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11:50:03 <phila> regrets+ Serena
11:50:16 <phila> chair: Renato
11:50:43 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Kick_off_meeting
11:50:59 <phila> Meeting: P&OE Kick Off Telco
11:51:12 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:51:19 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:51:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes.html phila
11:51:38 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:51:42 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:51:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes.html phila
11:51:52 <ivan> ivan has joined #poe
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11:55:45 <james> Hello Caroline
11:56:29 <ivan> phila?
11:58:24 <phila> -> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m67fcc76d04e7fcfc749be595af5174e7 WebEx
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12:00:51 <renato> hi all...please call in with webex now
12:01:28 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
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12:02:22 <phila> present+ phila
12:02:34 <magyarblip> present+ magyarblip
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12:03:23 <magyarblip> strangely, no, i just picked a random couple of words that i didn't think anyone would use way back in the early days of the web
12:03:41 <victor-rodriguez> Hello all! I have been approved by my W3C AC Representative only yesterday to participate in the group.
12:03:59 <renato> welcome Victor
12:04:07 <benws> benws has joined #poe
12:04:16 <victor-rodriguez> However I have not yet received the password to participate in the call :(ç
12:04:21 <renato> poe
12:04:25 <simonstey> ./nick <name> changes your irc nickname
12:04:38 <victor-rodriguez> thanks
12:04:42 <simonstey> poe @ victor
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12:05:07 <jo> present+ jo
12:05:18 <jo> present+ carolineb
12:05:47 <renato> present+ renato
12:06:06 <renato> poe
12:06:09 <smyles> present +smyles
12:06:48 <victor-rodriguez> already in. thanks.
12:08:28 <smyles> present+ smyles
12:08:33 <paulj> present+ paulj
12:08:36 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:08:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes.html phila
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12:08:46 <james> present+ james
12:08:58 <simonstey> present+ simonstey
12:09:02 <victor-rodriguez> present +victor-rodriguez
12:09:13 <msteidl> present# msteidl
12:09:29 <msteidl> present+ msteidl
12:09:34 <victor-rodriguez> nick vrodriguez
12:09:40 <victor-rodriguez> ./nick vrodriguez
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12:09:43 <phila> present+ victor-rodriguez
12:09:59 <vrodriguez> present +vrodriguez
12:10:05 <phila> renato: Welcomes everyone
12:10:28 <phila> renato: Highlights, Ben Whittam-Smith as co-chair
12:10:29 <SabrinaKirrane> present+ SabrinaKirrane
12:10:32 <U6022305_> present+ benws
12:11:07 <phila> renato: First - looking at the agenda https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Kick_off_meeting
12:11:21 <phila> renato: This is just the Kick off meeting, getting to know each other etc.
12:11:29 <phila> ... Some history, how we got here
12:11:42 <phila> ... And we'll talk more about logistics at the end, F2F meeting proposals.
12:11:47 <phila> Topic: Introductions
12:12:03 <phila> renato: We haver a lot of new names, not everyone knows each other etc.
12:12:29 <phila> renato: Introduces himself. Representing Monegraph
12:12:41 <phila> ... Been working in the rights management space for a long time.
12:13:03 <phila> benws: Intruduces self, from Thomson Reuters
12:13:13 <phila> ... Focusses on rights management and permissioning, so this is very relevant for us
12:13:21 <jo> s/Intruduces/Introduces
12:13:36 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
12:13:36 <Zakim> Present: Ivan_Herman, phila, magyarblip, jo, carolineb, renato, smyles, paulj, james, simonstey, msteidl, victor-rodriguez, ;), SabrinaKirrane, benws
12:13:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see msteidl, SabrinaKirrane, benws, vrodriguez, magyarblip, simonstey, paulj, james, smyles, ivan, Zakim, RRSAgent, CarolineB, jo, renato, phila, trackbot
12:14:19 <simonstey> present- ;)
12:15:35 <jo> scribe: jo
12:15:36 <jo> phila introduces self and says his role is to make sure that meetings run to
12:15:52 <jo> w3c process and make sure things run to plan, help chairs etc.
12:16:19 <jo> phila: goes on to talk about process etc.
12:16:38 <jo> s/phila introduces/phila: introduces
12:17:18 <jo> … and to help people use the systems and tools and IPR management etc.
12:17:34 <phila> scribe: phila
12:17:39 <jo> … some people here today not members of group and that ok only for today
12:17:41 <phila> renato: Goes through list
12:18:12 <phila> Godfrey: I've just joined the call today. not sure who I'll be representing yet. I've been editing the LCC model
12:18:29 <phila> ... I consulted people like DOI, Plus etc. I'll work out how I'm going to participate.
12:18:40 <phila> ivan: I am also on the W3C staff
12:18:57 <phila> ... my role these days is leading the Digital Publoshing Activity
12:19:14 <phila> ... We have been running that activity for 3 years. Lots of activity there and of course rights are important there.
12:19:43 <phila> ... May also be worth mentioning, I was Phil's predecessor in the Sem Web activity, so I know many of you that way.
12:20:13 <phila> james: Hello, I'm here from the Digital Catapult. We overlapp with the Copyright Hub. We use ODRL
12:20:24 <phila> ... More interested in looking at pesonal data, IoT etc.
12:20:40 <phila> jo: I'm helping the Copyright Hub
12:20:57 <phila> ... I have some previous expereince with W3C (understatement)
12:21:11 <phila> msteidl: I'm from IPTC, standards body for the news agencies.
12:21:16 <benws> benws has joined #poe
12:21:18 <phila> ... representing the Copyright Hub here
12:21:52 <phila> magyarblip: Patrick Johnson representing Wiley. We're produers and consumers of content. Prior to working at Wiley, I was at TR for 10 years so background in financial services.
12:22:23 <phila> paulj: I'm cief tech advisor to the RIAA. Work on identifiers, DOIs, ISNI, also been talking to the Copyright Hub.
12:23:07 <phila> SabrinaKirrane: Respresents the University of Economics in Vienna. Just moved here from Ireland whjere I was at INSIGHT Ireland (nee DERI)
12:23:44 <phila> simonstey: I'm the other guy from Vienna. Doing PhD in the area of policies, rights management. Focus on ODRL which I've used for a while.
12:23:55 <ivan> s/Publoshing/Publishing/
12:24:24 <phila> smyles: Stuart Myles, director of info managemenet at Associated press. Chair of IPTC . Working with ORDL/RightsML. WE have implemented ODRL in our news feeds.
12:24:34 <phila> ... So excited about creating an official standard.
12:24:59 <phila> vrodriguez: Post Doc at UPM.,Working on rights and policies for a long time. Interested in ODRL, RDF, LD etc.
12:25:37 <phila> CarolineB: I'm Caroline Boyd from the Copyright Hub.
12:26:04 <phila> ... The CH is about transmitting info about rights on the Web. Using ODRL.
12:26:47 <simonstey> maybe muted
12:28:17 <phila> Topic: Brief background
12:28:27 <phila> renato: How we got to Memphis
12:28:53 <phila> ... We came out of a Community Group and even that has a history that predates the group. It's been 15 years...
12:29:07 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2000/12/drm-ws/
12:29:10 <phila> ... Back in 2001... There was a DRM workshop that W3C hosted
12:29:51 <phila> ... That was a long time ago. Lots of actvitiy in DRM space, rights expression languages. From that began the rights framework group, but ODRL as a language continued on its own.
12:30:04 <phila> ... Version 1.1 of ODRL was a W3C Note.
12:30:06 <renato> https://www.w3.org/TR/odrl/
12:30:24 <phila> renato: We worked on version 2 for many years
12:31:07 <phila> ... now have version 2.1 which is the most recent major version and that's the one in use by IPTC et al.
12:31:37 <phila> ... Then late last year, we were able to move towards the WG we're now starting.
12:31:49 <phila> ... The proposal went throughy for the CG to become this WG.
12:32:26 <phila> ... So there's a long history. There's a lot of work in them. So there's a strong base for this Wg to start from.
12:32:41 <phila> ... So in that sense. we're not a normal WG. We have an existing solution.
12:33:01 <phila> ... We're chartered to take the ODRL specs through the Rec Track with opportunities to meet new use cases and make improvements.
12:33:26 <phila> q+
12:33:40 <phila> ack p
12:33:50 <jo> q+ to ask phil to illustrate a queue note
12:33:56 <jo> ack me
12:33:56 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to ask phil to illustrate a queue note
12:34:24 <phila> jo: If the queue is long, it's helpful to say what you want to talk about.
12:34:56 <phila> phila: To do that, type 'q+ to ask what's for lunch?' etc. Key syntax is "q+ to ..."
12:35:02 <phila> Topic: The charter
12:35:05 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/charter
12:35:15 <phila> renato: I'm hoping most people have reviewed the charter.
12:35:25 <phila> ... That's what W3C Members have asked us to do.
12:35:33 <phila> ... Highlights what is Out of SCope
12:36:10 <phila> ... We are focussing on expressions of permissions and obligations, simple statements. We're not talking about enforcement mechanisms or legal jurisdictional issues.
12:36:26 <phila> ... The List of deliverables is straightforward. It's taken from the outputs of the ODRL CG
12:36:35 <phila> ... We can issue other documents (Notes)
12:36:47 <phila> ... So we can/should create a use cases doc
12:36:57 <phila> ... And we've been asked to develop a formal semantics Note
12:37:02 <phila> q+
12:37:23 <phila> renato: We have a 2 year time frame. We should ebd by the end of 2017
12:37:31 <phila> ... Some take a lot longer.
12:37:42 <smyles> q+
12:37:44 <phila> ... As we're starting from a stable foundation, we should be able to make those
12:38:01 <phila> ... Lots of milestone dates for next year for final stages of the docs
12:38:22 <phila> ... What we'd like to do is to take the current 5 specs as they are and turn them into working drafts more or less as they are.
12:38:38 <phila> ... So first working drafts will be pretty much what we have today.
12:38:49 <phila> ... Its' a way to state to the communityt hat this is where we're starting from.
12:39:00 <phila> ... So we can hope to get tpo Candidate recs next year.
12:39:09 <phila> ... New use cases, new requirements etc.
12:39:27 <phila> ... But the genera; idea is to get the current specs out as FPWDs
12:40:09 <phila> ... We can spend time this year looking for new use cases
12:40:29 <phila> ... There are dependencies anad liaisons. Ivan to keep up in touch with the DPub community
12:40:40 <phila> ... Some requirements from I18n and privacy
12:42:07 <jo> phila: there are some things that all w3 specs must follow, e.g. internationalisation, accessibilty, privacy and security
12:42:29 <jo> … don’t think that any of that is a burden but that is what those liasion are about
12:43:01 <jo> … also the TAG which has the job of looking after the Web as a whole, URLs etc. Profound issues
12:43:16 <phila> q?
12:43:19 <jo> … we may ask the TAG to consider. These things won’;t necessarily come up
12:43:27 <jo> … but they are there to sue
12:43:33 <jo> s/sue/use/
12:43:42 <phila> ack me
12:43:43 <benws> q?
12:44:16 <jo> phila: want to talkabout list of deliverables
12:44:39 <jo> … the work that was done before and during community gp, all without the formalised process
12:44:53 <jo> … now you can see the impact of doing that formally from the list of deliverables
12:45:16 <jo> … you all have extensive experience of using ODRL, but we still need to do use cases
12:45:33 <jo> … and the formal sematics thing comes from member feedback
12:45:51 <jo> … also want to talk about in scope and out of scope
12:46:03 <jo> … (scribe could not hear this bti)
12:46:29 <jo> s/bti/bit/
12:47:50 <phila> scribe: phila
12:48:31 <phila> renato: We started ttalking about ODRL as a policy language and not a rights language. So apart from the acronym, we don't actually talk about rights.
12:48:36 <phila> ack smyles
12:49:07 <phila> smyles: Two questions. One is - on the deliverables. What's the diff between the formal semantics and the information model and the ontology?
12:49:24 <ivan> q+
12:49:28 <phila> renato: I think the idea os to have a more mathematical model. Formal notation to express the smantics
12:49:41 <phila> ... SO not just duties - it's maths
12:50:12 <phila> smyles: On DRM... speaking for AP, we have no intention to us this kind of tech for DRM. Its' about efficient advice for editors.
12:50:29 <phila> ... But my question is that one of the things thast W3C requires is two implementations
12:50:46 <phila> ... so I guess if that's correct, how are going to address that without it being DRM?
12:51:00 <phila> ... Is there a 2 implementation step.
12:51:09 <phila> ack i
12:51:52 <phila> ivan: I was wondering about both of your questions smyles. I am just as puzzled about the formal semantics. If the vocab is defined in OWL, then an RDf vocab is prob suffiicient. When it comnes ot the real work
12:52:34 <phila> ... We had a highly methematical, compliacted thing for RDF.
12:53:02 <phila> ... For Candidate recommendation, you have to show that whatever we define is implentable.
12:53:22 <phila> ... You usually have test cases that cover all the various features. Independent implementations etnc.
12:53:33 <phila> ... We have had the problem before of what the heck this means whewn you have a vocabulary.
12:53:46 <phila> ... It's not clear what an implementation means.
12:54:02 <phila> ... A WG has the freedom to define what testing means.
12:54:16 <phila> ... The definition needs to be good enough to satisfy the Director.
12:54:41 <phila> ... SKOS was a major vocab of course. The WG was very prgamatic, looking at is the vocab useful and usable by diff applications.
12:55:48 <phila> ivan: I have the impression that for the work here, we can define something like we did for SKOS, but we can discuss and decide for oursleves in about a year's time
12:56:06 <simonstey> +q
12:56:15 <phila> ack Si
12:56:57 <phila> simonstey: I think it was Axel who commented on this with the intention to include not only the semantic descriptions, but also to define a conflict resolution.
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12:57:07 <ivan> q+
12:57:17 <phila> ... ODRL has three conflict overrides at the moment and we should define how those strategies are set.
12:57:42 <phila> ... This should be described in a more formal way than sometehing simple like every prohibition overrides a prohibition.
12:57:58 <ivan> q-
12:58:19 <phila> renato: We'll come to a point where we need to discuss that. One option might be to make the spec more clear.
12:58:25 <SabrinaKirrane> q+
12:58:31 <phila> ack SabrinaKirrane
12:59:06 <phila> SabrinaKirrane: Adding to what Simon said, I see that Big Data Europe is interested in our work. They'll want to do automatic machine raesoning over the expression
12:59:07 <ivan> q+
12:59:26 <ivan> q-
12:59:28 <phila> phila: Yes, thanks - BDE is a project that is important to me and is helping to fund my time here.
13:00:03 <phila> Topic: Logistics
13:00:22 <phila> renato: We'll need anotehr poll to firm up the day and time for this call.
13:00:38 <phila> ... So we'll put out another poll for people to fill in. Preferred days and times.
13:00:56 <phila> ... Shall we use GMT?
13:01:32 <phila> ivan: If we use GMT then we need to adjust twice a year when DST starts/ends. So I think it's better to fix it in one time zone.
13:02:08 <phila> ??: We need to be careful in March and October
13:02:21 <vrodriguez> Complementary to the "formal semantics", I would like to add that a testbed (or alternative mechanism) should exist to grant a POE implementation is compliant to others, at least to a minimal extent (but I think we have plenty of time to comment on this during other calls so I dont raise my hand)
13:02:21 <phila> ivan: so the Doodle should be dated.
13:02:27 <magyarblip> can we have another wg to get rid of dst?
13:03:20 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:03:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes.html phila
13:03:38 <phila> renato: There will be a new poll next week. Easter next week. Everyone OK to meet next Thursday?
13:03:44 <jo> +1 to Thursday noon GMT
13:03:58 <magyarblip> +1
13:04:15 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/
13:04:17 <phila> renato: Lastly, F2F meeting. WE want to meet at TPAC in September in Lisbon
13:04:30 <phila> ... We'll be meeting on the Thursday and Friday, 22-23 Septmeber
13:04:43 <phila> ... So please put that in your schedule, please reserve the date.
13:04:59 <phila> phila: TPAC is a lot of fun - you'll enjoy it (I promise)
13:05:32 <phila> renato: Thanks everyone
13:05:42 <phila> ... It's going to be a funn ride ahead
13:05:58 <phila> renato: See you next week and we'll get stuck into more of the meat
13:06:02 <james> Thanks.
13:06:12 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes.html phila
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13:06:51 <phila> present+ Godfrey_Rust
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13:07:12 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:07:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-poe-minutes.html phila
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