IRC log of svg-a11y on 2016-04-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:04:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
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logging to
18:04:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs ab
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Zakim, this will be
18:04:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:04:55 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
18:04:55 [trackbot]
Date: 06 April 2016
18:05:24 [AmeliaBR]
chair: fesch
18:05:30 [fesch]
present + LJWatson, Chaals, fesch, Brian, Rich
18:05:41 [AmeliaBR]
present + AmeliaBR
18:06:23 [Brian]
scribe: Brian
18:06:52 [fesch]
Topic: around the table
18:10:30 [Brian]
a: Rich Core roles with the graphics we need the mappings from apple for
18:10:44 [Brian]
a: Rich check with Microsoft & UIA, wading through text ocmputation
18:11:30 [Rich]
Rich: graphics module roles we need the mappings from apple for
18:11:56 [Rich]
Rich: check with Microsoft & UIA, and wading through text ocmputation
18:12:14 [Brian]
Topic: Open Actions
18:12:24 [fesch]
18:12:45 [fesch]
18:12:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-2002 -- Amelia Bellamy-Royds to Draft new language for svg-aam. -- due 2016-03-30 -- OPEN
18:12:45 [trackbot]
18:13:17 [Brian]
Amelia: No updates, couple more weeks for updates
18:14:07 [fesch]
18:14:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-2003 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other aria specs. -- due 2016-03-01 -- OPEN
18:14:07 [trackbot]
18:14:46 [Brian]
Rich: just started looking at this today
18:15:19 [Brian]
Rich: what would casue role=none to be hidden. EG: tabindex
18:15:44 [Brian]
fesch: how do we treat elements with child title and role=presentation
18:15:55 [Brian]
18:15:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-2004 -- Amelia Bellamy-Royds to Clean up rules for title & name description (github issue #137) -- due 2016-03-30 -- OPEN
18:15:55 [trackbot]
18:16:25 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: some of this has been closed, some hasn't
18:16:37 [Brian]
fesch: any depend on SVG or is this just us?
18:16:47 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: some separaet edits that need to be made to SVG2
18:16:47 [fesch]
18:16:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-2015 -- Amelia Bellamy-Royds to Modify the svg2 spec. to require authors when useing <title> or <desc> to not leave them empty or with only white space. an author must -- due 2016-03-23 -- OPEN
18:16:47 [trackbot]
18:17:33 [fesch]
18:17:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-2017 -- Fred Esch to Talk with michael cooper to determine where to place the svg accessibility authoring practices -- due 2016-03-16 -- OPEN
18:17:33 [trackbot]
18:18:05 [Brian]
fesch: chaals cleaned up repository, if we stick with that we can removed this
18:18:22 [fesch]
18:18:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-2018 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Make the scrapbook for authoring practices look like a w3c editors' draft. -- due 2016-03-23 -- OPEN
18:18:22 [trackbot]
18:19:14 [Brian]
chaals: I beleive it's got the basic pieces done, if we update it I will add pieces so it looks more like something
18:19:45 [fesch]
Topic : Open Actions
18:19:53 [fesch]
18:19:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-2008 -- Doug Schepers to define authoring practices related to links -- due 2016-04-06 -- OPEN
18:19:53 [trackbot]
18:20:29 [Brian]
fesch: Doug, can you put link authoring practices into chaals repo?
18:20:40 [chaals]
-> authoring practices repo
18:21:04 [fesch]
Topic: Role mapping for SVG element
18:21:20 [AmeliaBR]
18:21:27 [fesch]
HTML has different roles for the SVG element than SVG AAM
18:21:29 [fesch]
That spec does not map <svg> to any existing ARIA role
18:21:30 [fesch]
It does, however, map it to the relevant graphics-related roles in each API
18:21:32 [fesch]
(or group if no appropriate role exists)
18:21:33 [fesch]
18:21:35 [fesch]
group role
18:21:38 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I noticed since the html spec defined the svg element
18:21:46 [chaals]
18:21:55 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: they have mappings for the svg element, and they are differnet than our mappings
18:22:15 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: the html aam has these mappings. It's more complicated, they have better mappings than us
18:22:18 [chaals]
18:22:32 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: we need to investigate their mappings and consider if we want to adopt it
18:22:35 [chaals]
ack shepa
18:23:04 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: we currently mpa SVG to group, which is not good. HTML spec has different mappings that are currently used on differnt platforms
18:23:44 [Brian]
Rich: the problem is where we're going, this doesn't make sense. It's hte opposite of where we want to go
18:23:54 [Brian]
fesch: is that because they're mapping to image?
18:24:00 [Brian]
Rich: UIA does nothing with SVG
18:24:25 [Brian]
Rich: MSAA/UIA Express, not sure what to do with that
18:24:32 [Brian]
Rich: ATK, not sure what Joanie's doing with that
18:24:42 [Brian]
Rich: don't worry about it, I will coordinate with them
18:25:35 [chaals]
[It would be nice to have some clearer information about what is really happening here - maybe a pointer to the two specs, or a summary of the proposed direction]
18:25:55 [fesch]
18:26:05 [fesch]
18:26:36 [AmeliaBR]
ACTION Rich to Coordinate with HTML-AAM editors regarding correct mapping for <svg> element, in a way consistent with the new graphics role mappings
18:26:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2019 - Coordinate with html-aam editors regarding correct mapping for <svg> element, in a way consistent with the new graphics role mappings [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-04-13].
18:27:43 [fesch]
18:27:44 [Brian]
chaals: Amelia, what's the email we're talking about?
18:28:07 [AmeliaBR]
18:28:28 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: It sounds like neither set of role mappings are ideal
18:28:52 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: we need role mappings that indicate it's a graphic, but allwo it to have child content. I'm not sure which of these do
18:29:03 [Brian]
fesch: in HTML generally means no children
18:29:24 [Brian]
chaals: implemented that way in SVG. It'd be strange to say it means on thing in one place and another in another
18:29:39 [Brian]
fesch: for the first go around, we were reusing group becuse it exists. It's ugly, but it exists.
18:30:15 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: what we've got, and we don't waant it to stay. Rich mentioned joanie, and she udaated webkit. I've had people come back and say "it sound's weird to say group"
18:30:40 [Brian]
fesch: rich may be better to address it. if APIs don't have an appropriate role, we're not gonna get them to put a new one in right away
18:30:42 [chaals]
18:31:38 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I don't know what the answer is, but we need to have one answer in all three specs. Not three answers in three specs.
18:31:49 [Brian]
fesch: Do we need to talk about this more today, with the action
18:31:59 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I don't think so, we need to do more investigation
18:32:13 [fesch]
Topic: Expectations for presentational element with title child
18:32:34 [Brian]
fesch: I think this topic also applies to desc
18:32:44 [fesch]
18:32:53 [fesch]
18:33:19 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: this was brought up by Joanie as she was trying to implement ... the way it's set in ARIA,
18:33:50 [Brian]
if an author gives role=presentation, none but also a global aria attribute, this is assumed to be an error and the role is ignored
18:33:54 [Brian]
fesch: tabindex too right
18:34:12 [chaals]
18:34:14 [chaals]
18:34:24 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: Joanie wanted to know if the title element was something too that would cause role of presentation to be ignored
18:34:47 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: Thsi is a wholy native SVG semantic, so this would be something we would need to define
18:35:03 [Brian]
chaals: this is a similarity that came up when looking at longdesc
18:35:16 [Rich]
Rich: titles show tooltips so they have to be there
18:35:29 [Brian]
chaals: If you have a title, this seems reasonable. role=presentation to hide pieces of the image seems like a mistake
18:35:32 [fesch]
18:35:39 [fesch]
ack chaals
18:35:54 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: the one use case brough up is if you used the title for a tooltip, but are trying to minimize duplication for screen readers
18:36:03 [Brian]
chaals: I don't know how you'd do that, I see the point
18:36:12 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: maybe have a visible label and the tooltip
18:36:21 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: not a great use case, but a possible one
18:36:42 [Brian]
chaals: I see the point. Inclined to suggest a better way as an answer to deal with that issue
18:37:24 [Brian]
chaals: If you have a visual label that will be rendered anyway. Text is rendered remakably well. Inclined to say if in doubt, make it not presentation.
18:37:59 [fesch]
ack fesch
18:38:11 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: agree, if it's content being exposed to a user don't use presentation. Our answer to Joanie would be that, yes, title and desc should override role="none" and I will make the change
18:38:41 [Brian]
fesch: any other opinons? I'm also of the opinion that title and desc means you have meaning and is probably a mistake
18:38:52 [Brian]
fesch: one use case is if you have a tiny item and use a tooltip
18:39:12 [Brian]
chaals: anyone on the call posing an objection?
18:39:38 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: do we want to bring this same issue up with the core group? The html title has the same issue
18:39:48 [Brian]
chaals: I would like to bring this up, and an action with WCAG
18:41:34 [Brian]
fesch: one clarrification, does that mean it's an error?
18:41:49 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: as in, should it show up as an error in a validator?
18:41:53 [Brian]
chaals: yes
18:42:15 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I think so, so I think we need normative language. Authors should not use role=none/presentation when using title/desc
18:42:32 [Brian]
Rich: do that for desc? Desc is not visible
18:42:47 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: why would you put desc if you were not trying to make it accessible to screen reader users?
18:43:00 [Brian]
fesch: what if you make an ancestor not visible?
18:43:10 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: not visible is different than role=none
18:43:36 [chaals]
proposed: RESOLUTION: Where an element has role=none or role=presentation and has a descendent title or desc element, user agents must ignore the role. Authors must not put role=none or role=presentation on elements that have descendent title or desc elements
18:44:04 [Brian]
Rich: tooltip is bad because there's a visual aspect to things. that's also consistent with what we're doing
18:44:22 [chaals]
+1 to the proposal
18:44:27 [fesch]
18:44:54 [Brian]
fesch: I'm sensing that when i modify the section in the aria spec i should modify this as well?
18:45:09 [fesch]
18:45:23 [AmeliaBR]
+1 to proposal
18:45:52 [Brian]
Rich: I'll see where that is appropiate in the aria spec
18:46:19 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: Ok, so we can make the resolution for SVG at least because it is a native semantic
18:46:26 [Brian]
RESOLUTION: Where an element has role=none or role=presentation and has a descendent title or desc element, user agents must ignore the role. Authors must not put role=none or role=presentation on elements that have descendent title or desc elements
18:46:52 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: Rich, you're taking an action about how to work this into the ARIA spec
18:47:28 [Brian]
ACTION chaals to Follow up with WCAG
18:47:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2020 - Follow up with wcag [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2016-04-13].
18:47:44 [chaals]
[sorry folks, have to go, as noted in email]
18:48:00 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make log public
18:48:03 [chaals]
18:48:03 [trackbot]
action-2020 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Follow up with wcag -- due 2016-04-13 -- OPEN
18:48:03 [trackbot]
18:48:10 [Brian]
ACTION fesch to work role=none/presentation into svg spec
18:48:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2021 - Work role=none/presentation into svg spec [on Fred Esch - due 2016-04-13].
18:48:52 [AmeliaBR]
18:48:52 [trackbot]
action-2021 -- Fred Esch to Work role=none/presentation into svg spec -- due 2016-04-13 -- OPEN
18:48:52 [trackbot]
18:50:09 [fesch]
Topic: Difference between table and spec
18:50:13 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: we have ten minutes left, Fred do you have naything to say about testable statements?
18:50:33 [Brian]
fesch: I apologize if I'm confused, if you look at the agenda, will paste in stuff
18:50:33 [fesch]
Expected results in the table for accessible name calculations for AXAPI
18:50:35 [fesch]
shows AXDescription in the table where according to the formula in the core
18:50:37 [fesch]
name spec AXTitleUIElement should be exposed. Joanie indicated that until
18:50:38 [fesch]
she (linux) and apple see value in exposing the ATK_RELATION_LABELLED_BY
18:50:40 [fesch]
relationship, that will use AXDescription without the labelledby
18:50:41 [fesch]
relationship for SVG. Joanie suggested that the spec not be changed, to
18:50:43 [fesch]
allow future use, but for CR exit criteria we should focus on AXDescription
18:50:44 [fesch]
only. Since that is what she and apple do and I cannot think of a useful
18:50:46 [fesch]
reason for them to change, I express the actual expected results in the
18:50:47 [fesch]
table. (Please note, I may have bungled the explanation/properties
18:50:49 [fesch]
involved, but we do have a difference between the spec and tests - Joanie
18:50:50 [fesch]
may be able to attend our meeting to explain if needed). This will be a
18:50:52 [fesch]
discussion topic at our next SVG a11y meeting.
18:50:53 [fesch]
When Joanie pointed out the discrepancy between implementation and spec, I
18:50:55 [fesch]
asked Rich to file a bug (which he did). If we agree to Joanie's and
18:50:56 [fesch]
apple's point of view, then Rich will have to close the bug I asked him to
18:50:58 [fesch]
file (sorry Rich).
18:50:59 [fesch]
Automated Testing for 2 platforms
18:51:01 [fesch]
Joanie has written about 200 SVG accessibility tests into webkit's
18:51:02 [fesch]
regression testing. I think we should use these tests as part of CR
18:51:04 [fesch]
testing. This will be a discussion topic at our next SVG a11y meeting.
18:51:19 [Brian]
fesch: for Apple they just use AXDescription, and I think Joanie does the ATK relationby
18:51:33 [Brian]
fesch: I think there is a disconnect between what they're saying and what apple has implemented
18:52:06 [Brian]
fesch: first thing, need to make sure I know what the situtation is. What do we need to do to have the name calculation reflect what happens in SVG with Apple.
18:52:25 [Brian]
Rich: We can rewrite the steps, but it sounds like you want to change core to handle this.
18:52:34 [Brian]
Rich: haven't looked in detail at the AccName computation
18:52:38 [Rich]
18:53:07 [Brian]
Rich: this is the base for all languages. Now, we can override it. You're saying there's a bug, even for html, correct?
18:53:27 [Brian]
fesch: I don't know that's true. I'm going off what Joanie say about exposing an extra relationship
18:53:40 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: From what I understood, they code the relationship on form elements only
18:53:55 [Brian]
fesch: isn't this AXAPI
18:54:00 [AmeliaBR]
18:54:15 [Brian]
fesch: ATK ATSPI is what joanie uses on linux?
18:54:37 [Brian]
Rich: Correct. They don't expose the aria relationships for labelling in Mac
18:55:04 [Rich]
18:55:25 [Brian]
Rich: They don't have a ...
18:55:41 [Brian]
fesch: AXTitle was the issue. They use AXDescription
18:56:32 [Brian]
Rich: Unless you have one label it always points to a description
18:56:54 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: the more general issue is should we force new behavior on APIs when they're already happy with a simpler model?
18:57:11 [Brian]
Rich: I think we should fit into the general scheme they're using
18:57:34 [Brian]
fesch: I think what Joanie told me they do is that, if you have one or many, it comes out as AXDescription and there is no link back
18:57:45 [Brian]
Rich: did htey check the AXTitle? That's different than this table
18:58:05 [Brian]
fesch: that's what i'm saying. They only use AXTitle when they use a widget or form elements
18:58:21 [fesch]
18:58:32 [Brian]
Rich: what happens if they have a role="text" and aria-labelledby and it's inside a form?
18:58:39 [fesch]
18:58:55 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: nothign in this conversation makes me think we need special rules for SVG
18:59:02 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: this is really a core discussion for the API call
18:59:28 [Brian]
fesch: I want this group to be aware that I tried to sync the testable statements to what Joanie said was implemented.
18:59:48 [Brian]
fesch: If you don't want me to do that, this is something we can discuss
19:00:13 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I think it makes sense for now to note this as an issue, in order for tests to test the SVG aspects
19:00:36 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: as long as we clearly document the choices we've made, just so we can update it based on the decisions are made for the core spec
19:00:47 [Brian]
fesch: I just wanted to log this so people are aware
19:01:03 [Brian]
fesch: we've run out of time, any other topics?
19:01:03 [fesch]
19:01:27 [Brian]
Rich: I think we need to sit down with joanie and see what state it's in, for the name and description
19:01:40 [Brian]
fesch: I can bring in the list, it may be just my misunderstanding of what she's saying
19:02:25 [Brian]
fesch: On list we'll figure it out with Joanie. It's bigger than SVG, but we'll figure it out and put it on the ARIA list
19:03:02 [AmeliaBR]
rrsagent, make minutes public
19:03:02 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AmeliaBR. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:03:11 [AmeliaBR]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:03:37 [AmeliaBR]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AmeliaBR
19:03:59 [AmeliaBR]
rrsagent, make logs public
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