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16:54:34 <jamesn> agenda?
16:54:41 <jamesn> zakim, clear agenda
16:54:41 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:55:44 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review updated section 3.17 Listbox https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/listbox/aria-practices.html#Listbox
16:55:44 <jamesn> Updates resolve bugs:
16:55:44 <jamesn> 28085 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28085
16:55:44 <jamesn> 29469 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29469
16:55:44 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review updated section 3.35 Window Splitter https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/WindowSplitter/aria-practices.html#windowsplitter
16:55:47 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review resolution of issue 25 "Rename tab panel design pattern" https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/25
16:55:50 <jamesn> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/master/aria-practices.html#tabpanel
16:55:52 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review current revision of section 3.10 Dialog (Modal) https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/master/aria-practices.html#dialog_modal
16:55:55 <jamesn> Updates resolve bug 29303 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29303#c0
16:55:57 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review status of current example development work https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Design-Patterns-Status
16:57:10 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
16:57:10 <Zakim> Present: jaeunjemmaku, JamesNurthen, Michiel_Bijl
16:58:36 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
16:58:43 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA APG TF
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17:01:00 <jamesn> regrets+ Leonie
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17:07:13 <jamesn> agenda?
17:07:18 <jongund> what is  our host room ID?
17:07:37 <jamesn> 646 444 732
17:08:16 <jamesn> jamesn has changed the topic to: https://mit.webex.com/mit/e.php?MTID=mb37eefe6ee01f16437b083a4018efedd
17:08:28 <jongund> what is the password
17:08:58 <Birkir> scribe: Birkir
17:10:29 <Birkir> JN: Never put our sacred password in a comment, us /me space to do it via a comment.
17:10:37 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:11:19 <Birkir> zakim, next item
17:11:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review updated section 3.17 Listbox https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/listbox/aria-practices.html#Listbox" taken up [from jamesn]
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17:12:11 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
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17:14:14 <jamesn> Updates resolve bugs:
17:14:14 <jamesn> 28085 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28085
17:14:14 <jamesn> 29469 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29469
17:15:02 <Birkir> MK: A lot of changes were made, we need to go through this top to bottom.
17:15:46 <jemma_> present+ JaEunKu
17:16:06 <Birkir> MK *grumbles about Jaws*
17:16:47 <jamesn> q+
17:17:11 <Birkir> MK: Looking at the second paragraph, need to look at whether children presentational is still in ARIA 1.1 draft.
17:17:41 <Birkir> MK: We aim for simpler language in this paragraph.
17:17:57 <Birkir> JN: How are paragraphs 2 and 3 different?
17:18:45 <Birkir> MK: 2nd paragraph talks about loss of structure, the third talks about not having long text in options (we may apply this best practice to other widgets e.g. menu).
17:19:30 <Birkir> MK: We might want to create a separate general best practices section that we could link to, for future.
17:21:13 <Birkir> AA: How does the browser treat images in options, since it treats the option as flat text.
17:21:53 <Birkir> MK: Treats image text alternative as part of the option string, without announcing the role.
17:22:43 <jamesn> ack me
17:22:45 <jamesn> q+
17:23:45 <Birkir> JN: Should we remove the first sentence from paragraph 2 (we don't need the term "static" introduced).
17:24:15 <Birkir> MK: The concept "static" is not dfined in the spec.
17:25:54 <Birkir> MK/JN: start paragraph with "the contents of option elements..."
17:26:19 <Birkir> AA: Mention the things with images in options?
17:26:58 <Birkir> JN: Generally I find taht if you have more than two children of an element like optoin, you might as well put an aria-label on it to control how it is read.
17:29:15 <Birkir> BG: Should we change the language of paragraphs 3 and 4 to 'authors should" rather than "should not".
17:29:40 <Birkir> MK: Dificult to phrase it in an 'authors should" way.
17:30:18 <Birkir> MK: Perhaps change it in paragraph 4.
17:31:25 <Birkir> Joint decision to leave paragraphs 3 and 4 as is.
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17:32:52 <Birkir> MK: Deleted bullet about tab key in keybord interaction, we should avoid talking about the tab key unless it does something inside the widget.
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17:34:15 <Birkir> AA: Changet he sub tbllet of list one "optionally an option" ? REmvoe the word "optionally"?
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17:35:28 <Birkir> JN: The (optional) keyword may be confusing e.g. the "home  and end" key section (are both optional, or just the end key)?
17:38:50 <Birkir> MK: Changed sentence to "author may choose to have the first option selected".
17:39:11 <Birkir> JN: Who is the mystery call-in user.
17:39:28 <Birkir> BG2: It is Bryan.
17:39:50 <bgaraventa1979> incognito
17:40:55 <Birkir> MK: Discuss combining the multiple selection models. Hard to write it in a way that came across clerly.
17:41:29 <Birkir> MK: Changed the headings to "recommended model" and "alterantive model".
17:42:18 <Birkir> MK: Tried to order keyboard shortcuts from most important to less important.
17:43:12 <Birkir> JN: "unselect all" keystroke missing for multiple select mode.
17:43:53 <Birkir> MK: WAs told to remove it, we may want to provie a link or button to achieve that purpose.
17:44:34 <Birkir> AA: Under recommended selection model, the o in "optional" should be capitalized.
17:45:04 <jamesn> http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-select-multi.html
17:45:53 <Birkir> After checking other entries we collective decide to capitalize the "o" in "Optional".
17:48:51 <Birkir> MK: Should we add a note at the end?
17:48:58 <Birkir> Consensus, yes.
17:49:34 <Birkir> Birkir: Why do we have the alterantive select model.
17:50:31 <Birkir> MK: Firefox implements this keybaord behavior automatically for a multi-select listbox.
17:51:48 <Birkir> MK: Item for self, make a note about difference between focus and selection. Ditto about active descandants.
17:54:06 <Birkir> MK: Add a note to the end of this section saying something along the lines of: "Authors should provide a control that allows user to de-select all options in a multi-select listbox).
17:55:10 <Birkir> AA: Make ti a third bullet, after alterantive selection model.
17:56:54 <Birkir> Birkir: Should we add a note about only doing this for large listboxes, (clutters up the UI by adding two focusble controls, select and de-select, for each listbox element).
17:59:03 <jemma_> is this the link? https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#Listbox
17:59:18 <jemma_> refreshed doc
18:00:00 <Birkir> sakim, next item
18:00:16 <jamesn> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/listbox/aria-practices.html#Listbox
18:00:23 <Birkir> zakim, next item
18:00:23 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Birkir
18:00:35 <jamesn> ack me
18:01:06 <Birkir> zakim, next item
18:01:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Review resolution of issue 25 "Rename tab panel design pattern" https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/25" taken up [from jamesn]
18:01:20 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 2
18:01:20 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review updated section 3.35 Window Splitter https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/WindowSplitter/aria-practices.html#windowsplitter" taken up [from jamesn]
18:03:56 <Birkir> MK: Changed first sentence to inclue a link. Used the word "boundry" to avoid repetition.
18:05:04 <Birkir> MK: Editorial item, include a sentence that explains what a window splitter does.
18:05:37 <Birkir> JN: Jaws/NVDA do not switch modes when tabbing to a separator.
18:06:18 <Birkir> MK: What does a separator map to, horizontal rule?
18:07:00 <Birkir> MK: Does anything in html map to the separator role? <hr> maps to separator.
18:07:53 <Birkir> MK: So what do we do with a window splitter?
18:08:02 <Birkir> JG: Is it a slider?
18:08:40 <Birkir> MK: What we could do (do not puke) is to use the application role ....
18:09:30 <Birkir> 'JN: A popular way around this is a splitter with a child button.
18:09:41 <Birkir> MK: Button does not trigger interactive mode.
18:09:48 <jemma_> +q
18:10:24 <Birkir> JN: Do screen readers need window splitter?
18:10:50 <Birkir> MK: In some cases yes, e.g. when maximizing a window.
18:11:44 <Birkir> Bryan: I have never seen display none applied to content.this type of collapsed
18:12:47 <Birkir> JN: Looks like we don't have a good role for this, separator is static.
18:13:46 <Birkir> MK: Use combination of application and role description role. Would be a sensible use of the application role (note from scribe, the first?)
18:14:06 <Birkir> Bryan: It is not going to work on touch-screen devices.
18:15:37 <Birkir> Birkir: Isn't touch-screen APG primarily an ARIA 2.0 item?
18:16:09 <Birkir> MK: It kind of is, e.g. hard to describe touch-screen interaction for listboxes and trees.
18:16:30 <Birkir> JG: Do we really need this section?
18:17:02 <Birkir> MK: We could, but if we are going to reserve it, we need to come up with a solution.
18:17:42 <jemma_> +q
18:17:43 <Birkir> MK: Important for sighted screen reader users.
18:19:13 <Birkir> MK: Need to be able to press arrow key until content is expanded or collapsed. Screen reader only users may not need to know this at all.
18:19:21 <jemma_> vote for drop
18:21:55 <jamesn> http://jdevadf.oracle.com/adf-richclient-demo/faces/index.jspx;jsessionid=E7NytAxS1G9DZ1He0hcnWBcpX0Lywjs311Uz4RZIRQ0n0i_iPoPM!-389778909
18:22:03 <jamesn> http://jdevadf.oracle.com/adf-richclient-demo/faces/index.jspx
18:22:13 <Birkir> JN: Goes looking for an example.
18:22:16 <jongund> https://jsfiddle.net/
18:23:05 <Birkir> JG: Fiddle.net has it (code in one payne, results in another).
18:24:12 <jemma_> https://rawgit.com/jongund/oaa-examples/master/examples/treeview/treeview-1.html
18:24:20 <Birkir> MK: The fact we quickly found a few examples shows us this is used. This is a prime candidate for a creating a custom widget using ARIA.
18:24:42 <Birkir> Jemma: Want to ask a question about trees.
18:25:07 <Birkir> MK/JN: Work on a better window splitter example, take it back to the group.
18:26:37 <Birkir> AA: Spec discusses a visible separator, e.g. between groups of menu items or as a movable separator between two regions in a split payne. This indicates a spec problem. A static element should not be an operable element.
18:27:51 <Birkir> rsagent, make minutes
18:28:08 <Birkir> rrsagent make minutes
18:28:43 <Birkir> rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/02-aria-apg-minutes.html Birkir