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19:58:16 <LJWatson> agenda+ Timeline
19:58:26 <LJWatson> agenda+ Bug triage
19:58:32 <LJWatson> agenda+ Interop testing
19:58:41 <LJWatson> agenda+ Regular call time
19:58:51 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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20:04:37 <chaals> Meeting: HTML editing
20:04:48 <plh> scribeNick: plh
20:05:32 <chaals> chair: chaals
20:05:53 <chaals> present+ chaals, plh, steveF, alexD
20:06:03 <chaals> Topic: timeline
20:06:04 <plh> present+ Leonie
20:06:24 <plh> Chaals: goal is to ship a REC within this charter
20:06:30 <plh> ... which means PR in August
20:06:44 <plh> ... and CR by mid-June to run the patent clock
20:06:52 <plh> ... so 2 variables
20:06:59 <plh> ... do we get enough stuff done by then?
20:07:06 <plh> ... and do we get consensus from the WG?
20:07:17 <plh> ... the approach is:
20:07:28 <plh> ... lots of changes: ficaption, summary, etc.
20:07:34 <plh> ... things that didn't make into HTML 5
20:07:45 <plh> ... we'd like to improve editorially as much as we can
20:07:59 <plh> Steve: can we change tyhings during CR period?
20:08:14 <plh> Chaals: yes, but we assume we'll have a branch
20:08:23 <plh> ... and we'll leave it alone at that point
20:08:33 <plh> ... and do changes on 5.2
20:08:49 <plh> Steve: so CR by mid-June. this gives us 2 months
20:08:54 <plh> Chaals: yes
20:09:05 <plh> ... we won't get everything we'd like by then
20:09:16 <plh> Steve: when do we identify things to be pulled out?
20:09:32 <plh> Chaals: I'm going to start later tonight Call for Consensus
20:09:40 <plh> ... but if things don't work, they should work
20:09:43 <plh> s/work/go/
20:09:55 <plh> ... like outline stuff
20:09:57 <plh> ... accesskey
20:10:05 <plh> ... this dooesn't work
20:10:23 <plh> Steve: accesskey attribute?
20:10:39 <plh> Chaals: no the changes between html 4 and html 5 are all fantasy
20:10:49 <plh> ... html 5 stuff should be reverted
20:10:53 <plh> Steve: re outline algo
20:11:04 <plh> ... it's no problem sitting since he doesn't have requirements
20:11:13 <plh> ... but it needs better explanation
20:11:20 <plh> ... and needs to be broken out
20:11:58 <plh> ... [...]
20:13:40 <plh> Chaals: if it's an element that never got implemented, we just pull it out
20:14:03 <plh> ... we might need call for consensus for some
20:14:30 <plh> ... substantive changes should be justified
20:14:37 <plh> ... and be accompanied by tests
20:15:17 <plh> Alex: what about updates to the WD?
20:15:21 <plh> Chaals: montly
20:15:25 <plh> ... next update is next week
20:16:07 <chaals> PLH: WOuld like to take the snapshot Friday for publication
20:16:33 <chaals> CMN: Seems fair, I'll shoot for Friday then.
20:17:46 <plh> Plh: I'll take whatever is in the repo on Friday then
20:17:51 <chaals> zakim, close item 1
20:17:51 <Zakim> agendum 1, Timeline, closed
20:17:52 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:17:52 <Zakim> 2. Bug triage [from LJWatson]
20:18:18 <chaals> Zakim, take up item 3
20:18:18 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Interop testing" taken up [from LJWatson]
20:19:30 <plh> Chaals: approach is that we want tests to justify changes
20:19:34 <Travis> Travis has joined #html
20:19:40 <plh> ... HTML 5.0 got through an interop test
20:20:08 <plh> ... if all the changes that we make come with tests, that should be a no brainer to go back to the Director
20:20:27 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:20:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-html-minutes.html chaals
20:20:50 <plh> ... while I would like to have tests for the testharness, it's not a requirement
20:20:57 <plh> ... just a nice to have
20:21:04 <plh> ... so manual tests are fine
20:21:29 <plh> ... in the long term, we'll keep doing better
20:21:44 <plh> Leonie: is there any template or structure for tests?
20:21:47 <plh> Chaals: yes
20:21:52 <plh> ... testharness
20:22:37 <plh> Plh: I'm happy to help
20:24:15 <plh> ACTION: plh to organize a testharness teaching session
20:26:05 <plh> Chaals: anounce it to public-html
20:27:03 <plh> Plh: I'll organize a doodle poll
20:28:05 <plh> Charles: does the testing plan make sense to you?
20:28:16 <plh> Plh: yes, as long as we cut out features that are not implemented enough
20:28:51 <plh> Charles: agreed. nothing should stop us from being ruthless
20:29:58 <plh> Leonie: do we have a list of things to remove?
20:30:02 <plh> Charles: I have 4
20:30:09 <plh> Travis: +1 to cut
20:30:21 <plh> Alex: what's our bar? 2 browsers
20:30:35 <chaals> q+
20:30:55 <plh> Steve: are we going to vary from the HTML5 exit criteria?
20:31:03 <plh> ... it was 2 rendering engines
20:31:13 <plh> Travis: it was passive permissive
20:31:21 <plh> ... because it was widely deployed
20:31:43 <plh> q+
20:31:48 <plh> ack chaals
20:32:07 <plh> Chaals: other parts have not been tested and were never implemented
20:32:23 <plh> ... so a c ouple of engines
20:32:34 <plh> ... but there is no general rule at W3C
20:32:52 <plh> ... having implementers swearing they'll do it might be convincing
20:32:53 <SteveF> exit criteria for html5 https://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html
20:33:18 <plh> ... but having implementers saying they'd like to remove it, might make it the other way
20:33:48 <chaals>  "is sufficiently clear, complete, and relevant to market needs, to ensure that independent interoperable implementations of each feature of the specification will be realized"
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20:34:00 <plh> Steve: we need to have those rules written down
20:34:11 <plh> ... why not just reused the ones from HTML5?
20:34:20 <plh> ... and do a Call for Consensus to use that again
20:34:42 <chaals> ack me
20:34:44 <chaals> ack pl
20:35:58 <chaals> q+ to say yeah, let's make something based on those criteria
20:36:17 <chaals> ack me
20:36:17 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say yeah, let's make something based on those criteria
20:36:18 <LJWatson> +1 to public permissive v3 exit criteria
20:37:05 <plh> Chaals: when we get to CR, we don't need to spend a month writing a full test report
20:37:33 <plh> Steve: we've got to have something to define our criteria
20:37:44 <plh> ... because people we'll be asking questions
20:37:58 <chaals> s/when we get to/If we make these requirements part of the acceptance for each change, then when we enter/
20:38:01 <plh> ... reusing the ones from HTML 5.0 means the work is already done for us
20:38:29 <plh> ... if we spit up the spec and flag things up for removal...
20:38:45 <plh> Alex: I have a tool that can run through the APIs in the spec
20:39:05 <plh> ... how about I create issues on those who don't have 2 implementations?
20:39:40 <plh> ... I'll raise issues
20:39:45 <plh> [All: +1]
20:39:53 <arronei> s/Alex/Arron
20:40:35 <plh> Arron: I hope to have the info in the next 2 or 3 minutes. it's a public tool
20:40:59 <arronei> http://aka.ms/apicatalog/
20:41:00 <plh> Chaals: I'll setup a call for consensus to the Group for the exit criteria
20:41:28 <plh> ACTION: Charles to get the Group to decide on the HTMl exit criteria
20:41:34 <chaals> ACTION: Chaals to CfC on "exit criteria" as a requirement for accepting any change
20:42:19 <plh> ACTION: Arron will enter issues based on API implementation feedback
20:43:01 <chaals> zakim, agenda?
20:43:01 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
20:43:02 <Zakim> 2. Bug triage [from LJWatson]
20:43:02 <Zakim> 3. Interop testing [from LJWatson]
20:43:02 <Zakim> 4. Regular call time [from LJWatson]
20:43:10 <chaals> Topic: Bug Triage
20:43:28 <plh> Chaals: we cleaned out the a11y bugs and give action items away
20:43:43 <plh> ... but there are a bunch of other bugs from bugzilla
20:44:03 <plh> ... how do we triage github issues?
20:44:59 <LJWatson> http://github.adrianba.net/webstandards/HTML5-bugs.htm
20:46:48 <plh> Plh: asking the editors to sort out which bugs are 5.1 would be good
20:47:23 <plh> ACTION: Plh to create a milesone 5.1 in the repo
20:48:50 <chaals> agenda+ getting up to speed
20:49:23 <plh> Travis: what happened to the issues we don't migrate?
20:49:40 <plh> Chaals: they'll disapear over time
20:49:47 <plh> Travis: incubator group project?
20:50:24 <plh> Chaals: yes. the bugs might come back again however
20:52:06 <plh> Topic: Next Call?
20:52:22 <plh> s/Call/Bug Triage Call/
20:54:19 <plh> Leonie: let's finish the a11 bugs this week
20:54:37 <plh> ... and see where we are after that
20:55:02 <plh> Arron: we'll look into organizing a bug triage call
20:55:25 <plh> Topic: Getting up to speed
20:55:33 <plh> Chaals: do you feel in control?
20:55:40 <plh> ... or need help in figuring things out?
20:55:42 <chaals> q+
20:56:03 <plh> Travis: curious how we get the commmunity involved in discussing the issues
20:56:40 <plh> ... we could divolve into a benevolent editor situation but we should be more inclusive
20:56:50 <plh> ... how do we say that an issue needs someone to look into it?
20:57:04 <plh> ... does it jump out of the incubation group?
20:57:21 <plh> Chaals: we have a label for question for the WG in github
20:57:28 <plh> ... and we need to practice that
20:57:46 <plh> ... once we start doing that, we'll need a tradition of answering :)
20:58:48 <plh> Chaals: the WhATWG spec is removing a lot of semantic elements
20:58:55 <plh> Steve: was an Aprils' fools
20:59:08 <plh> Chaals: yes
20:59:38 <plh> Steve: to get the Group involved, we'll need to write to them
21:02:10 <plh> Plh: weekly report? Twitter?
21:02:32 <plh> Travis: I'd like to ask people in the trenches
21:03:34 <plh> Plh: we can use the w3c twitter account
21:03:44 <plh> Steve: and point people to the github issue
21:05:04 <plh> https://twitter.com/htmlwg
21:05:35 <plh> Steve: we can build it up
21:06:47 <plh> ACTION: plh to find who has access to @htmlwg
21:07:40 <plh> Chaals: linking stuff in bikeshed
21:07:45 <plh> ... seems black art to me
21:08:02 <plh> Arron: I know how to link things
21:10:10 <plh> Alex: getting the community involved is important and getting things on github is also good rather than email
21:10:46 <plh> Chaals: formal comments need to be put into GitHub
21:12:40 <plh> Topic: Next meeting
21:12:56 <plh> April 26, same time 2000 Zulu
21:13:14 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:13:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-html-minutes.html chaals
21:13:15 <SteveF> example of tweet https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/704310868364935169
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