13:55:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:55:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-irc
13:55:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:55:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:55:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:55:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:55:51 <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2016
13:56:20 <allanj> chair: JimA and AWK
13:56:32 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
13:56:47 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
13:57:09 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
13:57:58 <allanj> agenda?
13:58:08 <allanj> clear agenda
13:58:16 <allanj> Agenda+ CSUN Plan - who, what sessions, gathering?
13:58:17 <allanj> ​Agenda+ Legibility and Readability and ???
13:58:31 <allanj> agenda?
13:58:43 <allanj> agenda+ legibility
13:59:06 <allanj> v
13:59:40 <allanj> Agenda+ lvtf-ACTION-37: Avila to create user need for contrast differences
13:59:59 <allanj> Agenda+ review Sensory Characteristics
14:00:11 <allanj> Agenda+ Information from Images - User Need?
14:00:22 <allanj> Agenda+ lvtf-ACTION-38: Review 3.1 contrast/color user needs
14:18:18 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
14:19:04 <Wayne> shawn? are you listening
14:20:22 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
14:21:28 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:21:28 <Zakim> Present: shawn, jeanne, Jim, AWK, Laura, wayne
14:21:32 <shawn> present:
14:21:34 <shawn> present+
14:21:36 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:21:36 <Zakim> Present: shawn
14:25:27 <allanj> present+
14:28:57 <shawn> present+ Wayne
14:29:08 <shawn> present+ JohnRochford
14:29:10 <allanj> present+ JimA
14:30:11 <JohnRochford> present+
14:30:28 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:30:28 <Zakim> Present: shawn, allanj, Wayne, JohnRochford, JimA
14:30:50 <shawn> Present: Shawn, JimA, Wayne, JohnRochford, Laura
14:31:30 <Erich> Erich has joined #lvtf
14:35:20 <allanj> agenda?
14:35:46 <allanj> Open item 1
14:35:53 <allanj> topic: CSUN
14:36:31 <shawn> Shawn going to CSUN
14:36:37 <allanj> jim going
14:36:43 <shawn> Wayne going
14:36:53 <shawn> not John, Laura, Erich
14:37:22 <shawn> Low Vision: Beyond the Buzz Words
14:37:22 <shawn> <http://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/2016/sessions/index.php/public/presentations/view/337>
14:37:22 <shawn> A panel comprised of individuals with low vision will discuss the meaning,
14:37:23 <shawn> techniques/devices, and best practices for optimizing the “low vision” web
14:37:23 <shawn> experience.
14:37:57 <JohnRochford> Jim: Found 1 low-vision presentation at CSUN 2016
14:38:13 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #lvtf
14:38:35 <shawn> q+ to suggest contacting panelists and lett ing them know about our publication & work
14:39:01 <AWK> AWK has joined #lvtf
14:39:12 <shawn> ack me
14:39:12 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest contacting panelists and lett ing them know about our publication & work
14:39:32 <AWK> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:39:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-minutes.html AWK
14:39:50 <shawn> Presenters
14:39:50 <shawn> Joel Isaac
14:39:50 <shawn> Wayne Heidel
14:39:51 <shawn> Olaya Landa-Vialard
14:39:51 <shawn> Scott McCormack
14:40:02 <JohnRochford> Shawn: Contact CSUN panelists and let them knw about our work?
14:41:45 <shawn> Date & Time
14:41:45 <shawn> Friday, March 25, 2016 - 1:20 PM PST
14:41:45 <shawn> Location
14:41:46 <shawn> Cortez Hill AB, 3rd Floor, Seaport Tower
14:41:49 <AWK> http://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/2016/sessions/index.php/public/presentations/view/337
14:42:39 <allanj> zakim, next item
14:42:39 <Zakim> agendum 2. "legibility" taken up [from allanj]
14:42:40 <JohnRochford> Wayne admits to not being cool.
14:42:50 <allanj> close item 1
14:43:01 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/LVTF_Open_Issues#Legibility_and_Readability_and_.3F.3F.3F
14:43:25 <AWK> I sent a note to Jon A about the session
14:43:41 <allanj> topic: Legibility and Readability
14:44:10 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Asked Gordon about about legibility levels.
14:45:27 <shawn> [ Shawn put in a late comment this morning: "Keeping in mind the audience and purpose of the document, I think we want to keep it a jargon-less as possible. Maybe we don't even try to define terms -- we just explain the concepts?"]
14:45:32 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Proposed 3 levels to Gordon, which he liked.
14:46:17 <JohnRochford> Wayne: font size, line spacing, etc., Gordon includes in legibility
14:46:44 <shawn> "things that are legible that you really can't read"
14:47:10 <JohnRochford> Wayne: There are things that are legible that people can't read.
14:47:43 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Acuity limit = legible font that can be read
14:49:06 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Critical Print Size is second level, and is dependent upon context, such as font and font size
14:49:47 <allanj> acuity limit = from eye exam under best conditions, limit of persons acuity
14:50:34 <JohnRochford> Wayne: These levels exist for everybody
14:50:59 <shawn> "see and recognize letters but functinoally not read too well"
14:51:46 <jeanne> present+ jeanne
14:51:54 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:51:54 <Zakim> Present: Shawn, JimA, Wayne, JohnRochford, Laura, jeanne
14:52:07 <shawn> present+ AndrewK
14:53:03 <Erich> present+ Erich
14:53:41 <allanj> update paragraph in Requirements document: http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#functional-vision
14:54:15 <JohnRochford> Shawn: we should define terms "legibility" and "readability"
14:54:16 <shawn> in doc: http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#functional-vision
14:54:39 <AWK> zakim, agenda?
14:54:39 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:54:40 <Zakim> 2. legibility [from allanj]
14:54:40 <Zakim> 3. lvtf-ACTION-37: Avila to create user need for contrast differences [from allanj]
14:54:40 <Zakim> 4. review Sensory Characteristics [from allanj]
14:54:40 <Zakim> 5. Information from Images - User Need? [from allanj]
14:54:40 <Zakim> 6. lvtf-ACTION-38: Review 3.1 contrast/color user needs [from allanj]
14:55:18 <shawn> current draft paragraph: [Editors' Note: The Task Force plans to change the content of this paragraph.] Tasks may also impact a person’s functional vision. For example, a person may be able to distinguish letters at a given point size on a vision test where they are reading only one letter at a time, but they cannot actually read blocks of text at that same point size. This is the difference
14:55:18 <shawn> between legibility and readability. Legibility is related to perceiving text by distinguishing letters. Readability is related to reading and comprehending textual information. Thus text could be somewhat legible to a person, yet not functionally readable—with effort that user could distinguish one letter from another, but could not effectively read sentences.
14:56:45 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn and Wayne add to https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/References#Functional_Vision legibility references
14:56:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - And wayne add to https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/references#functional_vision legibility references [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-03-23].
14:56:48 <JohnRochford> Jim: As experts on how to make things work on the web, we have the right to use operationalized terms
14:57:11 <shawn> s/ Jim: As experts on how to make things work on the web,/ Wayne: As experts on how to make things work on the web,/
14:57:32 <JohnRochford> Jim: as well as defining success criteria
14:57:49 <shawn> s/ Jim: as well as defining success criteria/ Wayne: as well as defining success criteria
14:58:21 <JohnRochford> Shawn, am I confusing Wayne with Jim?
14:59:14 <JohnRochford> I apologize
14:59:32 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn and Wayne update legibility readability section in https://rawgit.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/FPWD/requirements.html#functional-vision
14:59:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - And wayne update legibility readability section in https://rawgit.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/fpwd/requirements.html#functional-vision [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-03-23].
14:59:41 <allanj> close item
14:59:58 <allanj> zakim, next item
14:59:58 <Zakim> agendum 3. "lvtf-ACTION-37: Avila to create user need for contrast differences" taken up [from allanj]
15:00:07 <allanj> close item 2
15:00:42 <allanj> topic lvtf-Action-37 contrast differences
15:00:50 <allanj> topic: lvtf-Action-37 contrast differences
15:01:11 <shawn> in tracker: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/actions/37
15:01:26 <shawn> last comment: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Mar/0052.html
15:01:35 <AWK> agenda+ TPAC 2016 in September https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/WCAGTPAC2016/
15:02:25 <JohnRochford> Shawn: User need that started the conversation was the state of a button
15:03:45 <JohnRochford> Is luminosity a sufficient affordance - does it fall under "do not use color alone"?
15:03:56 <allanj> http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#not-relying-on-color
15:04:02 <JohnRochford> That was from Shawn
15:05:00 <JohnRochford> Shawn: Add an example of color indicating a state
15:06:39 <shawn> proposal: add as an example under 3.1.3 Not Relying on Color "User Need - Color: Color is not the only visual means of conveying information, indicating an action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual element."
15:06:56 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Yes, contrast is a function of color, but in common usage, people don't think of contrast as being a color issue
15:08:18 <allanj> original 3.1.3 text:  User Need - Color: Color is not the only visual means of conveying information, indicating an action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual element.
15:09:00 <JohnRochford> Shawn: Let's put the example in place and see if it works.
15:09:16 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Agrees
15:10:06 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn write out example for 3.1.3 that covers contrast issue
15:10:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Write out example for 3.1.3 that covers contrast issue [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-03-23].
15:10:34 <allanj> zakim, next item
15:10:34 <Zakim> agendum 4. "review Sensory Characteristics" taken up [from allanj]
15:10:54 <allanj> close item 3
15:11:23 <JohnRochford> AWK: In communication with Jon A about this issue
15:11:37 <allanj> Topic: Sensory Characteristics
15:11:43 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/LVTF_Open_Issues#Sensory_Characteristics
15:11:54 <shawn> WCAG 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics: Instructions provided for understanding and operating content do not rely solely on sensory characteristics of components such as shape, size, visual location, orientation..."
15:11:54 <shawn> What are relevant issues particularly for low vision? Do we want to address this with a user need? If so, ideas for wording?
15:12:52 <JohnRochford> Shawn: WCAG 1.3.3 jumped out at me
15:13:19 <JohnRochford> Shawn: Want to run it by people
15:15:11 <JohnRochford> Jim: Anybody object to closing this?
15:15:47 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:15:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
15:15:48 <allanj> zakim, next item
15:15:48 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Information from Images - User Need?" taken up [from allanj]
15:16:13 <allanj> topic: Information from Images - User ned
15:16:22 <allanj> s/ned/need
15:18:17 <allanj> user need - low vision user need access to alt text at times
15:18:54 <JohnRochford> Wayne: This relates to issue of focus on screen-readers
15:19:26 <allanj> laura: users can perceive important information from images (alt text, modifying image, etc.)
15:19:42 <JohnRochford> Laura: There are lot of low-vision people who don't (? - Laura, please define)
15:21:21 <JohnRochford> Jim: What do we want to do: craft a user need?
15:22:44 <JohnRochford> Shawn: Are we going to say users can get the info from an image?
15:22:59 <JohnRochford> Wayne: No, that's perceiving.
15:23:04 <JohnRochford> Laura: Agrees
15:23:50 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn draft images user need under 3.3 Perceiving for TF discussion
15:23:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Draft images user need under 3.3 perceiving for tf discussion [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-03-23].
15:24:26 <allanj> zakim, next item
15:24:26 <Zakim> agendum 6. "lvtf-ACTION-38: Review 3.1 contrast/color user needs" taken up [from allanj]
15:24:42 <allanj> close item 5
15:25:19 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Will carefully go through user needs next week
15:25:48 <shawn> here are the user stories - use cases https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/User_stories_-_use_cases  there are are few open issues, which we have listed in https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/LVTF_Open_Issues
15:26:00 <allanj> topic: lvtf-Action-38 - contrast/color user needs
15:27:51 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Do we have any recommendations to WCAG for button state issue?
15:29:10 <JohnRochford> Jeane: I think somebody from the group should comment on it.
15:29:47 <JohnRochford> AWK: I have been weighing in about this issue to the conversation going on
15:30:19 <JohnRochford> AWK: Most of debate was about on-focus and on-hover
15:30:38 <JohnRochford> Gotta go folks
15:31:05 <allanj> scribe: jimA
15:34:15 <shawn> s/Gotta go folks/ /
15:34:46 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:34:57 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
15:34:57 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:34:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, JimA, Wayne, JohnRochford, Laura, jeanne, AndrewK, Erich
15:35:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:35:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
15:35:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:35:06 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-actions.rdf :
15:35:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn and Wayne add to https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/References#Functional_Vision legibility references [1]
15:35:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-irc#T14-56-45
15:35:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn and Wayne update legibility readability section in https://rawgit.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/FPWD/requirements.html#functional-vision [2]
15:35:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-irc#T14-59-32
15:35:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn write out example for 3.1.3 that covers contrast issue [3]
15:35:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-irc#T15-10-06
15:35:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn draft images user need under 3.3 Perceiving for TF discussion [4]
15:35:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-lvtf-irc#T15-23-50