15:46:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
15:46:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-apa-irc
15:46:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:46:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #apa
15:46:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:46:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:46:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:46:28 <trackbot> Date: 27 April 2016
15:49:06 <janina> agenda?
15:49:10 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
15:49:10 <janina> agenda+ TPAC 2016 Planning [See Below]
15:49:10 <janina> agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8
15:49:10 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
15:49:11 <janina> agenda+ CSS -- Updates and Next Steps
15:49:13 <janina> agenda+ HTML Resurrecting H1-H6?  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2016Apr/0053.html
15:49:16 <janina> agenda+ Action-2023 Pointer Lock http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2016Apr/0033.html
15:49:19 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:49:21 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings
15:49:24 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:57:09 <janina>  zakim, next item
15:57:09 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
16:00:08 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
16:00:51 <janina> regrets: Cynthia, Leonie, Gottfried, John
16:00:58 <fesch> fesch has joined #apa
16:00:59 <janina> present+ Janina
16:01:17 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:01:21 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:04:19 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:05:00 <fesch> zakim, take up item 1
16:05:00 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
16:05:51 <fesch> js: we need to need to think what we want to do with flexbox... CSS was hoping to go to proposal in May
16:06:08 <fesch> js: what are our timelines... and usual checkins
16:06:45 <fesch> jd: I don't know if I replied to presentation people...
16:07:49 <fesch> js: have a good relationship and will work with them in the future
16:07:53 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:07:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC 2016 Planning" taken up [from See Below]
16:08:00 <joanie> s/don't know if/thought I had, but do not see any evidence that I/
16:08:23 <fesch> js: have a TPAC page :)
16:08:40 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
16:08:44 <fesch> js: organizer assured we will have two rooms available
16:09:12 <fesch> js: COGA is planning to meet ... overlap with WCAG and ARIA
16:10:05 <fesch> js: discusses schedule - Michael is putting a list of open issues
16:10:24 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:10:24 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8" taken up [from janina]
16:11:07 <fesch> action 20021
16:11:13 <fesch> action-2001
16:11:13 <trackbot> action-2001 -- Léonie Watson to Review gamepad https://www.w3.org/tr/gamepad/ -- due 2016-02-10 -- CLOSED
16:11:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2001
16:11:18 <ShaneM> I am involved on the annotation specs
16:11:18 <fesch> action-2002
16:11:18 <trackbot> action-2002 -- Fred Esch to Review social web protocols https://www.w3.org/tr/social-web-protocols/ -- due 2016-01-20 -- CLOSED
16:11:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2002
16:11:24 <fesch> action-2011
16:11:24 <trackbot> action-2011 -- Janina Sajka to Janina to draft examples of how the hand-wavey stuff in CSS Transitions accessibility statement could be solidified -- due 2016-04-13 -- OPEN
16:11:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2011
16:12:15 <fesch> js: haven't worked on examples - or I can point them to minutes... need something more concrete
16:12:45 <Rich> Rich has joined #apa
16:12:54 <fesch> mc: they came back and thought things are fine, said we could write examples...
16:13:09 <fesch> mb: I am good with CSS
16:13:56 <fesch> js: statement does not go far enough... if you can look at the spec and provide some possible examples - will send a ptr to minutes...
16:15:30 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:15:30 <Zakim> agendum 4. "new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html" taken up [from janina]
16:18:36 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/credential-management-1/ Credential Management Level 1
16:18:47 <MichaelC> action: fred to review https://www.w3.org/TR/credential-management-1/ Credential Management Level 1
16:18:47 <trackbot> 'fred' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., fesch, fredvogel).
16:18:55 <MichaelC> action: fesch to review https://www.w3.org/TR/credential-management-1/ Credential Management Level 1
16:18:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2031 - Review https://www.w3.org/tr/credential-management-1/ credential management level 1 [on Fred Esch - due 2016-05-04].
16:19:18 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/mediastream-recording/ MediaStream Recording
16:19:43 <MichaelC> action: janina to review https://www.w3.org/TR/mediastream-recording/ MediaStream Recording
16:19:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2032 - Review https://www.w3.org/tr/mediastream-recording/ mediastream recording [on Janina Sajka - due 2016-05-04].
16:20:30 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/tracking-compliance/ Tracking Compliance and Scope
16:21:59 <fesch> sm: should be something in the chrome...
16:22:35 <MichaelC> action: shane to review https://www.w3.org/TR/tracking-compliance/ Tracking Compliance and Scope
16:22:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2033 - Review https://www.w3.org/tr/tracking-compliance/ tracking compliance and scope [on Shane McCarron - due 2016-05-04].
16:22:43 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:22:52 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/resource-timing/ Resource Timing Level 1
16:23:35 <fesch> mc: no need to review...
16:23:48 <ShaneM> me ooooh the tracking spec correctly uses the Oxford comma and e.g., !
16:24:19 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:24:19 <Zakim> agendum 5. "CSS -- Updates and Next Steps" taken up [from janina]
16:25:57 <fesch> js: flexbox what is our next steps, we need to formally figure out where APA stands... will APA object? Or left up to individual companies?
16:26:32 <fesch> js: we will help develop another AAM...
16:26:58 <fesch> js: MC will make a stub document to collect issues from CSS
16:27:35 <fesch> js: at a minimum flexbox should mention that they should implement an AAM, even if one doesn't yet exist,
16:28:23 <fesch> js: CSS has said they would write best practices... what is our (APA) bottom line, noting we want to avoid an objection, want to know what our red lines ares
16:29:11 <fesch> js: what are our red lines?  We may want to have minutes, but even a survey to +1/-1 or comment on a position
16:29:12 <janina> q?
16:30:28 <MichaelC> -> https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/master/css-aam/css-aam.html Stub of CSS-AAM
16:30:29 <fesch> jd: I would love an AAM style spec for CSS, there are various things the user agent is taking their best guess - at what the author is trying to do
16:30:44 <fesch> jd: CSS should be able to tell AT how to expose stuff
16:30:58 <Rich> q+
16:31:20 <fesch> js: we may have a time issue, but we may need to find the problem spots...
16:31:50 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-apa-minutes.html MichaelC
16:31:52 <fesch> rs: I agree with all that, CSS needs someone working with us...
16:31:56 <MichaelC> q+
16:32:23 <MichaelC> ack r
16:32:24 <fesch> rs: best practices aren't sufficient, they need to suggest what will happen for AT...
16:32:34 <MichaelC> chair: Janina
16:33:14 <Rich> User agents MUST expose information to assistive technologies in the order specified by CSS Flexbox.
16:33:17 <fesch> rs: put in spec, the rest can be in a AAm
16:33:58 <MichaelC> ack me
16:34:12 <fesch> mc: there is a stub for a CSS AAM which I was going to tell the editors next week
16:34:22 <fesch> js: need to make sure issues get listed
16:35:00 <fesch> js: what do people think of a survey?
16:35:43 <fesch> js: if we put a line in the sand, we need to have our ducks in a row, and make sure we have a position and consensus
16:36:08 <fesch> mc: not sure we have a position yet, only what a few of us put together
16:36:23 <fesch> js: we could ask about that?
16:37:24 <fesch> mc: that there was active work on an AAM... and I don't think we agreed on particular feature be implemented...
16:37:38 <fesch> rs: I think this has gone on ...
16:37:51 <fesch> mc: they would start work on  x
16:38:31 <fesch> mc: that we would start on an AAM... and some of the bigger things - we have a place to work on navigation... and if we could get all this stuff under way...
16:39:11 <fesch> mc: it doesn't make sense to hold up a spec, if everyone (CSS included) are working solving it in good faith..
16:39:27 <ShaneM> q+ to say that it might be out of process
16:40:13 <ShaneM> q-
16:40:19 <fesch> js: assuming an agreement to work on these documents including an AAM, is it appropriate to ask them to put a requirement in the flexbox spec...
16:40:52 <fesch> mc: there is a procedural problem, having a dependency in one spec on a non-existent spec
16:41:10 <fesch> js: we could go to director...
16:41:21 <fesch> mc: those are the options -
16:41:31 <fesch> rs: would we accept a should?
16:42:02 <fesch> rs: IBM will probably object, unless they put in...
16:42:57 <fesch> mc: if we got a director to accept a dependency on a non existent spec, it probably won't be accepted because the AAM doesn't exist.
16:43:15 <fesch> mc: we don't have anything more than a strong recommendation.
16:43:25 <fesch> rs: why are we being bashful?
16:43:42 <fesch> rs: we have asked them many times
16:43:54 <fesch> rs: we gave in on the keyboard support...
16:44:22 <fesch> mc: I am being bashful then I want to preserve a good working relationship
16:44:34 <fesch> rs: why is this unreasonable?
16:44:49 <fesch> rs: so it would be ok if it were a SHOUL
16:44:51 <fesch> D
16:45:12 <fesch> mc: yes, we could even ask them to make an errata when the AAM is done
16:45:42 <fesch> js: likelihood a SHOULD is the best we can ask for
16:45:57 <fesch> js: asking for a SHOULD seems reasonable
16:47:16 <fesch> js: 2 questions - draft sentence from Rich and a strong recommendation (SHOULD)
16:47:32 <fesch> js: that is not a lot of asks
16:47:48 <fesch> mc: should is reasonable
16:48:00 <fesch> js: they need to work with us on AAM
16:48:19 <fesch> mc: code share doesn't support a task force...
16:49:11 <fesch> mc: we should get some of the CSS WG interested in accessibility
16:50:02 <fesch> js: and the last thing is they are working on their good faith best practices document
16:51:19 <fesch> fe: based on SVG task force, you are only going to get a small group... and the main working group won't be knowledgeable on it
16:52:24 <fesch> js: so is a task force a good way to do it?
16:52:28 <fesch> fe: yes
16:52:49 <fesch> fe: pain points is when you need their specs changed
16:53:18 <fesch> js: we want to keep a good working relationship
16:53:28 <fesch> js: any remaining thoughts?
16:53:43 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:53:43 <Zakim> agendum 6. "HTML Resurrecting H1-H6?  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2016Apr/0053.html" taken up [from janina]
16:55:17 <fesch> js: two approaches to doing headings in HTML ... H1-H6 then the HTML 2 approach H1s and local headings... looking to drop the XHTML approach as it not implemented
16:55:46 <fesch> mc: It is the idea that you can calculate heading levels ...
16:56:21 <fesch> rs: if you mix both paradigms wont you have problems?
16:56:45 <fesch> rs: people use heading incorrectly for styling
16:57:05 <fesch> mc: shame to get rid of heading algorithms...
16:57:35 <fesch> mc: using h elements are a pain with a template, would rather have a calculated one...
16:57:48 <fesch> rs: is better to get user agent support?
16:58:25 <fesch> mc: chaals is pointing out that AT need different info from what you see, and authors aren't going to be aware of the problem
16:59:00 <fesch> mc: it was the browser is sending to the APIs but they are not sending heading levels to the API based on calculated levels...
16:59:27 <fesch> mc: a need for actual calculation is needed for the API but browsers aren't doing that
16:59:49 <fesch> mc: if HTML weren't dropping this, then it could go in the HTML AAM.
17:00:02 <fesch> rs: can we ask to not throw it out?
17:00:19 <fesch> mc: Might, but they may come back with a timeline...
17:00:30 <fesch> mc: unsure of where it will go...
17:00:57 <fesch> js: have seen a lot of bad H1-H6 usage...
17:01:19 <fesch> mc: they are saying it should be removed because no one uses it
17:01:36 <fesch> js: should we ask the HTML AAM people this?
17:01:48 <fesch> rs: have talked to AT vendors about this?
17:02:03 <fesch> js: there is one here...
17:02:59 <fesch> jd: I don't think an AT would change...
17:03:14 <fesch> js: should the HTML AAM address this?
17:03:43 <fesch> jd: their calculated by what is in the DOM?
17:04:09 <fesch> jd: any time you don't just take what the author provided, you may have a problem
17:04:38 <fesch> js: our action is to ask the HTML AAM whether it would be worth trying to keep
17:05:24 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-apa-minutes.html fesch
17:24:17 <chaals> chaals has joined #apa
17:49:12 <Rich> Rich has joined #apa
17:58:10 <Rich> Rich has left #apa
18:28:45 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: APA Web Payments Teleconference; Monday 2 May at 17:00Z; Webex 648 942 488