14:59:13 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:59:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-mobile-a11y-irc 14:59:15 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:59:17 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:59:17 ok, trackbot 14:59:18 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:59:18 Date: 07 April 2016 14:59:30 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 15:01:14 Agenda+ Finalize touch and pointer guideline 15:01:16 Agenda+ Next Steps 15:01:27 Agenda? 15:01:37 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 15:02:43 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:02:44 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 15:02:49 present+jon_avila 15:03:22 David_ has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:53 present+ Kathy 15:04:23 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:04:33 present+ marcjohlic 15:05:26 zakim, clear agenda 15:05:26 agenda cleared 15:05:43 Agenda+ Finalize touch and pointer guideline 15:05:45 Agenda+ Next Steps 15:06:10 Kathy: goal today is to finalize touch and pointer. Goal is to have that all ready to go 15:06:41 Kathy: April 26 date to talk about it with WCAG working group, so those on that group please make sure to be there for that call 15:07:16 Kathy: on wiki – link to all of the different conversations that we had on the mailing list as well as linking to any of the other documentation we have 15:07:20 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/HISTORY:_Touch_and_Pointer 15:07:54 Kathy: ultimate goal is to have that pulled together by the 26 so when people are looking at this they can see conversations – back and forth. There were lots of good conversations and back and forth in email 15:11:36 David: not sure whether will have it mature enough for the 26. There's enough instability around what people think that there seems to be a lot pulled in different directions. I'm just not sure where it's going to land. My experience with success criteria and WC3 things like this when there's a lot of things pulling in different directions usually doesn't solve itself right away. There's... 15:11:38 ...quite a bit of direction – Chris was saying he was concerned about the whole touchdown versus touchup. My proposal is still the same. In other words the way it's written right now is a very open – there's a lot of ways to meet the success criteria 15:12:27 https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer 15:12:55 David: telephone guy on the phone I can go back a couple numbers and it's no problem. So I'm not sure if we understand what were trying to do with it and if we do that maybe I'm not saying something right. Patrick has some concerns, and he was sort of thinking of it as more of UAAG 15:13:16 David: But when I can I have control over that until at least WCAG 3 15:13:44 Jon: keep it touchup touchdown, need to figure out what authors need to do given the current state of accessibility. Need to give them instruction to do that 15:13:58 Kathy: is there changes that you'd like to see John on 2.5.3 based on what we have there today 15:13:58 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3 15:14:20 Can you paste a link to the latest version of SC 2.5.3? 15:14:21 Jon: some notes about touchup – just broaden that to say for some users touchup, touchdown 15:14:34 David: adding a couple sentences to understanding? 15:15:52 Kathy: I agree with you David that we have a lot of varying opinions on this and we may not have this in a final state by the time we go to the working group but I think it's worthwhile getting the reaction of the working group and saying this is something that we've done and we can list out the back and forth that we've got in history as well, and kind of bring it up and see where – and... 15:15:53 ...maybe get the advice of others on the working group, see what people think. Going back and forth in task force right now and end up revisiting that in working group. Better get reaction now. Not necessarily looking for things to be final final. It's okay if there are things we still have some questions on 15:16:32 Kathy: anybody else have comments on 2.5.3. Marc, Detlev 15:16:52 Kathy: email thread 2.5.3 from this week or last week 15:17:35 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2016Apr/0008.html 15:23:31 alan_smith has joined #mobile-a11y 15:24:36 David: hand shaking issue with touchup touchdown 15:24:52 David: touch than want to get off of it, that's why most functions are on touchdown 15:25:17 Jon: I'm okay with it but it doesn't address Chris's concern – give user different options 15:26:14 David: as success criterion more difficult because then they can either operate on touchup or touchdown, that's a higher requirement for authors. touchup important thing – BBC required only touchup 15:26:50 Detlev: I can't really see the use case – can someone sum up Chris's argument 15:27:28 David: I was reading his email closely – think about a geriatric person – might not get the target when they go down, or get it and then move off of it – they're going to lose their focus if it's on touchup. That was his point – Gregg said that also. 15:28:29 David: my feeling in response to that is the person might try to hit a button and they won't get it right because their hand shook, but they might need to move off it – I think it's the same person. And if it is, the issue is what gives us more support. If you have a handshake and you go through midair there's a lot more chance that you're going to get it wrong before you hit it than after... 15:28:30 ...you hit it 15:29:57 Detlev: we might just drop this, touchup and touchdown – might be the case where we can't require. BBC thought it had a case and included – let's go back to Henny and see if there's research backing this up, how they came up with this. Or one could try to separate reversible things from nonreversible things. If this is just a link for example then obviously could just use back to get out of... 15:29:58 ...it. If it's a form to submit something the confirmation thing would come in but that could be independent of the type of touch activation, so I'm not really sure whether we have a case here, even if it's the case where we have both types of users, one benefit from touchdown, the other from touchup. 15:30:33 David: I don't think that's generally the case. I think the touchup is 10 times or maybe 20 times more beneficial than a touchdown. And there are very few situations where a touchdown would be the best thing. Because that's when the person is selecting something. We want to have a difference between selecting an activation. So you should be able to put your hand on something and say I don't... 15:30:35 ...want to do that – change your mind and move your finger off of it 15:30:54 Jon: why don't we come up with wording similar to other criteria 15:31:41 Detlev: predictable touch? 15:32:28 Jon: say a checkbox, press it and it didn't work, so you press it again, but it toggles and unchecks. If we could put something in there to help users accurately work with touch events so it didn't require a certain length of time for a press and that would help prevent them from activating and then deactivating 15:33:51 Detlev: some touch gestures where you hold finger down longer – is there a clear recommendation for dwell time? We have a recommendation which was put into question by Chris which is trigger things on touchup rather than touchdown. If that holds then is there anything similar to dwell time which can be put in a few words? Say don't use the duration of touch to do anything – if some systems... 15:33:53 ...have something happening when you hold your finger for longer that's putting us into a difficult position – might want to use that dwell time and potentially do something – do we have a clear recommendation for that case? 15:34:06 Detlev: is there something we could put is a simple do or don't for dwelltime 15:34:51 Jon: session – people pushing off of the screen, dwell time huge issue. Accidentally activate need to be able to recover. Just like keyboard access needs to be doable without having the user hold down the key for a certain amount of time 15:35:24 Detlev: alternative for actions that are triggered through given dwell time – but that would be a different success criterion if it becomes one 15:36:01 David: making changes in wiki 15:36:28 David: the intent of the success criterion 15:37:00 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3 15:37:51 David: this is really the crux of it – somebody gets their hand on it, they change their mind and they want to move their hand away 15:38:25 Jon: so I think the idea that we want to support touchup or provide another mechanism is good – that allows for touchdown as long as you have one of those other actions 15:39:10 Jon: trying to look up other research on this – Jennifer's research is not published it 15:39:25 David: maybe we can write down a couple of questions to ask them 15:39:38 Kathy: or just send them this and ask their opinion – if they would recommend anything different 15:40:59 Detlev: you wouldn't press your finger for a length of time and then lift up and expect something to happen – does that really apply 15:41:29 Kathy: take out long press in example? add another example about long press or 3-D touch or something like that? 15:42:02 Detlev: one idea is do not require long press – give users an alternative, but that something different it would confuse to have that as example 15:42:24 Alan: can we say with the exception of long press and 3-D 15:42:51 Detlev: lump long touch and 3-D 15:43:15 Kathy: failure in there about actions only being available through long touch and 3-D touch 15:43:43 Detlev: do we have a failure sketched for long press already – something like long presses should not be the only way to do things 15:43:53 Kathy: we have a failure now 15:44:28 David: think that through in context of the success criterion – if there's a way they can turn off long press so that it will happen on touchup – I think with a little bit of work in a couple examples here on this we could be ready for presenting this to a larger group if everybody on our committee is on board with it 15:45:00 Kathy: I think we might want to add a little bit more to the explanation or examples about 3D and long touch. Even if we have it as a failure, having it in the explanation might help more 15:45:22 Detlev: also would be good to find examples of that failure. I'm not aware of anything where something you can trigger with long presses is not available in a different way anywhere 15:46:00 Detlev: if we don't have a single example than just a hypothetical failure – still valid 15:46:54 Kathy: tough – even if we come up with an example things change quickly. Telephone dialer, Backspace 15:47:17 Detlev: aim at web authors trying to calculate long presses to do certain things – difficult to find examples of that 15:48:29 Kathy: in touchup intent, talk about long press gestures can be used but they need to provide a way that either provides confirmation is reversible or makes another mechanism available 15:51:22 long press on app, changes to the mode where you can delete 15:51:28 David: system level 15:51:52 Kathy: one of the big complaints people have in general is it's not simple enough – how do you feel now about the language that's in there 15:52:08 Detlev: easier – I immediately know what touchup means. I think it's better than before 15:52:56 Jon: iphone home screen if you put finger down and hold you can't activate it – requires some kind of timing. When you hold it goes dark and then light again. If you lift up your finger without holding it down long enough to trigger the long press the icon doesn't activated all. 15:53:13 Jon: similar to not requiring specific timing for keystrokes, need something like that for touch 15:57:01 David: made changes, also put in example of phone dialer 15:59:43 Kathy: two instances of another need wordsmithing. 16:00:09 Detlev: change needed – type of interaction that's predictable 16:01:20 Kathy: David will finish wordsmithing and email out to larger group. If anyone else sees changes, please suggest in email. Made good progress this week – continue to work on it on list. 16:02:22 zakim, list participants 16:02:22 As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, jon_avila, Alan, Chris, David, Detlev, Jeanne, Kim, Marc, marcjohlic 16:02:56 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:03:33 Present - Jeanne, Chris 16:03:49 rrsagent, make minutes 16:03:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:04:00 zakim, list participants 16:04:00 As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, jon_avila, Alan, Chris, David, Detlev, Jeanne, Kim, Marc, marcjohlic 16:04:24 Present- Jeanne 16:04:33 zakim, list participants 16:04:33 As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, jon_avila, Alan, Chris, David, Detlev, Jeanne, Kim, Marc, marcjohlic 16:06:58 regrets+ Jeanne, Chris 16:07:07 zakim, list participants 16:07:07 As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, jon_avila, Alan, Chris, David, Detlev, Jeanne, Kim, Marc, marcjohlic 16:11:38 rrsagent, bye 16:11:38 I see no action items