IRC log of aria on 2016-04-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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RRSAgent, make logs world
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Zakim, this will be
16:34:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:34:45 [Rich]
chair: Rich
16:34:46 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:34:46 [trackbot]
Date: 21 April 2016
16:34:52 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:34:54 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:34:57 [fesch]
present+ fesch
16:35:14 [janina]
present+ Janina
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16:37:23 [MichaelC]
present+ MichaelC, Matt, Cynthia
16:37:32 [Rich]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Apr/0131.html
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16:37:46 [fesch]
scribe: fesch
16:37:57 [jamesn]
present+ JamesNurthen
16:38:00 [jamesn]
agenda?
16:38:13 [fesch]
Topic: CFCs
16:39:00 [MichaelC]
present+ Rich, Joseph
16:39:16 [fesch]
rs: issue 742 moving role = text -> ARIA 2.0
16:39:24 [fesch]
rs: no objectsion
16:39:30 [bgaraventa1979]
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16:39:56 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:40:04 [fesch]
rs: Topic: Password Role
16:40:10 [MichaelC]
regrets: Tzviya, LĂ©onie, Stefan
16:40:17 [joanie]
q+
16:40:40 [fesch]
rs: talked with security folks, need consensus with security folks...
16:41:10 [fesch]
rs: either password gets in 1.1 or moved to 2.0 - we may have a gap with HTML
16:41:34 [fesch]
rs: will set up meeting on password role, Freedom Scientific will respond
16:41:43 [fesch]
rs: any comments?
16:41:44 [Rich]
q?
16:42:33 [fesch]
jd: I understand text needs to come out of ARIA 1.1.... holding off on removing to allow editors branching..
16:42:45 [fesch]
rs: this is the way you preserve stuff?
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trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent, make logs world
16:46:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
16:46:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:46:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:46:17 [trackbot]
Date: 21 April 2016
16:46:21 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make log public
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present+JaEunJemmaKu
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present+ JaEunJemmaKu
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scribe: fesch
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present+ Janina
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present+ fesch
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16:47:46 [fesch]
rs: we can leave password in a branch
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16:48:09 [joanie]
q?
16:48:23 [fesch]
TOPIC: Password CFC
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16:48:59 [fesch]
rs: question on password is whether in goes in 1.1 or not
16:49:09 [fesch]
jd: we are making a branch....
16:49:48 [fesch]
mc: we will discuss it in 2 weeks, editors call - will send around discussion of plan...
16:50:05 [fesch]
mc: are we having a joint meeting with security?
16:50:07 [fesch]
rs: yes
16:50:33 [fesch]
Action-1490
16:50:33 [trackbot]
Action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2016-02-03 -- OPEN
16:50:33 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
16:50:53 [fesch]
mk: only 2 changes
16:50:54 [mck]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action1490-combobox/aria/aria.html#combobox
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16:54:01 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:54:10 [fesch]
hello
16:54:11 [Rich]
q?
16:54:16 [jemma]
*;-)
16:54:42 [MichaelC]
mk: creating functioning examples - diff between what Rich and I are saying -
16:54:47 [MichaelC]
mk: will be in own repository
16:54:48 [fesch]
rs: what do folks think about launching dialog boxes from combo boxes?
16:54:52 [MichaelC]
mk: I think the spec text already covers what needs to be covered... rewrote required owns...
16:54:59 [MichaelC]
mk: included specific feedback
16:55:00 [fesch]
js: don't like it
16:55:28 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log world
16:55:40 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
16:55:45 [fesch]
mk: there are lots of examples of combos with popups
16:56:25 [fesch]
mk: easy to demonstrate examples...
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16:57:48 [fesch]
cs: I don't think it is a combobox.
16:58:01 [fesch]
cs: a combobox is a textbox and list...
16:58:13 [fesch]
cs: think it is antipattern...
16:58:27 [fesch]
cs: think it has poor usability
16:58:53 [bgaraventa1979]
+q
16:59:09 [fesch]
mk: part of the issue - combobox or not - is defining ARIA not on interactions
16:59:29 [fesch]
mk: thought purpose of ARIA role was to help user understand interaction pattern
16:59:41 [fesch]
cs: that is what ARIA is supposed to be doing
16:59:56 [fesch]
cs: calling a cat a dog doesn't help
17:00:04 [Rich]
q+
17:00:05 [fesch]
mk: dog vs dog...
17:00:33 [fesch]
cs: limitation of a role based system, something we can fix in 2.0
17:00:58 [fesch]
mk: I think this is where the example helps - can't see where another role will help...
17:01:12 [fesch]
mk: if you give more roles - gives user more confusion
17:01:31 [Rich]
q?
17:01:35 [fesch]
cs: I would call a combo with a dialog something else...
17:02:02 [fesch]
cs: combos have been around for 30 years...
17:02:15 [fesch]
mk: combo textbox + popup
17:02:31 [fesch]
mk: you want combo = textbox + popup list
17:02:44 [fesch]
cs: there is specific behavior with a list
17:03:21 [Rich]
ack bgaravaenta
17:03:24 [fesch]
bg: we are talking about two control types
17:03:31 [Rich]
ack bgaraventa
17:03:43 [fesch]
bg: once in dialog box, then not in a combo any more
17:04:06 [fesch]
bg: I don't see why it is in the spec
17:04:22 [fesch]
mk: could say the same thing about a list...
17:04:54 [fesch]
bg: problem with dialog is a child of a combobox doesn't make any sense could be recursive
17:05:19 [fesch]
bg: mapping for combobox...
17:05:49 [fesch]
bg: opening a combobox - does not support a composite widget type
17:06:24 [fesch]
mk: that is the way it is in the API..., don't understand this, all other composite widgets can be nested
17:06:53 [fesch]
bg: region cannot use a virtual cursor inside a combobox
17:07:01 [fesch]
mk: that is why we are changing it
17:08:08 [fesch]
bg: if you put it on the edit field ... but if you are still in the edit box and go to a grid cell, AT reports it... you can't tunnel into it, so it won't match any select element
17:08:52 [fesch]
rs: what is a combobox Cynthia?
17:09:08 [fesch]
cs: there are expected control pattern and tree structure...
17:09:23 [fesch]
rs: if we put this in, it breaks Microsoft's pattern
17:09:45 [fesch]
rs: maybe we have a subclass of combobox...
17:09:58 [fesch]
cs: subclass feels like a better model
17:10:33 [fesch]
rs: a subclass gives Microsoft the ability to build something that works for it that doesn't break their current comboboxes
17:10:54 [fesch]
rs: what do others think about that approach?
17:11:05 [fesch]
mk: users will have to use another role...
17:11:33 [jamesn]
**Calls 20 minutes**
17:11:41 [fesch]
mk: the reason they know how to use it... is they've used a combo box
17:12:01 [fesch]
mk: what you get in the end is identical...
17:12:16 [fesch]
rs: what do people thing about creating a subclass?
17:13:14 [fesch]
mk: all you need to do is look at the target of aria-controls... use based on what is controlled traditional or not
17:13:33 [fesch]
cs: change the role we map it to based on an attribute?\
17:14:22 [fesch]
cs: mapping the control type based on combobox role, must include .... tree structure... edits...
17:14:58 [fesch]
cs: I could figure out a way to map it... but users expect a combobox to be a particular thing, would like a usability test
17:15:17 [fesch]
bg: why does the dialog need to be a child of the combo?
17:15:29 [fesch]
rs: so you can walk back to the textbox
17:16:27 [fesch]
mk: in the case of dialog, it is less important that the dialog be a sibling of the textbox... because folks would be using a reading cursor..
17:16:37 [fesch]
bg: why is it required in the spec?
17:16:40 [clown]
"When a descendant of the pop-up element is active, authors MAY set aria-activedescendant on the textbox to a value that refers to the active element within the popup while focus remains on the textbox element. "
17:17:02 [fesch]
bg: you can't get to the textbox because the dialog is modal...
17:17:12 [fesch]
rs: need a subclass....
17:17:30 [fesch]
mk: that doesn't help the user....
17:17:52 [fesch]
mk: you can do a similar thing without the combobox roll...
17:18:30 [fesch]
mk: we can do this... but it surprising to the user opening something from a textbox
17:18:48 [fesch]
rs: can do it other ways...
17:19:22 [fesch]
mk: now has one more way of doing things, additional baggage with no additional values
17:19:30 [joanie]
q+ To ask why not make it an textbox (or subclass) with haspopup?
17:19:35 [fesch]
rs: can be really confusing to user
17:19:55 [Rich]
ack Rich
17:20:01 [fesch]
mk: a user knows how to do that thing...
17:20:05 [Rich]
ack joanie
17:20:05 [Zakim]
joanie, you wanted to ask why not make it an textbox (or subclass) with haspopup?
17:20:43 [fesch]
jd: why not make it an textbox (or subclass) with aria-haspopup?
17:21:15 [clown]
aria-haspop: "Indicates that the element has a popup context menu or sub-level menu."
17:21:30 [fesch]
bg: this goes back to the discussion - where it tells what will be opened - and would address this whole thing
17:22:11 [fesch]
mk: could do this for any textbox that opens things... what I have learned about comboboxes - people expect a down arrow to open ...
17:22:36 [joanie]
q+
17:22:53 [fesch]
mk: other stuff is opened with enter.... different ways... doesn't provide information to user how to open it
17:23:26 [Rich]
q+
17:23:34 [fesch]
mk: knowing that it will open with a down arrow to open and return with escape - then those learned behaviors ...
17:23:49 [clown]
q+ to mention the bug about aria-haspopup
17:24:15 [fesch]
jd: might also do other keys ... as they work on other platforms...
17:24:51 [Rich]
q?
17:24:55 [joanie]
ackme
17:24:56 [fesch]
jd: an entry with a popup, can communicate to user what the keys do....
17:24:57 [Rich]
ack joanie
17:25:04 [joanie]
s/ackme//
17:25:16 [Rich]
q?
17:25:29 [fesch]
bg: someone suggested popup-type a couple of years ago...
17:25:58 [fesch]
bg: problem is it doesn't tell you what type of object is being opened - dialog, tree, grid ....
17:26:22 [fesch]
bg: if we could indicate what type of popup is being opened...
17:26:32 [fesch]
mk: a lot of date pickers are dialogs...
17:26:46 [fesch]
bg: we are talking about what is being opened -
17:27:00 [clown]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25851
17:27:03 [fesch]
rs: OK an attribute for what is being opened.
17:27:12 [fesch]
mk: who does that help?
17:27:30 [fesch]
rs: knowing a dialog is being opened is helpful to the user...
17:27:44 [fesch]
mk: I would be shocked if someone gets confused
17:28:32 [fesch]
bg: select doesn't work that way and it violates some best practices... if it says what it opens, then we will at least know it will send you somewhere
17:28:39 [Rich]
ack Rich
17:28:47 [clown]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25851
17:29:18 [fesch]
js: aria-haspopup - Steve suggested that it tell you the type...
17:30:01 [fesch]
rs: aria-haspopup is global, would want to think about that...
17:30:19 [fesch]
mk: hidden elements could be in the DOM and not in the tree
17:30:44 [fesch]
bg: may not be directly referable...
17:31:01 [fesch]
rs: leaning toward giving information on what is being opened
17:31:33 [fesch]
rs: we could impact things all over the place...
17:31:46 [fesch]
mk: true false still there, backward compatable
17:31:55 [fesch]
rs: default is what?
17:32:23 [fesch]
mk: it is already technically true... could leave that...
17:33:02 [fesch]
rs: do folks want to let Matt write a popup type? We should limit it
17:34:01 [fesch]
js: true = menu attached
17:34:17 [fesch]
rs: default = list
17:34:39 [fesch]
cs: may be a while before I can do mapping - boolean in API
17:34:47 [clown]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25851
17:35:16 [fesch]
rs: might break a few things...
17:35:49 [fesch]
rs: took more than 20 minutes... worth while...
17:36:47 [fesch]
mk: has authors SHOULD have modal dialog... but is a designer
17:37:17 [clown]
q+ to point out that on AXAPI, aria-modal means "prune the tree".
17:37:23 [fesch]
mk: inert in aria-modal is to obfuscate...
17:37:54 [fesch]
bg: opens up a dialog as you are typing...sets the modal... on iOS you won't see the input anymore...
17:37:56 [Rich]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/editing.html#inert
17:39:11 [fesch]
mk: should change the aria-modal text to agree with inert
17:39:20 [clown]
ack me
17:39:20 [Zakim]
clown, you wanted to mention the bug about aria-haspopup and to point out that on AXAPI, aria-modal means "prune the tree".
17:40:32 [fesch]
bg: if we change modal, we will break it for touch interface
17:40:59 [fesch]
bg: I think it is dangerous... modal is loaded term...
17:41:33 [fesch]
mk: have to manage focus...
17:41:59 [fesch]
js: can you click outside of it?
17:42:24 [fesch]
js: click outside a modal dialog it beebs, not allowed to click outside of it...
17:42:50 [fesch]
rs: you want to click outside of it and have it go away, that is not modal
17:43:18 [fesch]
js: covered by aria-modal.... click outside of it ... you are still stuck with it
17:43:43 [fesch]
cs: clicking outside a dialog is called light dismiss in windows...
17:44:57 [clown]
s/it beebs/it beeps/
17:45:41 [fesch]
rs: nobody disagrees we don't want a modal dialog.. have we reached consensus on those three things?
17:50:12 [mck]
dialogs launched from a combo need not be modal but should manage focus so the user can click outside the popup to close it.
17:50:24 [clown]
+1
17:51:41 [mck]
dialogs launched from a combo should manage focus but need not be modal so the user can click outside the popup to close it.
17:52:07 [fesch]
RESOLUTION: dialogs launched from a combo should manage focus but need not be modal so the user can click outside the popup to close it.
17:54:41 [fesch]
RESOLUTION: we will expand the values for aria-popup to address use cases of combobox and others
17:54:51 [fesch]
bg: this is backward compatable
17:55:50 [Rich]
Action: mking3 Expand aria-haspopup to support a token list of values
17:55:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2054 - Expand aria-haspopup to support a token list of values [on Matthew King - due 2016-04-28].
17:56:15 [fesch]
mk: thanks Rich for taking the time
17:56:36 [fesch]
ACTION-2036
17:56:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-2036 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify aria-kbdshortcut based on group feedback -- due 2016-04-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:56:36 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2036
17:57:06 [fesch]
rs: can we put this in the spec and get guidance from APG on shortcuts
17:58:03 [Rich]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2036/aria/aria.html#aria-keyshortcuts
17:58:14 [clown]
action: Joseph Scheuhammer to drive mappings of the new enumerated type values for aria-haspopup
17:58:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2055 - Scheuhammer to drive mappings of the new enumerated type values for aria-haspopup [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2016-04-28].
17:58:21 [clown]
action-2055
17:58:21 [trackbot]
action-2055 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Scheuhammer to drive mappings of the new enumerated type values for aria-haspopup -- due 2016-04-28 -- OPEN
17:58:21 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2055
17:58:49 [Rich]
RESOLUTION: Pull aria-keyshortcuts proposal into ARIA 1.1 where the final text guidance is subject to revew of new APG text on aria-keyshortcuts
17:59:37 [fesch]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-aria-minutes.html fesch
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