IRC log of dwbp on 2016-04-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:49:29 [RRSAgent]
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12:49:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/22-dwbp-irc
12:49:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs 351
12:49:31 [Zakim]
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12:49:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DWBP
12:49:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
12:49:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
12:49:34 [trackbot]
Date: 22 April 2016
12:51:57 [phila]
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12:56:30 [newton]
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12:59:10 [annette_g]
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12:59:37 [newton]
Good morning
13:00:17 [PWinstanley]
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13:00:40 [PWinstanley_]
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13:00:55 [PWinstanley_]
present+ PWinstanley
13:01:27 [newton]
present+ newton
13:01:50 [phila]
zakim, code?
13:01:50 [Zakim]
I have been told this is DWBP
13:03:09 [BernadetteLoscio]
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13:03:21 [Caroline_]
Present+ Caroline_
13:03:42 [BernadetteLoscio]
Present+ BernadetteLoscio
13:04:12 [phila]
zakim, this is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mfd8626d4dcc14c87bfbe980f229e9e0a or +1-617-324-0000 plus 647 415 866
13:04:12 [Zakim]
got it, phila
13:04:21 [phila]
zakim, save this description
13:04:21 [Zakim]
this conference description has been saved, phila
13:04:27 [phila]
zakim, code?
13:04:27 [Zakim]
I have been told this is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mfd8626d4dcc14c87bfbe980f229e9e0a or +1-617-324-0000 plus 647 415 866
13:04:28 [deirdrelee]
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13:04:36 [phila]
chair: deirdrelee
13:05:07 [phila]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20160422
13:05:11 [phila]
regrets+ Hadley, Yaso
13:05:14 [laufer]
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13:05:21 [phila]
regrets+ Antoine, Riccardo, Eric
13:05:38 [deirdrelee]
hi
13:05:53 [phila]
zakim, code?
13:05:53 [Zakim]
I have been told this is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mfd8626d4dcc14c87bfbe980f229e9e0a or +1-617-324-0000 plus 647 415 866
13:06:15 [phila]
phila has changed the topic to: DWBP Weekly telecon
13:07:28 [laufer]
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13:09:18 [Caroline_]
scribe: Caroline_
13:09:20 [phila]
scribe: Caroline_
13:09:25 [phila]
scribeNick: Caroline_
13:09:26 [laufer]
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13:09:34 [phila]
PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-dwbp-minutes
13:09:37 [laufer]
present+ laufer
13:09:39 [Caroline_]
+1
13:09:42 [BernadetteLoscio]
+1
13:09:49 [PWinstanley_]
+1
13:09:51 [newton]
+1
13:09:51 [deirdrelee]
0
13:09:52 [annette_g]
+1
13:09:54 [laufer]
+1
13:09:57 [phila]
+1
13:09:58 [phila]
RESOLUTION: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-dwbp-minutes
13:10:27 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: we will focus on BP document this week
13:10:39 [phila]
Topic: issues from recent comments
13:10:47 [phila]
-> https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Comments_to_be_considered_before_publishing_the_last_working_draft Issue list
13:10:54 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we would like to thank everyone for the feedback and detailed review
13:10:58 [Caroline_]
... thank you a lot!
13:11:35 [Caroline_]
..w the editors discussed the comments and we created this table to track the comments and have proposals and resolutions for each comment https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Comments_to_be_considered_before_publishing_the_last_working_draft
13:12:06 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:12:07 [Caroline_]
... some of the comments have a resolution and the corresponding commits are there
13:12:10 [deirdrelee]
q+
13:12:19 [Caroline_]
... we still have a lot of comments we need to address
13:12:33 [Caroline_]
... we have some questions for the group that will help us to continue updating it
13:12:52 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: there were discussions around timeframe last week
13:13:09 [Caroline_]
... the idea is when these comments are closed we can freeze the document?
13:13:11 [deirdrelee]
ack q
13:13:13 [phila]
q+ to talk about CR/LC
13:13:14 [deirdrelee]
ack deirdrelee
13:13:18 [phila]
ack me
13:13:18 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about CR/LC
13:13:32 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: yes, because we had the document frozen until Wednesday night
13:13:44 [Caroline_]
phila: we will vote on a last draft
13:14:01 [Caroline_]
... we should resolve our comments internally before publishing it
13:14:21 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: Carol and Newton if want to add something just interrupt me :)
13:14:22 [BernadetteLoscio]
Should we write subtitles using the imperative mode?
13:14:38 [Caroline_]
... our first comment is a question: Should we write subtitles using the imperative mode?
13:14:49 [BernadetteLoscio]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eSTt3A6kTfXYTcVMt5VGDardLIk8b7FnsgENpCuNRBA/edit#gid=0
13:14:51 [Caroline_]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eSTt3A6kTfXYTcVMt5VGDardLIk8b7FnsgENpCuNRBA/edit#gid=0
13:15:05 [Caroline_]
.... this table has all the BPs and their subtitles
13:15:39 [Caroline_]
... if we have to chance the subtitles using the imperative mode we will need help from the Native Speakers to review all of them
13:15:43 [phila]
q+ to ask what "Metadata must be provided for both human users and computer applications" becomes
13:15:49 [Caroline_]
s/chance/change
13:15:53 [phila]
ack me
13:15:53 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to ask what "Metadata must be provided for both human users and computer applications" becomes
13:16:01 [phila]
Metadata must be provided for both human users and computer applications.
13:16:11 [Caroline_]
phila: regarding this example above
13:16:23 [Caroline_]
... if you take out the word must
13:16:28 [annette_g]
yes, that's correct
13:16:39 [phila]
SO it becomes Provide metadata for both human users and computer applications.
13:16:41 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: it would be "provide metadata for both human users and computer applications
13:17:04 [Caroline_]
... some BPs will need to have something added so won't be the same as the title
13:17:21 [annette_g]
q+
13:17:31 [Caroline_]
phila: if that is the case my suggestion might be that if the title itself is already nice and short don't bother with the subtitle at all
13:17:51 [deirdrelee]
ack annette_g
13:17:53 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: or we could say provide data provenance for both humand and computer applications
13:18:01 [BernadetteLoscio]
q+
13:18:14 [deirdrelee]
ack BernadetteLoscio
13:18:16 [Caroline_]
annette_g: there is probably something we can say for each BP that will be useful for the users
13:18:26 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: I think the subtitles should be short
13:18:40 [Caroline_]
... because if it is long it would be almost as the "Why"
13:18:56 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: all subtitles will be reviewd but they will be capt short
13:19:10 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we need to have a Native Speaker review again
13:19:21 [Caroline_]
... before puting in the document
13:19:27 [annette_g]
+1 for native speaker review. I'm willing to help.
13:19:35 [phila]
annette_g - how about you and me split the doc and we do the new subtitles?
13:19:41 [annette_g]
sure
13:19:41 [Caroline_]
... please help us changin this table https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eSTt3A6kTfXYTcVMt5VGDardLIk8b7FnsgENpCuNRBA/edit#gid=0
13:19:48 [Caroline_]
thank you annette_g :)
13:20:29 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: let's use this table and then when it is finished we put on the document
13:20:35 [Caroline_]
phila: annette_g and I will do it
13:20:42 [Caroline_]
thank you phila and annette_g :)
13:21:10 [BernadetteLoscio]
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/dwbp-example.html
13:21:16 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: about the human-readable example (should we include the example in the doc or keep it as a separate file?)
13:21:37 [BernadetteLoscio]
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#DataLicense
13:21:42 [Caroline_]
... when there is human readable example, for example in BP 5 we link to the example http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/dwbp-example.html
13:21:51 [phila]
action: phila to provide imperative subtitles for BPs 1-19
13:21:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-273 - Provide imperative subtitles for bps 1-19 [on Phil Archer - due 2016-04-29].
13:22:03 [Caroline_]
... it was not clear that we were showing data license, or the information about location parameters
13:22:07 [phila]
action: annette to provide imperative subtitles for BPs 20-37
13:22:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-274 - Provide imperative subtitles for bps 20-37 [on Annette Greiner - due 2016-04-29].
13:22:19 [Caroline_]
... the suggestion was to include the human readable directly in the document
13:22:26 [Caroline_]
... I am not sure it is a good idea
13:22:29 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:22:37 [Caroline_]
... newton put links to each fragment
13:22:57 [Caroline_]
... if you want to see the structural metadata the link we will take you there
13:23:18 [Caroline_]
... we would split the HTML if we put them in the document
13:23:24 [annette_g]
q+
13:23:38 [deirdrelee]
ack annette_g
13:23:41 [Caroline_]
.... do you the ink we should put just the HTML text in the doc?
13:23:55 [Caroline_]
annette_g: I like the metadata document
13:24:12 [Caroline_]
... there are a few lines that you can't find
13:24:24 [Caroline_]
... I would suggest that ??
13:24:40 [phila]
q+ to make a slightly diff suggestion
13:25:18 [Caroline_]
annette_g: maybe put something bold in the BP doc itself
13:25:29 [newton]
1+
13:25:30 [newton]
q+
13:25:48 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: for the structure metadata we could keep in the HTML, for example
13:25:59 [deirdrelee]
present+ deirdrelee
13:26:01 [Caroline_]
annette_g: when it is a bigger text you can keep the HTML
13:26:08 [phila]
ack me
13:26:08 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to make a slightly diff suggestion
13:26:16 [Caroline_]
phila: I am happy with the HTML
13:26:30 [Caroline_]
... another alternative would be to have a table
13:26:43 [Caroline_]
... which BP is relevant in the HTML example
13:26:48 [Caroline_]
... that would be more work
13:26:59 [Caroline_]
... I am happy with your suggestion
13:27:18 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: the idea is to show how it would look after you finished
13:27:41 [Caroline_]
newton: I like phila suggestion
13:28:02 [Caroline_]
phila: newton if you want to try it you could do annotation, light box, etc
13:28:08 [Caroline_]
... it would take more time
13:28:20 [Caroline_]
... you would enjoy doing but it would take time
13:28:31 [Caroline_]
newton: I will try doing it and I will share with you
13:28:52 [Caroline_]
.... we could point to the URL fragment the specifc texts
13:28:54 [PWinstanley]
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13:29:03 [PWinstanley]
present+ PWinstanley
13:29:06 [Caroline_]
phila: sometimes that doesn't work
13:29:08 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:29:11 [deirdrelee]
ack newton
13:29:15 [Caroline_]
newton: I will try to change
13:29:23 [Caroline_]
annette_g: you can refer the link
13:29:29 [phila]
present+ phila
13:29:32 [Caroline_]
... it might be more geek
13:29:50 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: talking about the description of the example
13:29:52 [Caroline_]
... Discuss basic example. Should we change to include other transito modes?
13:30:18 [Caroline_]
... we have to be careful
13:30:20 [annette_g]
q+
13:30:30 [Caroline_]
... I don't know how to rewrite it in a way that is short
13:30:44 [Caroline_]
... that we would have example considering the transit mod
13:30:48 [Caroline_]
s/mod/mode
13:31:01 [Caroline_]
annette_g: we just have to not limite it when we first describe it
13:31:16 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: are you talking about the description of the example?
13:31:31 [Caroline_]
annette_g: if the description is only abobut buses we will limit it
13:31:42 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we will change the first line than
13:31:56 [Caroline_]
... instead of buses stops what do you suggest?
13:32:08 [Caroline_]
annette_g: we can say transit stops instead of bus stops
13:32:25 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: when you go to the example it is only for bus stops
13:32:31 [phila]
make it 'Transit stops' not just 'bus stops' (all bus stops are transit stops)
13:32:38 [Caroline_]
... the example for everything
13:32:52 [Caroline_]
annette_g: some examples need to be more general
13:33:12 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:33:14 [deirdrelee]
ack annette_g
13:33:16 [Caroline_]
... I would say "he is in charge of publishing data about the transit system"
13:33:35 [newton]
yep
13:33:42 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: the editors will discuss that and see if could be more general
13:34:07 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: What should we do with the BP about Content Negotiation? Shoul we keep it or move to BP 14?
13:34:18 [Caroline_]
... about providing multiple formats
13:34:29 [Caroline_]
... we think we should keep the BP about content negotiation
13:34:50 [Caroline_]
annette_g: as a BP I don't think it is clearly a BP to always use content negotiation
13:35:00 [newton]
we could link them, instead of merging them
13:35:08 [Caroline_]
... among developers it is not at all
13:35:15 [Caroline_]
phila: what are the main objections?
13:35:30 [Caroline_]
annette_g: the main one is that it doesn't allow someone to share the link
13:35:39 [Caroline_]
... you have to tell them taht you use content negotiation
13:35:56 [Caroline_]
phila: you give people a directly serialization
13:36:07 [Caroline_]
... if you take of the file extension
13:36:20 [laufer]
+1 to annette claim that it is an implementation issue
13:36:33 [Caroline_]
annette_g: if people want to do content negotiation let them avoid poiting URI
13:36:40 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:36:47 [Caroline_]
... can you point to any place that is actually doing that?
13:36:54 [Caroline_]
phila: yes, we do all the time
13:37:00 [Caroline_]
... our namespace doc will do it
13:37:23 [Caroline_]
newton: is very useful when you are requestiong the specific resource
13:37:35 [phila]
-> https://www.w3.org/ns/org, also available https://www.w3.org/ns/org.rdf, https://www.w3.org/ns/org.ttl
13:37:37 [Caroline_]
... we can likn the BPs and put in the content negotiation
13:37:47 [Caroline_]
... if you can provide the specifc URL
13:38:16 [phila]
And https://www.w3.org/ns/org.n3 if you want the triples
13:38:48 [Caroline_]
annette_g: my reading on the subject has not came up yet
13:38:55 [BernadetteLoscio]
maybe we can do the other way around in BP14 we make a link to BP21
13:39:09 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: annette_g do you want to complete remove the BP?
13:39:11 [phila]
And elsewhere data.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/doc/postcodeunit/IP83PX (add .ttl, xml, .json)
13:39:24 [Caroline_]
annette_g: I think we could leave it there, I just want to know if there are people doing it
13:39:33 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: maybe puting more examples
13:39:54 [laufer]
it is a way of providing multiple formats
13:39:59 [Caroline_]
newton: a lot of RDF stars like virtuoso and Jena Fusek use content negotiation
13:40:13 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: even the extension for DCAT
13:40:27 [PWinstanley]
http://statistics.gov.scot/data/social-work-staffing.ttl
13:40:28 [Caroline_]
newton: I think it is a good practice for the machine
13:40:36 [laufer]
it is an implementation issue...
13:40:40 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: the human readble it is also used
13:40:44 [Caroline_]
annette_g: let's go then
13:41:02 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we will keep the BP then
13:41:12 [Caroline_]
... we will make a link from BP 14 to BP 21
13:41:30 [Caroline_]
... then I have two questions related
13:41:56 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:42:09 [Caroline_]
... should we say the multiple access should be availvabe..
13:42:15 [Caroline_]
annette_g: no
13:42:32 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: in our BPs we say that we should have bulk donwload and APIs
13:42:52 [Caroline_]
... aren't they multiple access mechanisms?
13:43:23 [Caroline_]
... when I have a dataset I will have just one way to access the dataset?
13:43:34 [laufer]
we have two things here... what and how
13:43:42 [Caroline_]
annette_g: I need to be convinced that I need to take to trouble to do both ways
13:43:52 [laufer]
what to get... and how to get...
13:44:00 [Caroline_]
... the reason to do multiple formats is that people will have more than one format
13:44:10 [Caroline_]
... you have that trhough the API
13:44:17 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: I am not saying this is a BP
13:44:22 [Caroline_]
... it is just the description
13:44:26 [laufer]
q+
13:44:35 [Caroline_]
annette_g: then you don't have to use the word should
13:44:46 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: the problem is with should?
13:44:57 [BernadetteLoscio]
multiple dataset access mechanisms can be available
13:45:03 [Caroline_]
... if we say datasets and mechanisms "can" be available
13:45:06 [deirdrelee]
ack laufer
13:45:10 [Caroline_]
laufer: I think we are talking about 2 things
13:45:18 [phila]
q+ to talk about timing
13:45:19 [Caroline_]
... how to get and ??
13:45:34 [Caroline_]
... when we have bulk donwload someone has to give some time of data
13:45:43 [Caroline_]
... or how will you provide this?
13:45:57 [Caroline_]
... 2 things: what to get and how to get
13:46:10 [BernadetteLoscio]
q+
13:46:17 [Caroline_]
s/??/what
13:46:47 [phila]
ack me
13:46:47 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about timing
13:46:52 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: are you satisfied with annette_g's proposal sayhing that the word will change for can instead of should?
13:46:56 [laufer]
i a having problems with audio... sorry
13:47:00 [laufer]
its ok for me
13:47:13 [Caroline_]
phila: we just began the few questions
13:47:26 [Caroline_]
... how are we going to handle the other discussions?
13:47:34 [Caroline_]
... because we are having a great discussion
13:47:50 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: if we continue the discussion next week we might have infinite looping
13:48:03 [Caroline_]
... we should make a timeframe to address them
13:48:04 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:48:14 [deirdrelee]
ack BernadetteLoscio
13:48:27 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we have several questions to annette_g so maybe we can have a chat with her today or monday to clarify these questions
13:48:37 [Caroline_]
... also we need help to rewrite some BPs
13:49:03 [Caroline_]
... and maybe this is a task to annette_g because a lot of questions were from her about data access
13:49:36 [Caroline_]
... since annette_g is the one who really knows about data access I would like to know if she is okay with dealing with her comments on that
13:49:55 [Caroline_]
... it would be more usefull if you may change
13:50:12 [Caroline_]
annette_g: I gave you some comments, do you want to talk on skype?
13:50:18 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: yes, thank you
13:50:27 [Caroline_]
... some comments we can do the update
13:50:51 [Caroline_]
... but for the data access would be more productive if you could work on your comments since you know that subject better
13:51:01 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we will talk later then :)
13:52:16 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: What should we do with the BP Use Standardized Terms and Reuse Vocabularies? Should we merge? (see Antoine's message)
13:52:38 [Caroline_]
... Antoine mentioned we could merge these BPs
13:52:54 [Caroline_]
... I am not sure if would be clear if we keep as it is
13:53:06 [Caroline_]
... if we decide to merge them we would have to rewrite
13:53:10 [deirdrelee]
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#MetadataStandardized
13:53:12 [Caroline_]
... BPs 15 and 16
13:53:19 [deirdrelee]
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#ReuseVocabularies
13:53:19 [BernadetteLoscio]
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#MetadataStandardized
13:53:22 [Caroline_]
... that we are talking about
13:54:07 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we need Antoine's feedback to know if he agrees with the BPs
13:54:34 [Caroline_]
... I am affraid that this might not be enough to clarify the difference between the 2 BPs
13:54:45 [deirdrelee]
q?
13:54:46 [Caroline_]
... instead of writing a new BP
13:55:10 [Caroline_]
annette_g: mostly keeping BP 15 and adding BP 16 to be part of that
13:55:16 [Caroline_]
phila: it makes sense to me
13:55:21 [laufer]
+1
13:55:26 [Caroline_]
... maybe Antoine has something else to say
13:55:48 [Caroline_]
annette_g: the sense I get from reading Antoine's email is taht he agrees we could merge them
13:55:55 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we need his feedback
13:56:29 [Caroline_]
phila: if you are editors able to spend time with annette_g and Antoine I might join and we see how far we can get before next week
13:56:41 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we will work on this BP and try to talk with Antoine as well
13:56:51 [Caroline_]
phila: this discussion is very important
13:57:11 [Caroline_]
... we are having a detail discussion
13:57:23 [annette_g]
+1 to phila, I'm really excited to see things shaping up1
13:57:24 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: the group is very mature and it is easier to talk about these things
13:57:28 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:34 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:57:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/22-dwbp-minutes.html phila
13:57:59 [Caroline_]
... deirdrelee, for us editors is really hard to give you a dealine before talking with annette_g and doing more things
13:58:10 [Caroline_]
deirdrelee: we can have another talk next week
13:58:34 [Caroline_]
... I will be more available this week as well to help with the native English
13:58:49 [Caroline_]
BernadetteLoscio: we will try to finish everything before Wednsday
13:58:49 [annette_g]
many thanks to the editors for all their hard work!!!
13:59:34 [BernadetteLoscio]
:):):)
13:59:46 [laufer]
bye all...
13:59:48 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:59:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/22-dwbp-minutes.html phila
13:59:49 [annette_g]
bye!
14:00:11 [annette_g]
the meeting got ended
14:00:53 [phila]
Yes, sorry, I thought we were done and I have another WebEx meeting now, annette_g
14:03:03 [deirdrelee]
deirdrelee has left #dwbp
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annette_g has joined #dwbp
15:32:08 [annette_g]
annette_g has joined #dwbp
16:00:42 [Zakim]
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