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12:54:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
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12:54:45 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
12:54:45 <trackbot> Date: 30 March 2016
12:55:03 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Mar/0020
12:55:17 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Mar/0020
12:55:26 <Steven> Chair: Steven
12:55:30 <Steven> Regrets: Philip
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12:58:47 <alain> alain has joined #forms
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13:04:21 <Steven> Present: Alain, Erik, Steven, Nick
13:05:35 <Steven> Topic: Whitespace MIP
13:05:35 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Mar/0017.html
13:05:35 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Mar/0019.html
13:07:38 <Steven> Steven: I had an action item to research what "whitespace" means.
13:10:26 <Steven> ... see my three mails about it.
13:10:42 <Steven> ... The most inclusive seems to be to include the 25 characters as defined by Unicode
13:11:03 <Steven> Erik: We should use the most inclusive possible
13:11:16 <Steven> ... but there may be some worth adding, such as ISO control characters
13:11:49 <Steven> Steven? Zero - 31
13:11:53 <Steven> s/?/:/
13:12:15 <Steven> Nick: What if you enter 0-31, those are not possible in XML
13:12:50 <Steven> ... I don't know which one's by heart
13:12:51 <Steven> Erik: If it is not official XML, are you still alowed to store it in an XML database? Good question.
13:12:57 <Steven> s/alo/allo/
13:13:18 <Steven> Erik: There is nothing restricting characters in our run-rime
13:13:27 <Steven> s/rime/time/
13:13:31 <ebruchez> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_character
13:14:01 <Steven> Erik: Some of those are already included, such as tab and linefeed.
13:14:13 <Steven> Steven: Form feed isn't in XML
13:14:42 <Steven> Erik: stripping those is nt hard.
13:14:59 <Steven> s/nt/not/
13:15:29 <Steven> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_character_property#General_Category
13:18:19 <Steven> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_character_property#Whitespace
13:18:34 <nvdbleek> https://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec-xml11
13:18:56 <ebruchez> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/730133/invalid-characters-in-xml
13:19:13 <ebruchez> "Basically, the control characters and characters out of the Unicode ranges are not allowed. This means also that calling for example the character entity &#x3; is forbidden."
13:20:55 <Steven> Steven: We have to serialise instances as XML, so presumably an 0x3 would be refused at the receiving end
13:21:11 <Steven> Erik: But there are other encodings such as URL and JSON
13:21:55 <Steven> Erik: In our implementation we can handle such characters in the data model
13:22:22 <Steven> ... I wonder how XQuery and so on allow such characters
13:22:31 <Steven> s/how/if/
13:22:44 <Steven> Erik: I can't find it at the moment
13:23:09 <nvdbleek> https://www.w3.org/TR/charmod/
13:24:37 <Steven> Nick: The XDM refers to the character model 1.1
13:26:05 <Steven> s/1.1/1.0/
13:27:27 <Steven> Steven: I propose we use this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_character_property#Whitespace
13:28:13 <Steven> Erik: I can live with that.
13:29:14 <Steven> Nick: So 'preserve' keeps characters, and might cause a problem?
13:29:35 <Steven> Steven: That has always been the case in XForms; that is the current situation
13:30:01 <Steven> Nick: Does that change the conformance of existing implementations?
13:30:48 <Steven> Erik: I don't think we say that control characters are allowed or disallowed on input.
13:31:29 <nvdbleek> I propose rewording ‘preserve: all whitespace is preserved’ to ‘preserve: all whitespace __should be__ preserved’
13:31:42 <Steven> Steven: I don't think this affects conformance of existing processors.
13:31:56 <Steven> Nick: I would like to change some wording in the text.
13:34:08 <Steven> ... I would like "should be" to be used in the definitions
13:34:56 <Steven> Steven: It is only what is happening to whitespace, it doesn't affect other chatracters
13:35:00 <Steven> Nick: Ah, OK!
13:37:02 <Steven> Steven: Are you OK with this text "For
13:37:02 <Steven> the amount value, by default, whitespace is preserved, but since the
13:37:02 <Steven> schema lexical space for numbers allows leading and trailing whitespace,
13:37:02 <Steven> such whitespace (but not embedded whitespace) will not effect validity."
13:37:54 <Steven> Steven: last week you said that "space space 1 space space" was OK as input for a number
13:37:58 <Steven> Erik: Well, it works
13:38:25 <Steven> ... but it would be good if the spec referenced that correctly
13:39:13 <Steven> ... let me see if I can find it
13:41:09 <Steven> ... the  schema spec doesn't mention leading spaces in the lexical space
13:41:18 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#integer
13:41:22 <Steven> ... so I don't know why it's working
13:41:31 <Steven> Steven: [laughs]
13:41:40 <Steven> Steven: So who does that processing?
13:42:13 <Steven> Erik: I'm not sure, but Philip mentioned last week that schema checking of a number with leading space was working fine.
13:42:34 <Steven> ... it doesn't seem to be in the lexical space, but maybe something else is at work.
13:43:56 <ebruchez> "The input value is first converted to a value in the lexical space of the target type by applying the whitespace normalization rules for the target type (as defined in [XML Schema])."
13:45:17 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#d0e1654
13:45:40 <Steven> Steven: How about "For the amount value, by default, whitespace is preserved, but leading and trailing whitespace,
13:45:40 <Steven> does not effect validity "For the amount value, by default, whitespace is preserved, but leading and trailing whitespace,
13:45:40 <Steven> does not effect validity "For the amount value, by default, whitespace is preserved, but note that leading and trailing whitespace,
13:45:40 <Steven> does not effect validity."
13:46:06 <Steven> Steven: How about "For the amount value, by default, whitespace is preserved, but leading and trailing whitespace, does not effect validity."
13:46:33 <Steven> "For the amount value, by default, whitespace is preserved, but note that leading and trailing whitespace does not effect validity."
13:46:57 <Steven> Erik: Not sure if that is (officially) true
13:47:19 <Steven> Steven: Though it worked in two different places last week.
13:48:39 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#integer
13:49:20 <Steven> Erik: I found it!
13:49:27 <ebruchez> "whiteSpace is applicable to all ·atomic· and ·list· datatypes. For all ·atomic· datatypes other than string (and types ·derived· by ·restriction· from it) the value of whiteSpace is collapse and cannot be changed by a schema author; for string the value of whiteSpace is preserve; for any type ·derived· by ·restriction· from string the value of whiteSpace can be any of the three legal values."
13:49:30 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#rf-whiteSpace
13:50:04 <Steven> Steven: Yay!
13:50:50 <Steven> ... perfect!
13:51:32 <Steven> Erik: We need to discuss the processing model, at which time the processign occurs
13:51:38 <Steven> s/gn/ng/
13:52:14 <Steven> ... it is possible to link it to inputs, or recalculate
13:55:58 <Steven> Erik: We store data as a string.
13:59:58 <Steven> [Discussion of how data is stored and manipulated]
14:00:39 <Steven> Erik: Processing should occur at recalc, or as if, you can optimise.
14:00:56 <Steven> ... we do the broader, during recalc
14:01:24 <Steven> Nick: Couldn't you get loops then with string calculations?
14:01:35 <Steven> Erik: No it recalcs it once.
14:02:10 <Steven> Erik: You do the recalc, and then the whitespace.
14:03:21 <Steven> Steven: We've run out of time; I'll update the text and resubmit; please comment.
14:03:35 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
14:03:45 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
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14:08:37 <Steven> s/one's/ones/
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