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16:34:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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16:34:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:34:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:34:45 <Rich> chair: Rich
16:34:46 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:34:46 <trackbot> Date: 21 April 2016
16:34:52 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
16:34:54 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:34:57 <fesch> present+ fesch
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16:37:23 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC, Matt, Cynthia
16:37:32 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Apr/0131.html
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16:37:46 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:37:57 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
16:38:00 <jamesn> agenda?
16:38:13 <fesch> Topic: CFCs
16:39:00 <MichaelC> present+ Rich, Joseph
16:39:16 <fesch> rs: issue 742 moving role = text -> ARIA 2.0
16:39:24 <fesch> rs: no objectsion
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16:39:56 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:40:04 <fesch> rs: Topic: Password Role
16:40:10 <MichaelC> regrets: Tzviya, Léonie, Stefan
16:40:17 <joanie> q+
16:40:40 <fesch> rs: talked with security folks, need consensus with security folks...
16:41:10 <fesch> rs: either password gets in 1.1 or moved to 2.0   - we may have a gap with HTML
16:41:34 <fesch> rs: will set up meeting on password role,   Freedom Scientific will respond
16:41:43 <fesch> rs: any comments?
16:41:44 <Rich> q?
16:42:33 <fesch> jd: I understand text needs to come out of ARIA 1.1.... holding off on removing to allow editors branching..
16:42:45 <fesch> rs: this is the way you preserve stuff?
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16:46:12 <Rich> trackbot, start meeting
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16:46:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:46:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:46:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:46:17 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:46:17 <trackbot> Date: 21 April 2016
16:46:21 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
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16:47:46 <fesch> rs: we can leave password  in a branch
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16:48:09 <joanie> q?
16:48:23 <fesch> TOPIC: Password CFC
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16:48:59 <fesch> rs: question on password is whether in goes in 1.1 or not
16:49:09 <fesch> jd: we are making a branch....
16:49:48 <fesch> mc: we will discuss it in 2 weeks, editors call - will send around discussion of plan...
16:50:05 <fesch> mc: are we having a joint meeting with security?
16:50:07 <fesch> rs: yes
16:50:33 <fesch> Action-1490
16:50:33 <trackbot> Action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2016-02-03 -- OPEN
16:50:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490
16:50:53 <fesch> mk: only 2 changes
16:50:54 <mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action1490-combobox/aria/aria.html#combobox
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16:54:01 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:54:10 <fesch> hello
16:54:11 <Rich> q?
16:54:16 <jemma> *;-)
16:54:42 <MichaelC> mk: creating functioning examples - diff between what Rich and I are saying -
16:54:47 <MichaelC> mk: will be in own repository
16:54:48 <fesch> rs: what do folks think about launching dialog boxes from combo boxes?
16:54:52 <MichaelC> mk: I think the spec text already covers what needs to be covered... rewrote required owns...
16:54:59 <MichaelC> mk: included specific feedback
16:55:00 <fesch> js: don't like it
16:55:28 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
16:55:40 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
16:55:45 <fesch> mk: there are lots of examples of combos with popups
16:56:25 <fesch> mk: easy to demonstrate examples...
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16:57:48 <fesch> cs: I don't think it is a combobox.
16:58:01 <fesch> cs: a combobox is a textbox and list...
16:58:13 <fesch> cs: think it is antipattern...
16:58:27 <fesch> cs: think it has poor usability
16:58:53 <bgaraventa1979> +q
16:59:09 <fesch> mk: part of the issue - combobox or not - is defining ARIA not on interactions
16:59:29 <fesch> mk: thought purpose of ARIA role was to help user understand interaction pattern
16:59:41 <fesch> cs: that is what ARIA is supposed to be doing
16:59:56 <fesch> cs: calling a cat a dog doesn't help
17:00:04 <Rich> q+
17:00:05 <fesch> mk: dog vs dog...
17:00:33 <fesch> cs: limitation of a role based system, something we can fix in 2.0
17:00:58 <fesch> mk: I think this is where the example helps - can't see where another role will help...
17:01:12 <fesch> mk: if you give more roles - gives user more confusion
17:01:31 <Rich> q?
17:01:35 <fesch> cs: I would call a combo with a dialog something else...
17:02:02 <fesch> cs: combos have been around for 30 years...
17:02:15 <fesch> mk: combo textbox + popup
17:02:31 <fesch> mk: you want combo = textbox + popup list
17:02:44 <fesch> cs: there is specific behavior with a list
17:03:21 <Rich> ack bgaravaenta
17:03:24 <fesch> bg: we are talking about two control types
17:03:31 <Rich> ack bgaraventa
17:03:43 <fesch> bg: once in dialog box, then not in a combo any more
17:04:06 <fesch> bg: I don't see why it is in the spec
17:04:22 <fesch> mk: could say the same thing about a list...
17:04:54 <fesch> bg: problem with dialog is a child of a combobox doesn't make any sense could be recursive
17:05:19 <fesch> bg: mapping for combobox...
17:05:49 <fesch> bg: opening a combobox - does not support a composite widget type
17:06:24 <fesch> mk: that is the way it is in the API..., don't understand this, all other composite widgets can be nested
17:06:53 <fesch> bg: region cannot use a virtual cursor inside a combobox
17:07:01 <fesch> mk: that is why we are changing it
17:08:08 <fesch> bg: if you put it on the edit field ... but if you are still in the edit box and go to a grid cell, AT reports it... you can't tunnel into it, so it won't match any select element
17:08:52 <fesch> rs: what is a combobox Cynthia?
17:09:08 <fesch> cs: there are expected control pattern and tree structure...
17:09:23 <fesch> rs: if we put this in, it breaks Microsoft's pattern
17:09:45 <fesch> rs: maybe we have a subclass of combobox...
17:09:58 <fesch> cs: subclass feels like a better model
17:10:33 <fesch> rs: a subclass gives Microsoft the ability to build something that works for it that doesn't break their current comboboxes
17:10:54 <fesch> rs: what do others think about that approach?
17:11:05 <fesch> mk: users will have to use another role...
17:11:33 <jamesn> **Calls 20 minutes**
17:11:41 <fesch> mk: the reason they know how to use it... is they've used a combo box
17:12:01 <fesch> mk: what you get in the end is identical...
17:12:16 <fesch> rs: what do people thing about creating a subclass?
17:13:14 <fesch> mk: all you need to do is look at the target of aria-controls... use based on what is controlled traditional or not
17:13:33 <fesch> cs: change the role we map it to based on an attribute?\
17:14:22 <fesch> cs: mapping the control type based on combobox role, must include .... tree structure... edits...
17:14:58 <fesch> cs: I could figure out a way to map it... but users expect a combobox to be a particular thing, would like a usability test
17:15:17 <fesch> bg: why does the dialog need to be a child of the combo?
17:15:29 <fesch> rs: so you can walk back to the textbox
17:16:27 <fesch> mk: in the case of dialog, it is less important that the dialog be a sibling of the textbox... because folks would be using a reading cursor..
17:16:37 <fesch> bg: why is it required in the spec?
17:16:40 <clown> "When a descendant of the pop-up element is active, authors MAY set aria-activedescendant on the textbox to a value that refers to the active element within the popup while focus remains on the textbox element. "
17:17:02 <fesch> bg: you can't get to the textbox because the dialog is modal...
17:17:12 <fesch> rs: need a subclass....
17:17:30 <fesch> mk: that doesn't help the user....
17:17:52 <fesch> mk: you can do a similar thing without the combobox roll...
17:18:30 <fesch> mk: we can do this... but it surprising to the user opening something from a textbox
17:18:48 <fesch> rs: can do it other ways...
17:19:22 <fesch> mk: now has one more way of doing things, additional baggage with no additional values
17:19:30 <joanie> q+ To ask why not make it an textbox (or subclass) with haspopup?
17:19:35 <fesch> rs: can be really confusing to user
17:19:55 <Rich> ack Rich
17:20:01 <fesch> mk: a user knows how to do that thing...
17:20:05 <Rich> ack joanie
17:20:05 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask why not make it an textbox (or subclass) with haspopup?
17:20:43 <fesch> jd: why not make it an textbox (or subclass) with aria-haspopup?
17:21:15 <clown> aria-haspop:  "Indicates that the element has a popup context menu or sub-level menu."
17:21:30 <fesch> bg: this goes back to the discussion - where it tells what will be opened - and would address this whole thing
17:22:11 <fesch> mk: could do this for any textbox that opens things... what I have learned about comboboxes - people expect a down arrow to open ...
17:22:36 <joanie> q+
17:22:53 <fesch> mk: other stuff is opened with enter.... different ways... doesn't provide information to user how to open it
17:23:26 <Rich> q+
17:23:34 <fesch> mk: knowing that it will open with a down arrow to open and return with escape - then those learned behaviors ...
17:23:49 <clown> q+ to mention the bug about aria-haspopup
17:24:15 <fesch> jd: might also do other keys ... as they work on other platforms...
17:24:51 <Rich> q?
17:24:55 <joanie> ackme
17:24:56 <fesch> jd: an entry with a popup, can communicate to user what the keys do....
17:24:57 <Rich> ack joanie
17:25:04 <joanie> s/ackme//
17:25:16 <Rich> q?
17:25:29 <fesch> bg: someone suggested popup-type a couple of years ago...
17:25:58 <fesch> bg: problem is it doesn't tell you what type of object is being opened - dialog, tree, grid ....
17:26:22 <fesch> bg: if we could indicate what type of popup is being opened...
17:26:32 <fesch> mk: a lot of date pickers are dialogs...
17:26:46 <fesch> bg: we are talking about what is being opened -
17:27:00 <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25851
17:27:03 <fesch> rs: OK an attribute for what is being opened.
17:27:12 <fesch> mk: who does that help?
17:27:30 <fesch> rs: knowing a dialog is being opened is helpful to the user...
17:27:44 <fesch> mk: I would be shocked if someone gets confused
17:28:32 <fesch> bg:  select doesn't work that way and it violates some best practices... if it says what it opens, then we will at least know it will send you somewhere
17:28:39 <Rich> ack Rich
17:28:47 <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25851
17:29:18 <fesch> js: aria-haspopup - Steve suggested that it tell you the type...
17:30:01 <fesch> rs: aria-haspopup is global, would want to think about that...
17:30:19 <fesch> mk: hidden elements could be in the DOM and not in the tree
17:30:44 <fesch> bg: may not be directly referable...
17:31:01 <fesch> rs: leaning toward giving information on what is being opened
17:31:33 <fesch> rs: we could impact things all over the place...
17:31:46 <fesch> mk: true false still there, backward compatable
17:31:55 <fesch> rs: default is what?
17:32:23 <fesch> mk: it is already technically true... could leave that...
17:33:02 <fesch> rs: do folks want to let Matt write a popup type?  We should limit it
17:34:01 <fesch> js: true = menu attached
17:34:17 <fesch> rs: default  = list
17:34:39 <fesch> cs: may be a while before I can do mapping - boolean in API
17:34:47 <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25851
17:35:16 <fesch> rs: might break a few things...
17:35:49 <fesch> rs: took more than 20 minutes... worth while...
17:36:47 <fesch> mk: has authors SHOULD have modal dialog... but is a designer
17:37:17 <clown> q+ to point out that on AXAPI, aria-modal means "prune the tree".
17:37:23 <fesch> mk:  inert in aria-modal is to obfuscate...
17:37:54 <fesch> bg: opens up a dialog as you are typing...sets the modal... on iOS you won't see the input anymore...
17:37:56 <Rich>  https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/editing.html#inert
17:39:11 <fesch> mk: should change the aria-modal text to agree with inert
17:39:20 <clown> ack me
17:39:20 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to mention the bug about aria-haspopup and to point out that on AXAPI, aria-modal means "prune the tree".
17:40:32 <fesch> bg: if we change modal, we will break it for touch interface
17:40:59 <fesch> bg: I think it is dangerous... modal is loaded term...
17:41:33 <fesch> mk: have to manage focus...
17:41:59 <fesch> js: can you click outside of it?
17:42:24 <fesch> js: click outside a modal dialog it beebs, not allowed to click outside of it...
17:42:50 <fesch> rs: you want to click outside of it and have it go away, that is not modal
17:43:18 <fesch> js: covered by aria-modal.... click outside of it ... you are still stuck with it
17:43:43 <fesch> cs: clicking outside a dialog is called light dismiss in windows...
17:44:57 <clown> s/it beebs/it beeps/
17:45:41 <fesch> rs: nobody disagrees we don't want a modal dialog.. have we reached consensus on those three things?
17:50:12 <mck> dialogs launched from a combo need not be modal but should manage focus so the user can click outside the popup to close it.
17:50:24 <clown> +1
17:51:41 <mck> dialogs launched from a combo should manage focus but need not be modal so the user can click outside the popup to close it.
17:52:07 <fesch> RESOLUTION: dialogs launched from a combo should manage focus but need not be modal so the user can click outside the popup to close it.
17:54:41 <fesch> RESOLUTION: we will expand the values for aria-popup to address use cases of combobox and others
17:54:51 <fesch> bg: this is backward compatable
17:55:50 <Rich> Action: mking3 Expand aria-haspopup to support a token list of values
17:55:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2054 - Expand aria-haspopup to support a token list of values [on Matthew King - due 2016-04-28].
17:56:15 <fesch> mk: thanks Rich for taking the time
17:56:36 <fesch> ACTION-2036
17:56:36 <trackbot> ACTION-2036 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify aria-kbdshortcut based on group feedback -- due 2016-04-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:56:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2036
17:57:06 <fesch> rs: can we put this in the spec and get guidance from APG on shortcuts
17:58:03 <Rich> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2036/aria/aria.html#aria-keyshortcuts
17:58:14 <clown> action: Joseph Scheuhammer to drive mappings of the new enumerated type values for aria-haspopup
17:58:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2055 - Scheuhammer to drive mappings of the new enumerated type values for aria-haspopup [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2016-04-28].
17:58:21 <clown> action-2055
17:58:21 <trackbot> action-2055 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Scheuhammer to drive mappings of the new enumerated type values for aria-haspopup -- due 2016-04-28 -- OPEN
17:58:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2055
17:58:49 <Rich> RESOLUTION: Pull aria-keyshortcuts proposal into ARIA 1.1 where the final text guidance is subject to revew of new APG text on aria-keyshortcuts
17:59:37 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/21-aria-minutes.html fesch
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