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16:56:00 <ayla_stein> zakim, this will be #dpub-arch
16:56:00 <Zakim> ok, ayla_stein
16:56:12 <ayla_stein> Hi Tim!
16:56:43 <TimC> Hi
16:56:50 <TimC> Are you up on WebEx yet?
16:57:14 <ayla_stein> not yet
16:57:18 <ayla_stein> still setting up the irc
16:57:24 <ayla_stein> minutes, etc
16:57:24 <TimC> okay
16:57:54 <ayla_stein> is the URL in webex correct?
16:58:14 <TimC> this is what I used: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=me1b7841c4e79a3f1a7ff2728300f22e3
16:58:22 <ayla_stein> ScribeNick: TimC
16:58:35 <TimC> you will need the meeting number: 646 236 425
16:59:17 <ayla_stein> Meeting: DPub Archival Task Force
16:59:42 <ayla_stein> Chair: ayla_stein
17:00:42 <nullhandle> nullhandle has joined #dpub-arch
17:01:36 <TimC> Who is nullhandle?
17:02:27 <TimC> Present+ Tim_Cole
17:04:30 <ayla_stein> Present+ ayla_stein
17:04:38 <ntay> Present+
17:05:02 <ntay> Present+ nicholas_taylor
17:05:02 <TimC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Apr/
17:05:14 <TimC> MInutes: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Apr/
17:05:47 <ayla_stein> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Apr/
17:06:18 <TimC> minutes: https://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-dpub-arch-minutes.html
17:07:22 <ayla_stein> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Apr/0020.html
17:07:51 <ayla_stein> Topic: Approve Minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/03/24-dpub-arch-minutes.html
17:08:06 <TimC> ayla_stein: objections?
17:08:18 <TimC> ... hearing no objections, approved.
17:08:24 <ayla_stein> Topic: Identify Archival use cases relevant PWP and assign write-up of > each to TF member(s)
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17:09:08 <TimC> ayla_stein: a use case for LocKSS
17:09:50 <TimC> q+
17:10:35 <TimC> ntay: format migration may not be in scope for use case
17:10:51 <TimC> ayla_stein: could you expand on why not in scope
17:10:59 <TimC> ack timc
17:11:07 <tzviya> present+
17:11:45 <TimC> timC: It seems to me that PWP may make migration on access
17:12:09 <TimC> ... as I understood LOCKSS format migration is driven by use
17:12:35 <TimC> ... and when people use a PWP that is unpacked on server, do they necessarily get archivable package
17:13:14 <TimC> ntay: format on migration may not be current
17:13:31 <TimC> ... LOCKSS access system has not needed this yet.
17:13:44 <TimC> ... risk model of LOCKSS is primarily concerned with the bits.
17:14:12 <TimC> ... don't see PDF, GIF, ASCII as being of concern for client-side rendering obsolence.
17:14:30 <TimC> ... if GIF could no longer be rendered by mainstream Web browser
17:15:22 <TimC> ... then LOCKSS might put mechanism in place that when client requests an image but doesn't accept gif,LOCKSS could migrate to png
17:15:38 <TimC> ... But LOCKSS doesn't see this as a use case.
17:16:17 <TimC> ... my understanding is that PWP is not a file in the same sense
17:16:32 <TimC> ... it's a more a framework and manifest
17:18:35 <TimC> ntay: Could still put together a CLOCKSS / LOCKSS
17:18:48 <TimC> TimC: Difference between CLOCKSS and LOCKSS
17:19:05 <TimC> ntay: same underlying technology
17:19:54 <TimC> TimC: Ntay can you walk  us through the acquisition process
17:20:17 <TimC> ntay: 2 mechanisms by which we retrieve content
17:20:33 <TimC> ... 1 Web harvest, collect content as it would be presented to User
17:21:18 <TimC> ... plug-in provide extra intelligence to crawler so it can parse various units that contain multiple publication (e.g., issue)
17:21:36 <TimC> ... helps it figure out what the units it needs to make archival package(s)
17:22:04 <TimC> ... decision about what to package per publisher largely being figured out by LOCKSS
17:22:37 <TimC> TimC: so the manifest of PWP might simplify this.
17:22:58 <TimC> ntay: yes
17:23:26 <TimC> TimC: assumes that what is need for archiving is same as what is needed for portability
17:23:36 <TimC> ntay: 2nd method is more back end process
17:24:05 <TimC> ... publishers are making content available on the back end for archiving services
17:24:37 <TimC> ... more typically the source files, e.g., includes pdf but also XML, etc., but may not have all of the presentation (CSS) files
17:24:45 <TimC> ... things are neatly organized in a tree.
17:25:35 <TimC> TimC: How would you phrase some of these as user stories...
17:25:57 <TimC> tzviya: the back end approach is not necessairly relevant for PWP
17:26:43 <TimC> ntay: in CLOCKSS model, all content archived is dark until there is a trigger event (publisher goes out of business, natural disaster knocks out servers, etc.)
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17:27:08 <TimC> ... if we harvested, the user will see what they are used to seeing.
17:27:53 <TimC> ... backend acquisition makes it quality of access experience
17:29:22 <TimC> ntay: to the extent that we can make use cases generic, not necessairly tied to archiving service
17:31:05 <TimC> ntay: there may be specific examples from David's Blog post that talk about problems in the absence of a manifest
17:31:21 <TimC> ... so this may help us
17:32:26 <TimC> TimC: use case archival service wants to harvest (spider) a PWD, and expects to find in the manifest what it needs to make sure it gets all the right pieces.
17:32:41 <TimC> ntay: yes
17:32:54 <ayla_stein> yes!
17:33:19 <TimC> ntay: another use case is versioning, if one part of a PWP gets updated how is that update handle by archiving service
17:33:36 <TimC> tzviya: also a revisioning use case
17:33:54 <TimC> ... e.g., an update for a mis-spelled word in chapter 3
17:34:25 <TimC> ... vs. a new version of chapter 2.
17:34:55 <TimC> ayla_stein: keeping track of errata and retractions
17:35:17 <TimC> tzviya: we can start these as issues it GitHub
17:35:32 <TimC> ... re errata, these might be done as annotation
17:35:59 <TimC> ... we do have to consider what to do with errata, revisions, versions, etc.
17:36:42 <TimC> ayla_stein: removal retractions (publisher just removes the item)
17:36:55 <TimC> ... what does the archive service do?
17:38:09 <TimC> ntay: would be surprised if retraction resulted in deletion from an archive
17:38:57 <TimC> tzviya: we give retractions their own DOI, separate from the original article's DOI
17:40:09 <TimC> ... shows how people DOIs for different purposes
17:41:20 <TimC> ayla_stein: Medusa digital repository at Illinois does include digital monographs
17:41:43 <TimC> ... so what does that archive need to facilitate archiving
17:42:11 <TimC> ... archivist needs more a sense what makes a document valid -- i.e., health check
17:42:32 <TimC> ... sounds like he needs some sort of archivist validation
17:43:25 <TimC> TimC: what does validation mean? how does validatiy change over tiime?
17:44:03 <TimC> tzviya: there is an e-pub check system for validating
17:44:37 <TimC> ayla_stein: it does sound like he wants some way to read the publication and know how to validate it
17:44:50 <TimC> ... might not have to be an external tool
17:45:20 <TimC> tzviya: ePub has a validator, but has not come up yet for PWP
17:45:35 <TimC> ntay: so what does ePub check do
17:45:53 <TimC> tzviya: checks HTML, structure, etc.
17:45:58 <tzviya> epubcheck https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck
17:46:23 <TimC> ntay: been focused on how PWP will help verify completeness
17:46:59 <TimC> ... not clear whether you could easily check appearance and/or browser compatibility
17:47:51 <TimC> ayla_stein: not clear that responsive design is of concern yet to the Library / Archive space
17:48:18 <TimC> ntay: Responsive Design is a best practice for Web Archiving
17:48:20 <ntay> https://library.stanford.edu/projects/web-archiving/archivability
17:49:22 <TimC> TimC: the basic uc a archiving service wants validate a PWP as being adequate for archiving.
17:50:40 <TimC> ... Ayla will write something up.
17:50:51 <tzviya> q?
17:51:39 <TimC> ayla_stein: archivist will be worried about the range of content that can be included in a PWP, since these technologies change over time
17:51:48 <TimC> q+
17:52:09 <TimC> ... my understanding that PWP
17:52:13 <TimC> ack Ti
17:52:32 <TimC> TimC: if PWP is wide open about what it includes
17:52:51 <TimC> ... does that mean that some PWPs may not be archivable?
17:53:01 <tzviya> q+
17:53:10 <ntay> q+
17:53:17 <TimC> ack tzv
17:53:41 <TimC> tzviya: is this the same issue as comes up when we talk about Archiving the Web?
17:54:06 <TimC> ayla_stein: Leonard's discussion about PDF/A experience may help also
17:54:36 <TimC> ntay: my understand of PDF/A, the ability to embed arbitrary content means you end up with binary blogs
17:54:50 <TimC> ... as archivist we deal with not having control all the time
17:55:25 <TimC> ... so while some formats easier to archive than other, it isn't that there's a non-archivable format
17:56:26 <TimC> TimC: use case for making assessment of risk (from archiving perspective)
18:02:11 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, make logs member
18:02:22 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, bookmark
18:02:22 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-dpub-arch-irc#T18-02-22
18:03:20 <ayla_stein> oh right
18:03:33 <ayla_stein> that command was listed next on the webpage
18:04:15 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, set logs member|visible-world
18:04:46 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, set logs member|visible-public
18:05:24 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, set logs public
18:05:37 <ayla_stein> thanks Tim!
18:06:00 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, bookmark
18:06:00 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-dpub-arch-irc#T18-06-00
18:06:06 <ayla_stein> oh ok
18:06:22 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:06:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-dpub-arch-minutes.html ayla_stein
18:06:46 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, set logs public
18:06:54 <ayla_stein> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-dpub-arch-minutes.html ayla_stein
18:07:29 <ayla_stein> * excellent. okay, so should I download them and then edit?
18:07:35 <ayla_stein> * yep
18:07:38 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub-arch
18:08:38 <ayla_stein> * okay great. but I should leave this irc chat open just in case, right?
18:10:11 <ayla_stein> * okay, will do. Thanks Tim!
18:10:25 <ayla_stein> bye!
19:32:57 <tzviya> zakim, bye
19:32:57 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Tim_Cole, ayla_stein, ntay, nicholas_taylor, tzviya
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