16:57:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xproc
16:57:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-xproc-irc
16:57:41 <Norm> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:57:43 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
16:57:45 <Norm> Date: 27 Apr 2016
16:57:47 <Norm> Meeting: 294
16:57:49 <Norm> Chair: Norm
16:57:51 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
16:57:53 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
16:57:55 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2016/04/27-agenda
17:00:58 <jfuller> jfuller has joined #xproc
17:01:34 <ht> ht has joined #xproc
17:03:46 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
17:03:50 <Norm> Present: Norm, Henry, Jim, Alex, Murray
17:04:02 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
17:04:02 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2016/04/27-agenda
17:04:08 <Norm> Accepted.
17:04:12 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
17:04:12 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2016/04/20-minutes
17:04:16 <Norm> Accepted.
17:04:20 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting, 4 May 2016
17:04:29 <Norm> None heard.
17:04:34 <Norm> Advance warning: 11 and 18 May canceled?
17:04:54 <Norm> Canceled.
17:05:42 <Norm> Henry: I won't be available for the four weeks following 18 May: 21 May; 1, 8, and 15 June.
17:05:55 <Norm> s/21/25/
17:06:20 <Norm> Topic: Review of open action items
17:06:46 <Norm> Alex: No progress.
17:07:13 <ht> Alex, once again you are very quiet. . .
17:07:37 <Norm> Topic: Are we getting anywhere?
17:08:23 <Norm> Norm: Is this worth continuing?
17:08:35 <Norm> ... I don't know how to motivate the group to make a decision.
17:09:03 <Norm> Henry: I remain motivated to take the semantics work I started in Prague and complete that.
17:09:15 <Norm> ... I think we could reach consensus on that faster than on the concrete syntax.
17:09:42 <Norm> Jim: There are two threads here: the WG is small and constrained by time. We've put in a lot of effort up to this point.
17:10:02 <Norm> ... From my point of view, I'd rather look at the second issue: we're trying to get to a starting point. We have a lot of inter-related
17:10:27 <Norm> ... topics pushing and pulling without coming to resolution. Talking once a week can't crack this nut. We could spawn off a few email
17:10:58 <Norm> ... threads but each thread tends to peter out. I would like to get some output, be it a note or an actual spec. How to get there
17:11:14 <Norm> ... isn't going to happen with email conversation. It'd require a couple of sessions at a very high sampling rate.
17:11:34 <Norm> ... What's being proposed doesn't seem vastly different. There are just different communication styles.
17:11:49 <Norm> ... If we did three days in a row with a couple of hour sprints, that might work better.
17:11:58 <Norm> ... Of course it might not work, but it's worth a try.
17:12:41 <Norm> Alex: I think we're moving in vastly different directions. We have competing concerns and no community involvement.
17:12:57 <Norm> ... Even though we all give each other good ideas and good feedback, I think we're wasting our time.
17:13:20 <Norm> ... We can do cool stuff, but we don't need a WG for that.
17:13:34 <Norm> ... The success of XProc 1 has been underwhelming and where do we go from there.
17:13:39 <Norm> ... What I want to do with data flow programming are not the people using XProc 1.
17:14:58 <Norm> Norm: I propose we give up, close the WG, do our own thing for 6-12 months, and if we get to a place where we think we have something to standardize and we think the W3C is the place to do it, we come back then.
17:18:18 <Norm> Murray: I don't know what happened last week, but I'm surprised by what just happened.
17:18:34 <Norm> ... All of a sudden after years and months of slow and tedious progress, something jumped out. And it looked interesting.
17:18:45 <Norm> ... And we were all energized and talking about it and today you're saying walk away.
17:19:47 <Norm> ... Can you summarize what happened?
17:20:34 <Norm> Norm: Alex made some apt observations about the state of the world: no one cares.
17:20:35 <Norm> Murray: Okay.
17:21:02 <Norm> Henry: I object. Closing the WG is more trouble than its worth. We can just stop meeting for a while and see who notices.
17:21:34 <Norm> ... Let's take the summer off.
17:21:52 <Norm> Norm: Ok, we have a CWI workshop scheduled for September in Amsterdam.
17:22:20 <Norm> Henry: Six weeks before that workshop, let's have a "call for papers" on whether XProc is dead.
17:22:48 <Norm> Norm: did I minute that correctly?
17:22:50 <Norm> Henry: Yep.
17:23:36 <Norm> Norm: Ok. I propose that our next meeting is 10 August.
17:24:01 <Norm> Henry:  More positively: We need to hear arguments for ways for ward for a flow language +/- a focus on XML at the W3C.
17:24:34 <Norm> Murray: What happens to the work we've done?
17:24:41 <Norm> Henry: I hope Alex and Norm present what they've done.
17:24:58 <Norm> Alex: We can use the data flow monthly call as a venue to get together and chat.
17:26:18 <Norm> Topic: Any other business?
17:26:25 <Norm> None heard.
17:26:37 <jfuller> ta for now
17:26:57 <Norm> "It's too early to start drinking. It's too early to start drinking. It's too early to start drinking. It's too early to start drinking. ..."
17:27:40 <Norm> Norm has joined #xproc
17:27:47 <Norm> rrsagent, set logs world visible
17:27:49 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:27:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-xproc-minutes.html Norm