14:55:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:55:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/31-mobile-a11y-irc
14:55:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:55:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:55:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:55:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:55:13 <trackbot> Date: 31 March 2016
14:55:30 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:42 <jeanne> agenda+ CSUN recap
14:57:12 <jeanne> agenda+ Updates on Mobile Extension
14:57:14 <jeanne> agenda+ Understanding text for 2.5.4
14:57:37 <jeanne> agenda+ defintion of Web Content
15:00:04 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:13 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:01:45 <jeanne> agenda+ Mobile touch & pointer timeline
15:02:09 <jeanne> agenda+ Color contrast
15:02:23 <jeanne> agenda+ Next Steps
15:02:28 <jeanne> agenda?
15:03:27 <jeanne> zakim, order agenda 1,2,5,6,7,3,4
15:03:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'order agenda 1,2,5,6,7,3,4', jeanne
15:04:49 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:52 <jeanne> zakim, agenda order 1,2,5,6,7,3,4
15:05:52 <Zakim> ok, jeanne
15:06:00 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:06:00 <Zakim> agendum 1. "CSUN recap" taken up [from jeanne]
15:07:08 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
15:07:17 <jeanne> +1 CSUN
15:07:45 <David_> David_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:01 <jeanne> Kathy: Mobile was a topic discussed over and over in a number of contexts.
15:08:12 <jeanne> ... There were sessions on Android on Android N
15:08:23 <jeanne> ... new screenreader for Kindle called VoiceView
15:08:49 <jeanne> ... I talked with MS about Narrator on mobile and Windows platform.
15:09:06 <jeanne> ... W3C session that Jeanne & I did on our work
15:09:38 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
15:09:39 <jeanne> ... A WCAG Next session that talked about the Extensions and WCAG 2.1 or WCAG 3, and what could happen in the future
15:09:43 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
15:09:49 <jon_avila> q?
15:10:00 <jon_avila> q+
15:10:03 <jeanne> ... then there were other sessions, such as AutoComplete and how to get that to work
15:10:33 <jeanne> ... Jatin did a session on testing mobile accessibility
15:11:13 <jeanne> ... VoiceView seems to be a lot better than Talkback.  It allows navigation by heading and landmarks
15:11:43 <jeanne> ... it allows voice on setup, so a person with disabilities can set up their own phone.
15:11:58 <jeanne> ack jon
15:12:44 <jeanne> Jon: I went to session on Touchscreen accessibility.  They were doing research on touch screens and accessibility, like touch size.
15:12:58 <jeanne> ... Dwell time - how long someone holds the touch
15:13:03 <jeanne> ... Size is important
15:13:20 <jeanne> ... space between touch targets is less important when buttons are large.
15:14:09 <jeanne> ... Position of controls is important.  Things at top of screen are hard to touch.  Things at bottom are better.  Things on the sides are dependent on what hand the user is using.
15:14:32 <jeanne> ... people have a problem of touching off the screen
15:14:58 <jeanne> ... people push off the screen can push off the screen.
15:15:12 <jeanne> David: Did any of the users have dexterity problems?
15:15:45 <jeanne> Jon: they all did.  They worked on a drafting table on a gripping device so the device did mot move.
15:16:03 <jeanne> ... I will send a link to the session and got the business cards of the presenters.
15:16:08 <jeanne> +1 Jon
15:16:37 <jon_avila> Touchscreen user interface design for persons with dexterity impairments
15:16:57 <jon_avila> http://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/2016/sessions/index.php/public/presentations/view/296
15:17:57 <jon_avila> q+
15:18:44 <jon_avila> Custom action in Android https://www.novoda.com/blog/alternative-interfaces/
15:19:03 <jeanne> Jeanne: Verbosity of applications is an issue.  Balancing the needs of instructions to a first time user, vs. the repetition for experienced users.
15:19:16 <jeanne> Kathy: T hat was part of the autocomplete session.
15:19:52 <jeanne> ... also the instructions are not always relevant to mobile, like a "down arrow key".  People worked around it with long descriptions
15:20:25 <jeanne> Jon: Android now has local options similar to the iOS rotor control.  It isn't available on the web.
15:20:52 <jon_avila> q-
15:21:01 <jeanne> ... in the proposed 508 refresh, that is a part of the proposal, but we don't have that on the web.
15:21:29 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
15:21:44 <chriscm> Hey everyone, I can't find the web meeting link...
15:22:17 <Kathy> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m53b1b60a6036509754cc27dae8b39a88
15:22:27 <Kathy> Meeting number: 	646 316 248
15:22:46 <jeanne> Jon: I think we should add this as a Technique about minimizing information.  It's related to combining links and icons, or maybe it would map with 4.1.2
15:23:45 <jeanne> David: There wasn't a lot of chat on the mobile side of things.  It was rather quiet in the mobile twitterverse.
15:23:45 <jon_avila> FWIW the Accessibility Scanner only works on Android 6
15:24:13 <jeanne> ... there was discussion from the Viking and Lumberjack about how long WCAG is.
15:24:35 <jeanne> ... EOWG is discussing how to address the perception that WCAG is so long.
15:24:41 <chriscm> meeting password?
15:25:04 <Detlev> matf
15:25:28 <jeanne> s/matf//
15:26:13 <Detlev> ah ok
15:26:25 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:26:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
15:26:49 <jeanne> David: There was a somewhat offhand suggestion that we talk with EOWG about creating Techniques.
15:26:59 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:26:59 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Updates on Mobile Extension" taken up [from jeanne]
15:27:34 <jeanne> Kathy: There was a discussion of getting the work that is already done in the Mobile Extension to the WCAG WG.
15:28:12 <jeanne> ... Our work on the next month will be addressing finalizing work so we can send it to WCAG to get it published.
15:28:30 <jeanne> ... the date that WCAG WG will review it will be April 12.
15:30:09 <jeanne> ... the Low Vision Task Force has mapped user needs and identified the gaps of where things are mapped to WCAG and where the gaps are.
15:30:23 <jeanne> ... WCAG will be looking at all those things
15:30:50 <jeanne> ... there is another group working on the future directions, such as WCAG 2.1 or WCAG 3.0
15:30:56 <jeanne> agenda?
15:31:54 <jeanne> Kathy: I kept talking about that mobile user needs also apply to desktop.  Low vision was saying that some low vision needs also apply to mobile.
15:32:33 <jeanne> ... there is a new WCAG Quick Ref.  We could get a mobile view into the Quick Ref guide based on the work we did last year.
15:32:50 <jeanne> ... the conversation is happening now and your ideas and opinions are welcome.
15:32:57 <jeanne> ... watch the WCAG mailing list.
15:33:21 <jeanne> ... we will get this information published. We need to get focused on finishing up the details so we can get it published.
15:34:31 <jeanne> David: I did an exercise where I pulled out all the info on possible success criteria
15:34:43 <jeanne> ... where is that document now?
15:34:53 <jeanne> Jeanne: I will find it for you after I finish scribing.
15:35:26 <jeanne> Kathy: Kim did a lot of work reorganizing the wiki, it should be there.
15:35:35 <jeanne> Jeanne: If not, I will find it and send it around.
15:36:34 <jeanne> Kathy: I had a conversation with Judy. The Appendix of the Note listed all the techniques that were applicable to mobile. That was a view of the existing techniques.  The idea is that information can go into the QuickRef.
15:36:49 <jeanne> ... the information is there, and we don't want to lose it. \
15:37:30 <jeanne> action: Jeanne to follow up with EricE about integrating a mobile view into the QuickRef.
15:37:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Follow up with erice about integrating a mobile view into the quickref. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-04-07].
15:38:10 <jeanne> Kathy: We don't want to wait until we figure out how things will be published.
15:38:35 <jeanne> ... what we want to reference is the Appendix which lists the existing Techniques that apply to mobile.
15:39:00 <jeanne> ... everything is focused right now to see how we can get this information published and available.
15:39:16 <jeanne> ... we want to get this in front of the WCAG WG and get their feedback
15:39:36 <jeanne> ... then we can put in significant effort to get all the Techniques done.
15:39:59 <jeanne> ... there is enough information now so that people will have some context to review it in.  We just need to finalize it.
15:40:04 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:40:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Mobile touch & pointer timeline" taken up [from jeanne]
15:40:26 <jeanne> Kathy: For next week, please look at your action items
15:40:57 <jeanne> ... please get things in so that by next weeks call, we can review the final language.
15:41:44 <jeanne> ... it doesn't need to be perfect, but we want it to be essentially complete.
15:42:15 <jeanne> David: Before CSUN, I spent a couple hours redoing the success criteria proposal.  Is it done?
15:42:31 <jeanne> Kathy: it is in Github.
15:42:58 <David_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3
15:43:06 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:43:09 <Alan_Smith> Joining late
15:43:43 <jeanne> ... is it final?
15:43:45 <jeanne> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer
15:44:24 <jeanne> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#tap-press-revocable
15:46:33 <jeanne> David: Remove the "or" in bullet #3.
15:48:42 <jeanne> Jon:  How can you focus something with the touch screen? It may be confusing to some people.
15:49:01 <jeanne> Kathy:  The focus gesture happens when you are using the screen reader.
15:49:15 <jeanne> David: That was why we used the word "selection"
15:49:34 <jeanne> ... Focus is mostly associated with gestures
15:50:07 <jeanne> Jon: I think people may be confused about touchend.  It is in the Understanding.
15:50:23 <David_> Jon: 2.5.3 doen't include drag and drop... might ask , how can you focus with touch screen. people might not understand the distinction focus and touch... but think its ok if Understanding is clear.
15:50:36 <jeanne> Jon: confirmation might be too strong.  Could we say feedback?
15:52:13 <jeanne> Jeanne: Should we add feedback? Confirmation might be required in critical applications, like deleting your checking account, but feedback would be more appropriate in less critical applications.
15:52:43 <jeanne> ... a feedback example would be opening a dropdown or expanding where the action would get feedback
15:52:58 <jeanne> David: do we need to define activation?
15:53:20 <jeanne> ... what we want is feedback for something they would regret.  No one regrets a dropdown
15:53:40 <jeanne> Jon: If you got to a new screen, that would be feedback.  Maybe feedback would be too broad.
15:54:23 <jeanne> Marc: the confirmation stands for some of the things we were discussing, like deleting an account would be confirmation.  The dropdown would be reversable.
15:55:21 <jeanne> David: Gregg made the point that if a person has a shakey hand and it is the action is not activated by touchDown, they would have a problem with that.
15:55:31 <Detlev> q+
15:55:44 <jeanne> Jon: If I did TouchUp, would that then be Reversible?
15:55:57 <jeanne> David: It would be separate.
15:56:36 <jeanne> ... when you touchUp it would be separate, that touchDown would be selection and touchUP would be activation.
15:57:01 <jon_avila> q?
15:57:35 <jeanne> Chris:  DIdn't we want to separate it even more, like in Android phone dialer.
15:57:59 <jeanne> ... if the action that is reversing is an irreversible action, then the system is broken.
15:58:20 <jeanne> ... try it on the Android device and see how the behavior actually works.
15:58:47 <jeanne> David: using a doubletap to activate it would be going too far.
15:58:59 <jeanne> Chris: Let's make the right decision, not the popular decision.
15:59:15 <jeanne> Kathy: Can we start putting definitions together?
15:59:38 <jeanne> action: David to create definitions for 2.5.3
15:59:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Create definitions for 2.5.3 [on David MacDonald - due 2016-04-07].
15:59:42 <Detlev> q-
15:59:59 <jeanne> Kathy: Please send it to the list in advance so people can discuss it.
16:00:55 <Alan_Smith> I find many functions on Android that are activated by touch down only even without a release or a slide away. It is only on touch down and focus.
16:00:58 <jeanne> Jon: I am using the phone dialer on Android, and if I slide my finger away then the key doesn't fire on touchup.
16:01:17 <jeanne> Chris:  I have watched people struggle with that -- people with dexterity issues.
16:01:28 <jeanne> Jon: that would make the whole SC invalid.
16:01:55 <jeanne> David:  People with repetitive strain injuries would hate us if we forced people to go to double-tap.
16:02:29 <jeanne> Chris: Maybe we need verbage that says that in addition to touch, they also should require switch use.
16:02:41 <jeanne> David: We already have that in keyboard accessibility in WCAG.
16:03:12 <jeanne> Detlev: It would be easier to understand this success criteria if we separate out the AT use and the non-AT use.
16:03:42 <jeanne> ... even in the SC, it is a specific thing, that didn't originally address screen reader users.
16:03:57 <jeanne> ... it is a different situation when the Screen reader is turned on.
16:04:09 <jeanne> Chris: That makes more sense
16:04:32 <jeanne> Jon: That was my intent originally. The screenreader use should be covered on 3.2.1 On Focus
16:04:46 <Alan_Smith> thanks need to drop. will check emails for next steps for next meeting.
16:05:51 <jeanne> Jon: I think we should make two separate success criteria.  Add language "without assistive technology"
16:06:37 <jeanne> ... AT changes the touch interface, so it behaves differently.  We need to be specific.
16:07:01 <jeanne> Detlev: I know it is not easy to read, but we need to be specific
16:07:10 <jeanne> David: Maybe we need to make up a term
16:07:33 <jeanne> ... "assistive technology that remaps" is a phrase we have used in the past.
16:08:59 <jeanne> action: David to make a proposal to the wiki and send to the list to address the concerns about assistive technology in 2.5.3
16:09:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Make a proposal to the wiki and send to the list to address the concerns about assistive technology in 2.5.3 [on David MacDonald - due 2016-04-07].
16:09:51 <jeanne> present+ Alan, Chris, David, Detlev, Jeanne, Kathy, Kim
16:09:57 <jeanne> present+ Marc
16:10:05 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
16:23:04 <jeanne> Chair: Kathy
16:30:08 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
16:32:07 <jeanne> regrets+ Alastair
16:32:12 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
16:33:30 <jeanne> s/ah ok//
16:33:36 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/31-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne