15:48:55 RRSAgent has joined #hcls 15:48:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/29-hcls-irc 15:48:57 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:48:57 Zakim has joined #hcls 15:48:59 Zakim, this will be HCLS 15:48:59 ok, trackbot 15:49:00 Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference 15:49:00 Date: 29 March 2016 15:50:41 Topic: Draft of draft FHIR RDF page on github 15:50:41 http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf.html 15:50:41 Present: Rizwan Jagirdar (Nubasibe) 15:50:41 * Marc_Twagirumukiza (~Marc_Twagirumukiza@public.cloak) has joined #hcls 15:50:42 Eric: Tony looked at FHIR XML and modeled FHIR RDF using Protege and turtle. Side-by-side doc was a to-do list, but not oriented to the specs on the HL7 site. 15:50:43 ... Also overhauling: now discussing logical model instead of XML. 15:50:45 ... For reference we can look at the JSON represenation of Observation 15:50:47 http://hl7-fhir.github.io/observation#resource 15:50:49 eric: The Structure tab at that page shows the logical model of fhir:Observation 15:50:59 ... It defines the official FHIR data model for Observation 15:50:59 ... The XML and JSON tabs show how it looks in XML and JSON, defined in terms of examples. 15:50:59 ... Example JSON 15:50:59 ... It's a template that you can almost copy and paste for a working example. 15:51:01 ... If you click the XML tab it gives you more info, such as the cardinality 15:51:03 marc: The descriptions are automatically generated? 15:51:07 eric: They're auto generated from a publication process that starts with spreadsheets but ends with profiles. The text is in the spreadsheets. 15:51:08 marc: Is the JSON auto generated from the XML? 15:51:10 eric: No, from the structure definition. 15:51:12 tony: I think the original is in eclipse ecore 15:51:14 ... you can also get the StructureDefinition written in XML, if you click where it says "Alternate definitions" below the table: http://hl7-fhir.github.io/observation.profile.xml.html 15:51:17 eric: I've been working on an RDF version that follows this motif 15:51:19 http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf.html 15:51:23 eric: At the bottom of this doc in the "stuff to move elsewhere" is a Turtle-ish example corresponding to the XML and JSON tabs 15:51:26 ... I am also doing a ShEx version, which will be machine processable. 15:51:28 tony: Which is normative? 15:51:30 dbooth: Normally the prose version would be normative, because it can express any constraints, whereas formalisms are limited. If the formalism disagrees then it indicates a bug, which we need to fix. 15:51:33 eric: If we follow the FHIR approach, the profiles will be normative, and then the ShEx, OWL and RDF templates are all slaves to that, and if they are wrong then it's a bug to be fixed. 15:51:36 tony: Ontology is comparative to XML schema. 15:51:38 eric: ShEx is more comparable 15:51:40 ... The XML model is defined in part in XML Schema and in part in Schematron. 15:51:42 tony: If you generate all three from the source then fine. 15:51:44 eric: There was a FHIR freeze deadline at 5pm today. I probably won't make that deadline, but I might be able to get it onto the HL7 site. 15:51:47 tony: What about the namespace prefix? an empty one? 15:51:49 dbooth: Safer to use the fhir: prefix. People will imitate and copy what the see. 15:51:55 eric: Plan is to change everything to be compared to the logical model, and provide two renderings: faux-Turtle and ShEx 15:51:58 dbooth: Coloring the faux-Turtle will help also 15:52:00 ... Great progress! 15:52:02 dbooth: Next steps and help needed? 15:52:04 eric: Want to spend another week with it, then see what others think. 15:52:06 ... Goal is to break into 3 things: 1. fhir.org RDF page (like the XML and JSON pages), showing how extensions work, leaf values, etc. Not super formal, but must be intuitive like the XML and JSON pages. 15:52:10 ... But some pieces will go in other places, such as the Observations description. 15:52:11 ... Once we get that in, grahame is very quick about getting it deployed into the build process. 15:52:13 ... There is also a bunch of stuff that talks about ontologies. Trying to figure out what to do with that. Some should go into ontology.html document, but some has already been reworded. 15:52:16 ... Need to aim for SPARQL heads in the faux Turtle. 15:52:22 ... Purple marker along the edge in the doc means it is also in the ontology.html doc. 15:52:24 ... Examples should probably be in both; prose not. 15:52:26 http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf-SBS.html 15:52:28 eric: In the ontology.html doc, what's not there is the structure of the RDF as defined by what comes from the structure defs. 15:52:31 ... That's not needed there. 15:52:33 tony: Should we do the structure def to OWL mapping? 15:52:35 dbooth: sounds like a good idea 15:52:37 ... And it will be put into code in the build process too 15:54:56 Topic: Funding for W3C HCLS interest group 15:55:11 Eric: My funding comes from W3C to work on this. 15:55:26 ... HCLS interest group does not have enough paying members to pay me to work on it. 15:55:57 ... Two choices: Reduce expectations by turning it into a Community Group, which means that we cannot publish the same way. 15:56:13 ... Or get another full member, such as Accenture 15:56:54 ... i would rather scale up than down. Lots of opportunity to collaborate on data shapes work, schema.org work and other. 15:57:52 ... As in Interest Group, there's a tech plenary in Lisbon in September, we could meet there. 15:58:36 dbooth: Should people try to get their organizations to become members? If so how? 15:59:46 eric: yes. Affiliate membership is $7800, Full membership is ~$70k 16:00:36 ... Are there EMRs, big clinical systems, or someone who serves as code-in-the-middle like Accenture, it would be good to pursuade them. 16:01:21 marc: Tricky. I had the same discussion with Agfa. They used to be members, but hard to convince. 16:01:47 ... Can we draft a grant request, maybe $100k to NIH? 16:02:48 eric: NIH is tricky to get money out of. They have less jurisdiction about how they spend their money. Might be easier to go to a granting foundation. But the other problem is when renewal time we'll need support from at least 20 W3C members to renew the group. 16:04:44 lloyd: Not clear on what the relationship within W3C compared with HL7 and fhir.org . Work on this spec should be part of the FHIR spec. Cooperation with other W3C and affiliated efforts should be ongoing. 16:04:49 ... Not clear on the scope. 16:05:29 eric: This started within HCLS group as COI (clinical observation interop) 16:06:16 dbooth: The FHIR RDF work began as a joint W3C-HL7 effort. 16:07:16 rob: Cecil has interest at some level. Could explore that connection again. 16:08:12 thomas: given the lack of clarity on W3C HL7 roles, would it be an impediment to funding? 16:09:11 dbooth: Next steps? 16:09:38 ACTION: Eric to talk to Cecil Lynch about possibly Accenture becoming a full member 16:09:38 Created ACTION-52 - Talk to cecil lynch about possibly accenture becoming a full member [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2016-04-05]. 16:10:03 If we cannot get enough funding, then we'll have to change to a Community Group. 16:10:42 Topic: 5pm call 16:10:48 dbooth: Who can make it? 16:11:39 dbooth: eric, rob, lloyd, dbooth 16:12:02 Topic: Lisbon face-to-face meeting in September? 16:12:46 eric: Could meet with the schema.org group. Their clinical part showed up again recently. 16:13:02 ... Could also meet with the Data Shapes group and the Best Practices on the Web goup 16:13:08 s/goup/group/ 16:13:52 dbooth: International travel is harder. I would not be able to attend. 16:14:50 dbooth: Would anyone be able to make it? (Nobody but eric able to make it.) 16:20:15 Present+ David Booth, EricP, Rob Hausam, Darrell Woelk, Jagirdir, Lloyd McKenzie, Marc T, Thomas Lukasik, Tony Mallia 18:59:16 Zakim has left #hcls 21:03:31 dbooth_ has joined #hcls 21:05:44 Topic: ========= 5pm Call =========== 21:07:58 Topic: Faux Turtle 21:09:05 rhausam has joined #HCLS 21:09:07 ttp://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf.html at the bottom is an example of faux-turtle 21:13:04 dbooth: Suggest putting the extra rdf:type arcs in comments: :Obervation.identifier : [ a :Identifier ]; 21:17:43 grahame: I'll draft somethign next week that looks like the XML and JSON 21:29:18 eric: Suggest ':myAllergyIntolerance fhir:nodeRole fhir:treeRoot' on root node 21:29:29 ... because i got pushback on using a boolean predicate 21:31:18 grahame: fine 21:31:23 dbooth: ok with me 21:32:39 Topic: RDF Page 21:33:13 grahame: what to do with the rdf.html page in the next few hours? 21:37:46 grahame: I could also generate shex in the doc. That would allow mini-connectathon in Montreal, to allow validation against the ShEx. 21:37:57 dbooth: That woudl be an excellent forcing function. 21:39:09 grahame: how far through page http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf.html should i try to put into the hl7 rdf.html page? 21:40:12 eric: until Resource Root 21:41:00 eric: it would be nice if the JSON, XML and turtle all used the same bits of an observation. 21:41:20 dbooth: could then try round tripping it 21:43:29 Topic: Identifying the root node 21:43:38 eric: Suggest ':myAllergyIntolerance fhir:nodeRole fhir:treeRoot' on root node 21:43:55 dbooth: Any objections to changing to that? eric got pushback on using a boolean. 21:43:59 (no objections) 21:45:06 Topic: Date literals 21:47:52 https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/23 21:48:01 Prior Discussion: 21:48:01 https://www.w3.org/2016/03/01-hcls-minutes.html#item06 21:51:17 dbooth: Are coercions between xsd:gYear xsd:gYearMonth xsd:date xsd:dateTime a part of standards, or just commonly implemented in SPARQL engines? 21:51:37 eric: Standard casting in SPARQL, which delegates the spec to XPath 21:52:41 dbooth: Therefore there would be convenience in using those datatypes explicitly in FHIR RDF. 21:54:21 ... But that means that the FHIR XML/JSON --> FHIR RDF translator must check each FHIR date literal to see which xsd type it matches. 21:54:54 grahame: this comes up with numerics also 21:55:32 eric: but printf will handle those. dates are the only ones that are unions. 21:57:34 eric: At present the converter to FHIR RDF does not handle this date stuff yet. 22:00:26 dbooth: Are we agreed that FHIR RDF should generate the specific 4 xsd date types? Any objections? 22:00:37 (No objections) 22:01:25 AGREED: FHIR RDF should generate the specific 4 xsd date types 22:01:34 AGREED: Use xs: prefix instead of xsd: 22:02:59 Present+ Grahame, Lloyd, Rob Hausam, David Booth, Eric P 22:03:12 Chair: David Booth 22:03:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 22:03:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/29-hcls-minutes.html dbooth