IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2016-03-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:58 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-irc
15:03:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:03:00 [Zakim]
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15:03:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:03:02 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:03:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:03:03 [trackbot]
Date: 17 March 2016
15:03:29 [Kim]
chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
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15:05:34 [Kim]
Agenda+ Review assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
15:05:35 [Kim]
Agenda + Revisions to 2.5.3 and related failures
15:05:37 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3
15:05:38 [Kim]
Agenda+ 2.5.4
15:05:40 [Kim]
Agenda+ Look at proposed 2.7 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Speech_Input_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.7%29
15:06:58 [Kim]
Regrets+ Jonathan, Alan
15:07:13 [Kim]
Present+ Kim
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15:11:53 [Kim]
Kathy: No meeting next week. Questions on assignments or things you now have ready – assuming people are wrapping things up and picking things up after CSUN
15:13:09 [Kim]
Kathy: if you have something most of the way there just mark as for review and we can work on those in these meetings
15:13:20 [Kathy]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3#Proposed_2.5.3
15:13:45 [Kim]
Zakim, take up next
15:13:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Review assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments" taken up [from Kim]
15:14:03 [Kim]
Zakim, take up next
15:14:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, Kim
15:14:15 [Kim]
Zakim, take up next
15:14:15 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, Kim
15:14:45 [Kim]
Zakim, take up next
15:14:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Revisions to 2.5.3 and related failures" taken up [from Kim]
15:15:16 [Kim]
David: separate gesture, or be reversible – I like it
15:15:32 [Kim]
Kathy: should we add anything more to the specific benefits – if you have anything, you can always go and add to the wiki
15:16:48 [Kim]
Detlev: are there cases where selecting by, say swiping left or right would already call some action – aware of one select and doubled have doesn't do anything but when you have user gestures like sliding a finger to move the slider and so on which are not acceptable and don't get through because the assistive technology are taking those gestures for something else – that's not exactly...
15:16:49 [Kim]
...what's meant here. Have we discussed cases where the mere selection would already trigger the action
15:16:58 [Kim]
David: email from Patrick about that
15:17:17 [David_]
As a general rule, once AT is running, no touch events (touchstart/touchmove/touchend) are fired directly (when the user is actually moving their finger over the touchscreen) - unless a user explicitly executed a passthrough gesture (if I recall, on iOS, double-tap and keep finger on screen, then execute the gesture). Most recent browsers/OSs with AT running will, however, fire "fake" touch...
15:17:18 [David_]
...events on activation (double-tap) - see http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tests/results/#mobile-tablet-touchscreen-assistive-technology-eventsIn short, if the custom scripting is reliant on handling touchstart/touchmove/touchend, it's usually not going to work (or not going to work as expected).
15:17:40 [Kim]
Detlev: specific pass-through gestures and if the screen reader is turned on those gestures wouldn't just work, would not be passed on to the user agent – that's my understanding
15:17:59 [Kim]
David: he says no events are fired unless it's a pass-through gesture, and you almost never see that done because it doesn't work very well
15:18:49 [Kim]
Detlev: so then does this text makes sense – could there be a situation where you have a selection gesture like horizontal scraping that triggers – I haven't seen that unless you turn on that single touch feature in android, but apart from that I can't think of any situation where that happens. Have we collected cases where that's actually happening?
15:19:12 [Kim]
Kathy: if you touch something it would get focus and then double tap actually activate there are scenarios whereby simply focusing on an element activates the element. I think that's what were trying to get at
15:19:32 [Kim]
Kathy: when the screen reader is on – doesn't happen when the screen reader is off because double tapping is the activation
15:19:39 [Kim]
Detlev: do we have actual cases
15:20:00 [Kim]
Kathy: that's the only one that I've come across where you single tap on it and it activates it I was wondering if there were other scenarios that people were seeing. This originally came out of the BBC mobile stuff
15:20:13 [Kim]
David: we may not need this
15:20:24 [Kim]
Detlev: could it be that this only happens when this feature in android is turned on
15:20:57 [Kim]
Kathy: no, I've had it happen iOS with voiceover. I know what you're talking about with a single tap with that setting and that is there. I've also seen the scenario where single tap activates there's no way to focus
15:21:17 [Kim]
David: how do you program that
15:21:43 [Kim]
Kathy: I don't know the backend I want to see if we have other examples. I couldn't come up with a scenario – within applications, yeah, but not within web content other than that one instance where I had that happening
15:21:55 [Kim]
David: could that situation have been a glitch or need a reboot?
15:21:56 [Kathy]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/focus/touch-events
15:22:01 [Kim]
Kathy: definitely not
15:23:21 [Kim]
Detlev: still inside the button release mouse outside the button so you prevent the event from happening so the same thing obviously can be without the screen reader on you just click, move the finger away and it won't happen. So I think that's a scenario that has nothing to do with assistive technology use
15:23:44 [Kim]
Kathy: we can remove one device assistive technology is being used, just when selection gesture is different from activation gesture easily reversible
15:24:21 [Kim]
Detlev: if you use your iPhone without voiceover just lift the finger and that separation between selecting and activating , but screen reader is select something first and you hurt spoken than double tap to select
15:25:06 [Kim]
Marc: default is touch up allows you to slide off, native apps. I kind of like wording having assistive technology turned on
15:25:46 [Kim]
Kathy: if somebody does something on touchstart – look at the failure, on touchstart rather than touchend
15:26:20 [Kim]
David: maybe we're better off just removing assistive technology for now and say later we will keep it in the back of our minds. We should have a boneyard – stick ideas that we might need again but we're not sure
15:26:50 [Kim]
Detlev: we have a single example that demonstrates that, screenreader, focus on something be it touch or swiping – if that exists then I think it's a good thing
15:28:51 [marcjohlic]
the selection gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
15:28:58 [marcjohlic]
ugh - bad pasted
15:29:06 [marcjohlic]
Interface elements that require a single tap or a long press as input will only trigger the corresponding event when the finger is lifted inside that element. The selection gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
15:29:12 [marcjohlic]
^ But it needs to be shorter
15:30:20 [Kim]
Jeanne: having to keep finger inside focus circle causes problems for people with mobility issues
15:30:44 [marcjohlic]
Propose: For interface elements that require a single tap or a long press as input the selection gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
15:31:03 [Kim]
Detlev: swipe somewhere else or tap somewhere else is different, but if people can't do that maybe we should just throw it out
15:31:47 [marcjohlic]
(but agreed, that may not work w/ what Jeanne is saying about mobility issues)
15:32:02 [Kim]
Detlev: separation of selection and activation this is one place where that can happen. This is nothing to do with the previous version because it's not really about where the finger is it's just desktop thing where you say leave a form element and then submit the form
15:32:36 [Kim]
Jeanne: web client dialer where if you tap the number it executed – didn't wait for you to lift your finger to execute the number dialing. I thought it was with the screen reader turned on
15:33:08 [Kim]
Detlev: and it wasn't the virtual keyboard he used?
15:33:15 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
15:33:30 [Kim]
Jeanne: custom dialing keyboard
15:35:26 [Kim]
Kathy: editing wiki
15:36:06 [marcjohlic]
Propose: The selection gesture for single tap or long press input must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
15:36:11 [Kim]
Detlev: are we mixing up BBC use of assistive technology and selection gesture separate from activation gesture – it doesn't really map easily on a use case where you don't have a screen reader turned on because here you don't separate
15:36:56 [Kim]
David: iPhone keypad – press on the to and move away from the 2 you already dialed it – it activates on touch. I haven't seen any complaints about it
15:37:11 [Kim]
Detlev: the dialing itself is a separate thing after you've put in the number
15:37:18 [Kim]
David: let's look at some other flagship activity on the iPhone
15:37:44 [Kim]
David: airplane mode wouldn't activate until I let go of my finger
15:38:06 [Kim]
David: so all these buttons and the settings work that way on the iPhone
15:38:40 [Kim]
Marc: I tried a few things and it looks like they're all using touchup events
15:39:00 [Kim]
David: I have my Google mail open, my taskbar in Safari and if you want to refresh – that little circle for refresh if you tap it quickly it will refresh, if you hold it down it's going to say do you want to go to the desktop view
15:39:28 [Kim]
David: two choices request desktop site or cancel
15:39:37 [Kim]
David: so there's a means to undo it
15:40:01 [Kim]
David: do we really want to create something that's going to fail the iPhone dialer. No, but we have revocable, so it's not failing it
15:41:57 [Kim]
David: photo button burst mode interesting behavior
15:42:21 [Kim]
Kathy: I don't think these are behaviors we want to see. If you have someone with a mobility impairment, problem
15:42:37 [Kim]
Detlev: presumably you can customize it's up to you to customize so it doesn't do unintended things
15:42:47 [Kim]
Kathy: we have reversible or confirmation so we can have that as part of it
15:42:52 [Kim]
David: add can be disabled
15:43:15 [Kim]
Detlev: burst mode – can delete all at once I don't know if that's revocable
15:43:25 [Kim]
David: deleting them all at once – not saving the one I want
15:44:55 [Kim]
Kathy: if we go down that route is there something we need to change.
15:45:08 [Kim]
Detlev: focus on either assistive technology or without
15:45:35 [Kim]
David: takes burst with voiceover on
15:46:39 [Kim]
David: if we can boneyard assistive technology for now
15:46:55 [Kim]
Detlev: keep it is something that needs backing by some examples, ask Chris to come forward with the dial path example
15:47:25 [Kim]
Kathy: let's move away from assistive technology and focus on the latter part of it
15:47:55 [Kim]
Detlev: I think that is valid and is just good practices to mobile and whether that can stay in or people would consider that general usability I'm not sure. BBC has different scope maybe
15:48:12 [Kim]
Kathy: is this very similar to oninput or onfocus?
15:48:49 [Kim]
Kathy: very rare, but example yesterday behind a firewall. Loss of focus
15:49:45 [Kim]
Kathy: how often this is actually gonna happen – it may not be. I think there is a challenge within single tabs and long presses. I think in the settings on the iPhone, and I haven't played around with this. I think you can actually change the time for long press in the settings
15:50:44 [Kim]
Generally looking for this
15:51:19 [Kim]
David: what about force touch
15:51:29 [marcjohlic]
"Touch Accommodations" under General > Accessibility
15:51:46 [Kim]
Detlev: 3-D touch same thing, may not be available to everybody with 3-D touch phone but you can get to everything by going into the application
15:52:02 [Kim]
Kathy: 3-D touch images, actions and actual menus
15:52:15 [Kim]
Detlev: presumably someone could write an app where people have things for 3-D touch that appear nowhere else, so that would be a failure
15:53:04 [Kim]
Detlev: failure: content elements or whatever where you provide through just 3-D touch or just long presses where you can have in any other way where it's not just a shortcut but something unique that other people can't get to who can't exert the force touch because the device doesn't support it or because their motor disability doesn't allow them to touch for that long a time
15:53:20 [Kim]
Kathy adding this to wiki
15:53:34 [Kim]
Detlev: also keyboard users wouldn't have a way of doing al ong touch
15:53:46 [Kim]
Kathy: is there a keyboard equivalent?
15:54:34 [Kim]
Marc: general accessibility, touch accommodation, tap assistance
15:55:14 [Kim]
Marc: location of touch
15:55:25 [Kim]
David: but they don't say anything about force touch
15:56:16 [Kathy]
2.5.3 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: The selection gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
15:56:38 [Kim]
Kathy: here's what we have right now
15:58:03 [Kim]
Kim: still doesn't say anything about settings
15:58:32 [Kim]
David: giving them a lot of options
15:58:52 [Kim]
Jeanne: I think we really confuse things when we get into the user agent side of it. On this particular example we need to stick with just what the author can write
15:59:46 [Kim]
David: mechanism is available – that can be author or operating system doesn't matter. If there's nothing in the settings and they need to be able to. Maybe we can actually leverage that – or a mechanism is available
15:59:59 [Kim]
Kathy: a mechanism is available to change the touch settings?
16:00:39 [Kim]
David: we don't want it to activate it on touch, so an activation is available to disable activation untouched – on down. We're not worried about up, just ondown
16:00:54 [Kim]
Kathy: you could have user settings and application that allows you to change the way it's doing that – that would be an okay alternative to this
16:01:01 [Kathy]
2.5.3 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: The selection gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, be easily reversible or there is a mechanism is available to change the way touch settings.
16:01:13 [Kim]
David: or a mechanism must be available to separate them – that's really what we want to say
16:01:35 [Kim]
David: it's really the down action that's causing the trouble so maybe we need to say that in the success criteria
16:01:56 [Kim]
Jeanne: or in the understanding
16:26:08 [Kim]
Present+ Mark, Detlev, David, Jeanne
16:26:13 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:26:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:29:23 [Kim]
Regrets+ Alistair, Henny, Chris
16:29:48 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
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