer> charles: maybe 5min for each of success and failure
20:17:16 <wseltzer> ... failure one isn't completing in FF on linux. Too many promises queued
20:17:37 <virginie> q?
20:18:04 <wseltzer> jimsch: is it really a problem if the test takes 5min?
20:18:27 <jimsch> s/jimsch/ryan_hurst/
20:18:39 <wseltzer> markw: agree, err on the side of completeness
20:19:03 <wseltzer> ack jimsch
20:19:29 <wseltzer> jimsch: I'd like to refactor tests so they're more algorithm-centric
20:19:47 <wseltzer> ... e.g., to enable people to run all the tests that match a pattern
20:19:51 <engelke_> I agree.
20:19:55 <wseltzer> ... help people for using the tests in development
20:20:32 <wseltzer> virginie: ok, who's going to do that?
20:20:47 <wseltzer> jimsch: ryan, charles, and I can work on that
20:21:01 <virginie> q?
20:21:14 <wseltzer> ryan_hurst: looking forward to working with Jim and Charles
20:21:34 <wseltzer> virginie: good coverage, tests anyone can use and improve, is a good target. Thanks to the three of you.
20:21:38 <wseltzer> ack hhalpin
20:21:52 <wseltzer> hhalpin: tests serve a dual purpose: get us out of CR to Proposed Rec
20:21:59 <wseltzer> ... for that, prioritize coverage
20:22:11 <virginie> agenda ?
20:22:27 <wseltzer> ... then, we can get into PR, refactor tests and integrate in WebPlatform Test suite
20:22:51 <wseltzer> ... can invite PLH to talk further
20:22:55 <wseltzer> ... re timing issues
20:23:02 <wseltzer> virginie: anything else on testing?
20:23:03 <hhalpin> notice that we can keep refactoring the tests even after we've left PR, as long as the first version has the right coverage
20:23:07 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 3
20:23:08 <Zakim> agendum 3. "status on implementations" taken up [from virginie]
20:23:24 <wseltzer> virginie: Implementations and incompatibilities between implementations
20:23:36 <wseltzer> ... Ryan mentioned ASN.1
20:23:48 <engelke_> pbkdf2 keyGeneration?
20:24:29 <wseltzer> Ryan: thread we just had on PBKDF2, removing derivation?
20:24:42 <wseltzer> jimsch: yes, I think we heard consensus to remove that
20:24:51 <wseltzer> virginie: any comment on removing PBKDF2?
20:25:02 <wseltzer> PROPOSED: Remove PBKDF2
20:25:14 <wseltzer> virginie: removing a feature with no impact
20:25:23 <wseltzer> ryan: yes, no UAs implement
20:25:23 <engelke_> Still keeping other operations for it.
20:25:32 <wseltzer> PROPOSED: Remove PBKDF2 derivation
20:25:33 <engelke_> +1
20:25:36 <jimsch> +1
20:25:38 <virginie> +1
20:26:50 <engelke_> Section 32.4 - remove Key Generation option
20:27:02 <ttaubert> +1
20:27:02 <jimsch> Proposed:  Remove the generate key functionality from PBKDF2, but allow for Import Key
20:27:22 <wseltzer> ttaubert: I support removing generateKey for PBKDF2
20:27:36 <wseltzer> RESOLVED: Remove the generate key functionality from PBKDF2, but allow for Import Key
20:28:03 <wseltzer> Ryan: whether it makes sense to specify a profile of ASN.1 that implementations would support
20:28:29 <wseltzer> ... beneficial to be explicit, rather than leaving it unspecified up to underlying libraries
20:28:49 <wseltzer> ... Jim and I should sit down to come up with proposal to socialize on-list, review with implementers
20:28:49 <virginie> q?
20:29:19 <wseltzer> ... non-ambiguous with regard to data structure expectations
20:29:52 <wseltzer> virginie: happy to see more clarity in the spec to promote interop
20:30:09 <wseltzer> ... can you socialize on the list for our next call in 2weeks?
20:30:23 <wseltzer> ryan: that's probably too aggressive; it's non-trivial
20:30:37 <wseltzer> ... lean on Jim's experience here.
20:30:53 <wseltzer> virginie: Let's review in one month, discuss on-list in meantime
20:31:16 <jimsch> q+
20:31:18 <wseltzer> ... anything else on which you'd like decision or path?
20:31:31 <wseltzer> q?
20:31:50 <wseltzer> ack jimsch
20:31:57 <wseltzer> jimsch: I raised an issue on HKDF
20:32:13 <wseltzer> ... changing set of parameters passed in. Would people review for decision?
20:32:43 <wseltzer> ryan: could you re-send that to the list?
20:33:05 <jimsch> subject: Renaming of HKDF-CTR to HKDF converstaion starts on 3/7/16
20:33:14 <wseltzer> virginie: bug review
20:33:30 <wseltzer> ... let's have a formal bug review on the next call in 2 weeks
20:34:11 <wseltzer> markw: I have a backlog of editing; bugs to move from bugzilla. I'll start on the simpler ones there
20:34:34 <virginie> agenda ?
20:34:37 <wseltzer> virginie: Thanks!
20:34:51 <wseltzer> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webcrypto/2016Mar/0027.html Renaming of HKDF-CTR to HKDF (start of jimsch's thread)
20:35:02 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 5
20:35:02 <Zakim> agendum 5. "milestones" taken up [from virginie]
20:35:11 <wseltzer> virginie: I sent milestones that were too aggressive
20:35:35 <wseltzer> ... we need to make effort so we're not continually asking for extensions
20:35:41 <wseltzer> ... keep up the intensive work
20:35:47 <wseltzer> ... of course good work is better than rushed work
20:35:56 <wseltzer> ... so keep the calls every 2 weeks for the WG
20:36:06 <wseltzer> ... and testers are meeting informally
20:36:19 <wseltzer> ... still need to resolve implementation divergence
20:36:30 <wseltzer> ... in a month, if possible
20:37:10 <wseltzer> virginie: thanks to those who are participating. Do we need to do anything to bring others in?
20:37:25 <wseltzer> ryan: 1.5 months isn't realistic for PR transition
20:37:36 <wseltzer> ... it's not a question of people so much as of time
20:37:37 <wseltzer> q+
20:37:50 <wseltzer> ... we have engagement from all the UAs we need to take it to last call
20:37:55 <jimsch> q+
20:37:58 <wseltzer> ... need to go through the tasks one by one
20:38:07 <wseltzer> ack wseltzer
20:39:05 <wseltzer> wseltzer: good to have evidence of real work on the testing and progress on the interop questions
20:39:12 <wseltzer> ... if we need another extension
20:39:30 <wseltzer> jimsch: I'm less worried about the testing than about getting decisions where there are interop problems
20:39:38 <wseltzer> ... we need to get decisions made and into the draft
20:39:38 <hhalpin> q+
20:39:42 <wseltzer> ack jimsch
20:39:51 <wseltzer> virginie: in terms of decisions, we have the right people on the call
20:40:07 <wseltzer> ... if we can't make decision, we might have to remove features
20:40:17 <wseltzer> ... in terms of editing, it's all on MarkW's shoulders
20:40:26 <wseltzer> ... he might like some additional help
20:40:48 <wseltzer> ryan: Mark, if you have a queue and need help, let me know
20:40:56 <wseltzer> markw: working to get it all into github
20:40:58 <wseltzer> q?
20:41:00 <wseltzer> ack hhalpin
20:41:32 <wseltzer> hhalpin: We have great momemtum; let's keep the progress up.
20:42:04 <wseltzer> virginie: thanks, good to see progress
20:42:10 <wseltzer> Topic: AOB
20:42:40 <wseltzer> @@: just released XML-DSIG implementation on top of WebCrypto
20:43:04 <virginie> s/@@/ryan
20:44:00 <wseltzer> Charles: in production use with WebCrypto, signing and verifying documents
20:44:30 <wseltzer> virginie: please share information on usage of WebCrypto
20:44:55 <wseltzer> ... Also wanted to note last week's workshop, Hardware Based Secure Services CG meeting
20:45:16 <wseltzer> ... we talked about extending WebCrypto, giving option for keys backed by secure element or TEE
20:45:23 <wseltzer> ... in discussion
20:45:48 <wseltzer> ryan: you may be interested in polyfill I released for WebCrypto PKCS11 in node
20:46:05 <wseltzer> ... personal projects on the side
20:46:30 <wseltzer> virginie: Our next call for WG will be in two weeks
20:46:42 <wseltzer> hhalpin: do testers want intermediate calls?
20:47:19 <wseltzer> Charles: maybe Ryan, Jim, and I could coordinate among ourselves rather than standing call
20:47:28 <wseltzer> jimsch: we probably want to talk before Monday
20:47:38 <wseltzer> hhalpin: the call is available if you need it Monday
20:47:58 <wseltzer> virginie: Next official call, May 16, same call-in
20:48:15 <wseltzer> ... thanks for the dynamic work. Great progress.
20:48:42 <wseltzer> zakim, bye
20:48:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been virginie, wseltzer, jimsch, engelke, ttaubert, markw, ryan_hurst, hhalpin
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20:48:50 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:48:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/02-crypto-minutes.html wseltzer
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