18:05:30 RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y 18:05:30 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-svg-a11y-irc 18:05:32 RRSAgent, make logs ab 18:05:32 Zakim has joined #svg-a11y 18:05:34 Zakim, this will be 18:05:34 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 18:05:35 Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 18:05:35 Date: 16 March 2016 18:05:52 scribe: AmeliaBR 18:05:57 chair: fesch 18:06:47 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Mar/0040.html 18:07:14 present+ AmeliaBR, fesch, shepazu, Brian 18:08:12 Topic: Welcome Brian from SSB Bart 18:10:56 [introductions from regular members] 18:11:09 Rich has joined #svg-a11y 18:11:26 q+ 18:11:42 present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger 18:12:59 LJWatson has joined #svg-a11y 18:13:11 present+ LJWatson 18:15:56 Present+ chaals 18:16:30 BM: I'm accessibility consultant at SSB Bart. Interest in SVG comes from data visualizations; previous work focused on e-learning accessibility. 18:18:21 ... I'm on the accessibility services team, largest team at SSB Bart. We do testing of products, platforms, etc. We're now seeing SVG all the time in content, particularly data visualizations & charts. 18:19:27 FE: In the TF, we're currently focusing on synching SVG with ARIA 1.1, so assistive tech & browsers can get basic support in, not great, but we can expand on it later to make rich graphics and charts. 18:19:38 MichaelC has joined #svg-a11y 18:19:45 ... right now we're still in the crawling stage, trying to get things universally supported. 18:20:38 TOPIC: open actions 18:20:39 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/open?sort=due 18:20:39 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/ 18:23:01 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2003 18:24:26 q+ 18:24:40 ack sh 18:24:44 ack me 18:25:40 q+ 18:26:03 ABR: I'm making progress, but not closed yet. Should be able to do the clarifications to SVG 2 re empty title/desc (ACTION-2015) 18:26:44 [I closed action-1602 with some pointers collected on the wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility#Sites_with_use_case_stuff but I'd welcome more, especially from people who are generating them so we can work directly together] 18:26:53 RS: We've had progress on Action-2003, I've got actions to clean up main ARIA spec. We know expected behavior, need it to be clear. 18:27:18 Topic: ARIA 1.1 Testing 18:27:19 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables 18:28:24 FE: At that link is the list of test assertions, with auto-generated tables of what that means for each AAPI. Some redundancy. I'd like people to review & see if there are systematic errors. 18:28:58 ... e.g., for relationships, I just say "not empty" because I don't know if API should report an ID, or how that is presented. 18:29:43 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Mar/0043.html 18:30:00 ... According to name calculation spec, ATK should use labelledby relationship, but according to Joanie this only applies to widgets with labels (see linked email) 18:30:09 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Mar/0041.html 18:30:53 FE: So they need to either split it out in the spec or change their behavior. 18:32:36 ABR: I was somewhat confused by the "not empty" wasn't sure what it meant, so if we can clarify that it would help. Distinguish it from string values elsewhere in the table. 18:33:10 FE: We could change that. All caps or angle brackets. Any other suggestions for clarifications welcome. 18:33:40 FE: I still need to convert these wiki tables into JSON for the actual files for the test harness. 18:34:31 Topic: Accessible Authoring Practices Guide 18:34:34 https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/graphics-practices 18:35:07 FE: I copied the ARIA practices guide to use as a template. I edited a little bit, but haven't changed much yet. 18:35:35 q+ 18:36:01 q- 18:36:13 FE: If Doug or Chaals want to start hacking on this & adding content that would be good. But we also need to decide on overall organization. 18:36:39 CMN: I'm not too keen on defining this by ARIA. Most of what I want to focus on isn't directly related to ARIA. 18:36:53 FE: Do we want to call it something else? 18:37:16 CMN: General SVG Authoring Guidance 18:38:14 q+ 18:38:36 ack me 18:38:44 ABR: I agree. I have this on the SVG WG agenda, to ask if they mind us leading a general SVG Authoring Practices Guide. 18:38:59 RS: But who's contributing other SVG guidance? 18:39:45 ABR: I think most of the guidance will be accessibility-related. Just not all ARIA-related. E.g. keyboard, color contrast, good structure, etc. 18:40:39 q? 18:40:45 ack shep 18:40:45 ack sh 18:41:05 DS: Agree that focusing on SVG general best practices is best. Many of these features, such as tooltips & good document structure, have benefits beyond accessibility. Need to focus broadly. 18:41:51 FE: I'd copied the existing spec just because it was easier to get started. For admin it may also be easier to work within the ARIA repo. 18:42:22 q+ 18:42:33 FE: Also need to design form. The ARIA guide works primarily off of examples and common design patterns. 18:43:20 ... In the Aria editors, we talked about SVG in other specs & Cynthia Shelley asked "where is the guidance" to give spec editors. 18:44:00 LW: There was something that Chaals had already started putting together on the SVG Accessibility community wiki. 18:44:14 FE: But that wasn't formatted up as a proper W3C spec. 18:44:16 ACTION: chaals to make the scrapbook for authoring practices look like a W3C editors' draft. 18:44:16 Created ACTION-2018 - Make the scrapbook for authoring practices look like a w3c editors' draft. [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2016-03-23]. 18:44:33 LW: But that's the content, so we want to work from that and not re-start completely. 18:44:52 ack me 18:45:19 CMN: We do need to decide which document we should be collecting content in. 18:46:29 DS: It should be something publicly editable so we can encourage contributions. 18:46:33 -> https://github.com/SVG-access-W3CG/new-note-draft scratch space to turn into a draft 18:47:03 CMN: This is the GitHub repo we're working on. We can continue with it for now, and integrate it into a document template later. 18:48:11 DS: Could we maybe fork it into an official W3C repo, so that the live view can show up in a w3c.github.io page 18:48:38 LW: We don't have a designated repo for this task force yet. 18:49:29 DS: But we could do that. 18:50:29 FE: OK, I can drop the rough template I put together. But how are we going to integrate the standard features into the other one. 18:50:53 CMN: Copy over any substantive content that is relevant. For formatting and boilerplate text, it's easy to do later. 18:51:05 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Mar/0041.html 18:51:35 Topic: ATK mappings for name calculations 18:52:12 FE: See Joanie's email. I think our only interest is to stay in sync with ARIA Core as far as how the names are computed. 18:52:41 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Mar/0043.html 18:53:09 And what I am tossing out there is that **for the purpose of 18:53:10 CR testing**, it might be worth doing so (slightly). In particular, 18:53:12 testing for the computed string (like you do for ATK and IA2). The 18:53:13 q+ 18:53:13 computed string for name and the computed string for description should 18:53:15 be as per your expectations. If they are not, that means there is a bug 18:53:16 in my implementation. 18:53:28 ABR: It is worth considering. Labelled by relationships in diagrams can be nearly as important as in form widgets. 18:54:29 s/formatting and boilerplate text/formatting, making it a W3C repo and adding useful metadata like intro and status, 18:54:50 s/it's easy to do later/I'll do that in the next few days/ 18:55:30 FE: [Reading from Joanie's email] For the purposes of CR testing, it may be worth focusing on computed strings for testing rather than on relationships 18:55:51 q? 18:56:00 q+ 18:56:13 ... So she would like to give us an example as to when it is necessary to have the relationship as well as the computed name. 18:56:44 ack chaals 18:57:04 No. I am proposing that your group EITHER provide me with a real-worlduse case in which exposure via AXTitleUIElement **in addition to theexisting computed string which is already in place as per your spec** isnecessary, OR discuss if it is possible to do your CR testing based onthe computed string. 18:58:20 CMN: If there are no practical requirements for the one main client (Voiceover on Mac), we may want to present it as a suggested implementation 18:59:06 RS: For relationships, it is more important for descriptions than for labels, so that you can navigate to full-paragraph descriptions. Also for flow-to and other relationships. 18:59:50 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Mar/ 19:00:06 FE: They currently use it for widgets, but nothing else. 19:00:22 q? 19:00:48 ABR: My reverse question is: what functionality is derived from this relationship in form widgets? Is that functionality something that would be useful for labelled diagrams. 19:01:08 ... I may need to ask Joanie that by email. 19:01:23 But from the user agent and AT standpoint: If the name is correctly 19:01:25 exposed via the computed name string, and if exposure as per the spec 19:01:26 will not have any impact because the AT doesn't need that exposure, why 19:01:28 should the user agent do unneeded extra work? "Because the spec says 19:01:29 so," does not strike me as a particularly compelling reason. 19:02:16 FE: This is from the Core AAM 19:03:33 ABR: This needs to be decided for the Core spec, but we want to make sure the graphics case (labelled diagrams) is clearly considered. 19:05:01 ... We can discuss more via email, but it needs to be taken up at an AAPI meeting to change the Core spec. Fred's tests just reflect that. 19:05:53 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Mar/0041.html 19:07:19 NO meeting next week 19:08:01 DS: Let's take up this issue at next meeting in two weeks, to decide whether we want SVG-specific requirements for labelling relationships. 19:08:23 rrsagent, make log public 19:08:31 rrsagent, make minutes 19:08:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html AmeliaBR 19:08:32 LJWatson has left #svg-a11y 19:09:23 trackbot, end telcon 19:09:23 Zakim, list attendees 19:09:23 As of this point the attendees have been AmeliaBR, fesch, shepazu, Brian, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, LJWatson, chaals 19:09:31 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:09:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html trackbot 19:09:32 RRSAgent, bye 19:09:32 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-svg-a11y-actions.rdf : 19:09:32 ACTION: chaals to make the scrapbook for authoring practices look like a W3C editors' draft. [1] 19:09:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-svg-a11y-irc#T18-44-16