IRC log of shapes on 2016-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:56:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #shapes
17:56:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-shapes-irc
17:56:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
17:56:28 [Zakim]
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17:56:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SHAPES
17:56:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
17:56:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
17:56:31 [trackbot]
Date: 28 April 2016
17:59:30 [Arnaud]
present+
17:59:33 [Arnaud]
chair: Arnaud
17:59:44 [Arnaud]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.04.28
18:00:24 [hknublau]
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18:00:29 [Arnaud]
regrets: pfps, Dimitris, labra
18:03:54 [Arnaud]
present+ jamsden
18:04:01 [Arnaud]
present+ hknublau
18:04:10 [Arnaud]
present+ ericP
18:04:23 [Arnaud]
present+ kcoyle
18:08:48 [hknublau]
scribenick: hknublau
18:09:08 [hknublau]
Too few people attending, likely a short meeting.
18:09:11 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 21 April 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-shapes-minutes.html
18:11:11 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 21 April 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-shapes-minutes.html
18:12:21 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-152, ISSUE-153, ISSUE-154, ISSUE-155, ISSUE-157
18:12:23 [TallTed]
present+
18:13:16 [jamsden]
q+
18:13:41 [Arnaud]
ack jamsden
18:13:44 [TallTed]
+1
18:13:51 [hknublau]
+1
18:14:25 [hknublau]
jamsden: Could we in the future wrap multiple editorial issues up into a single change set?
18:14:26 [TallTed]
q+
18:14:56 [hknublau]
... esp if the issue includes a suggested change
18:16:29 [hknublau]
jamsden: Proposing to reject the current issues, instead doing reviews that may or may not lead to formal ISSUEs
18:16:30 [ericP]
note that we have zillions (i checked) of emails in the archive
18:16:32 [Arnaud]
ack TallTed
18:16:47 [marky]
marky has joined #shapes
18:17:31 [hknublau]
TallTed: Why reinventing W3C process. Not everyone is familiar with Git.
18:17:53 [hknublau]
... We could use a more interactive editing tool: wikis
18:18:44 [hknublau]
Arnaud: We started using GitHub, because most people/developers now use.
18:19:26 [hknublau]
... W3C was blamed to be old fashioned, gave up to pressure from outside
18:20:07 [hknublau]
... Being in HTML format is better for publishing
18:21:18 [hknublau]
... From an issue management POV, GitHub has issue management built-in. OTOH Tracker is integrated with mailing list.
18:22:09 [hknublau]
... Possible change to process, e.g. all new issues will be OPEN by default.
18:23:09 [hknublau]
... On editorial issues we could agree that they don't need a formal resolution, the parties could just close if they agree outside.
18:24:09 [TallTed]
q+
18:24:33 [hknublau]
... Possible downside: people may abuse this and just close issues, but in that case it can be escalated to WG.
18:25:14 [hknublau]
... Tracker gives permissions to everyone in the WG to change status, it's all tracked.
18:26:28 [hknublau]
... Other groups use GitHub for "simple" issues only, but that turned out to be a nightmare
18:26:55 [Arnaud]
ack TallTed
18:27:20 [hknublau]
TallTed: We could also just say that editorial issues don't need formal ISSUEs.
18:27:47 [hknublau]
Arnaud: But how to make sure that issues have been addressed.
18:27:57 [marky]
q+
18:28:05 [Arnaud]
ack marky
18:29:14 [hknublau]
marky: I am a big fan of using GitHub, I could provide a quick how-to guide for GitHub techniques.
18:30:02 [hknublau]
Arnaud: Pull requests can be very efficient.
18:30:10 [hknublau]
q+
18:30:29 [Arnaud]
ack hknublau
18:32:40 [hknublau]
hknublau: If someone raises issues it would be ideal to also have a proposal for resolving them.
18:33:05 [hknublau]
... Also, it would be good to periodically go through your issues to see if they have been addressed in the meantime.
18:34:32 [jamsden]
q+
18:35:10 [Arnaud]
ack jamsden
18:35:14 [hknublau]
Arnaud: We could have a label [Editorial] in the subject line
18:35:47 [hknublau]
jamsden: Life cycle changes in Tracker does not produce an email notification.
18:37:37 [hknublau]
ericP: Correct. It's working the other way around - Tracker monitors the mailing list.
18:41:08 [hknublau]
Arnaud: We could go through existing tickets and mark them as [Editorial]
18:42:18 [hknublau]
kcoyle: GitHub forking does work reasonably well for editorial changes.
18:44:06 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: Editorial issues should have [Editorial] in the subject line and can be opened and closed by the editors and/or commenters without formal resolution from the WG
18:44:22 [hknublau]
jamsden: We should encourage properly formed issues, they should have recommended changes.
18:45:05 [hknublau]
+1
18:45:08 [TallTed]
+1
18:45:40 [kcoyle]
+1
18:46:10 [marky]
+1
18:47:14 [Arnaud]
ericP: +1
18:47:27 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: Editorial issues should have [Editorial] in the subject line and can be opened and closed by the editors and/or commenters without formal resolution from the WG
18:47:35 [jamsden]
+1
18:48:30 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-152, ISSUE-153, ISSUE-154, ISSUE-155, ISSUE-157
18:49:40 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-126 and ISSUE-127 as no longer relevant
18:49:50 [kcoyle]
+1
18:49:55 [hknublau]
+1
18:50:00 [TallTed]
+1
18:50:22 [jamsden]
=1
18:50:25 [jamsden]
+1
18:50:26 [Arnaud]
ericP: +1
18:50:37 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-126 and ISSUE-127 as no longer relevant
18:51:55 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-110 as addressed by the current draft
18:52:03 [hknublau]
+1
18:52:08 [TallTed]
+1
18:52:23 [Arnaud]
ericP: +1
18:53:03 [kcoyle]
+1
18:53:12 [jamsden]
+1
18:53:19 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-110 as addressed by the current draft
18:53:24 [marky]
+1
18:54:10 [Arnaud]
issue-123
18:54:10 [trackbot]
issue-123 -- Shall we unify the syntax of sh:directType and sh:class? -- open
18:54:10 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/123
18:54:39 [jamsden]
q+
18:55:13 [Arnaud]
ack jamsden
18:55:30 [hknublau]
hknublau: Proposing to drop sh:directType (not too relevant, problems with inferencing)
18:56:24 [hknublau]
jamsden: OSLC Resource Shapes didn't do inferencing and everything was directType, but compatibility with OSLC is less relevant now.
18:57:08 [Labra]
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18:58:00 [hknublau]
Arnaud: Nobody seems to fight for sh:directType, we'll vote next week.
18:58:22 [Arnaud]
issue-141
18:58:22 [trackbot]
issue-141 -- How to represent mixed datatype-or-class ranges -- open
18:58:22 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/141
18:58:41 [hknublau]
q+
18:59:07 [Arnaud]
ack hknublau
18:59:27 [Arnaud]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-141:_Mixed_ranges
19:00:13 [ericP]
q+ to ask if a class constraint is the same as a property constraint on the property rdf:type
19:01:57 [hknublau]
hknublau: Proposing merging sh:datatype and sh:class to sh:type (as in emails)
19:02:02 [jamsden]
q+
19:02:04 [Arnaud]
ack ericP
19:02:04 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask if a class constraint is the same as a property constraint on the property rdf:type
19:07:21 [Arnaud]
ack jamsden
19:07:45 [hknublau]
jamsden: OWL did distinguish the types of properties (Object/DatatypeProperty)
19:08:18 [hknublau]
... SHACL tries to provide constraints in a particular context
19:09:32 [hknublau]
... although I find the simplification appealing, but for structural query purposes I think it goes too far.
19:12:22 [hknublau]
... (following discussion I am OK with this change)
19:13:28 [hknublau]
ericP: Easier to have two properties sh:datatype, sh:class for static analysis
19:13:53 [hknublau]
hknublau: There is also sh:nodeKind for that
19:14:55 [hknublau]
Arnaud: Please go to Proposals page to cast your preference
19:16:52 [Arnaud]
issue-92
19:16:52 [trackbot]
issue-92 -- Should repeated properties be interpreted as additive or conjunctive? -- open
19:16:52 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/92
19:17:10 [hknublau]
ericP: I have tried to encode a version of ShEx with strictly conjunctive semantics.
19:17:50 [hknublau]
... problem: multiple constraints on the same property, and you expect them to work not strictly conjunctively
19:18:30 [hknublau]
... Jose and I wanted to meet about this and make a proposal. Iovka found issues with sh:partition (e.g. putting a disjunction inside of it)
19:19:29 [hknublau]
... SHACL is a bit like OWL, ShEx is more like BNF
19:20:37 [hknublau]
Arnaud: We can leave it at this, waiting for ShEx people.
19:21:24 [jamsden]
78 is still open
19:22:36 [Arnaud]
issue-105
19:22:36 [trackbot]
issue-105 -- SHACL SPARQL constraints depend on namespaces in a graph, which is not defined -- open
19:22:36 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/105
19:23:57 [Arnaud]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Apr/0177.html
19:26:50 [hknublau]
hknublau: Explaining proposal with a property at sh:sparql to point at prefix declarations, and these declaration may extend each other.
19:26:54 [marky]
+q
19:27:05 [Arnaud]
ack marky
19:27:33 [hknublau]
marky: Who is the audience of this simplification.
19:27:41 [hknublau]
Arnaud: The author of the SHACL document
19:29:08 [hknublau]
... latest proposal addresses part of the problems - explicit pointer at prefixes
19:29:13 [jamsden]
q+
19:29:27 [Arnaud]
ack jamsden
19:29:27 [TallTed]
q+
19:29:59 [hknublau]
jamsden: I continue to believe there are two languages here (SPARQL and SHACL) and there is no relationship between the two
19:30:29 [hknublau]
... to do this properly we'd need an abstract syntax tree in RDF
19:30:38 [Arnaud]
ack TallTed
19:31:25 [hknublau]
TallTed: SPARQL spec defines explicitly that prefix duplicates are invalid
19:32:01 [hknublau]
... SHACL engine needs to look at existing PREFIXes, just to make something that isn't a big problem a bit easier.
19:32:12 [ericP]
to TallTed's point, "A prefix declared with the PREFIX keyword may not be re-declared in the same query."
19:32:55 [Arnaud]
trackbot, end meeting
19:32:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
19:32:55 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, jamsden, hknublau, ericP, kcoyle, TallTed
19:33:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:33:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
19:33:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
19:33:04 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items