15:06:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
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15:06:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:06:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
15:06:25 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:06:26 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
15:06:26 <trackbot> Date: 15 March 2016
15:07:10 <hsolbrig> hsolbrig has joined #hcls
15:07:32 <ericP> http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf#rdf-data-for-codeable-concept-instance
15:07:38 <dbooth> Topic: Recording RDF syntax decisions
15:08:44 <Tony> Tony has joined #HCLS
15:08:58 <dbooth> eric: suggest recording RDF syntax decisions using ShEx
15:09:00 <dbooth> http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf#rdf-data-for-codeable-concept-instance
15:09:02 <dbooth> like that
15:10:05 <dbooth> that's an example of how it would be written
15:10:30 <dbooth> eric: advantages: it is testable and specifies general case, not just one example
15:10:57 <dbooth> tony: We should have an example also, not only shex
15:11:17 <dbooth> dbooth: agreed
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15:15:26 <dbooth> (eric walks us through the example at http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf#rdf-data-for-codeable-concept-instance )
15:22:04 <ericP>   <codingShape> {
15:22:04 <ericP>     a [fhir:CodingBase]?,
15:22:04 <ericP>     fhir:CodingBase.code @<extensibleLiteral>?,
15:22:04 <ericP>     fhir:CodingBase.system @<extensibleLiteral>?,
15:22:04 <ericP>     fhir:CodingBase.display @<extensibleLiteral>?
15:22:06 <ericP>   }
15:22:09 <ericP>   <extensibleLiteral> { fhir:value LITERAL }
15:24:13 <dbooth> harold: fhir:codeBase should be fhir:code
15:25:48 <dbooth> harold: if extensibleLiteral is extended, how do I say what type it is?
15:26:12 <dbooth> eric: We don't do a type code for the extension
15:26:25 <ericP> fhir:CodingBase.code [ my:someExtension [ fhir:value "another turtle" ] ; fhir:value "90614001" ] ;
15:26:25 <dbooth> dbooth: it will only have the extension URI?
15:26:27 <dbooth> eric: yes
15:28:02 <dbooth> dbooth: my:someExtension needs to have some marking from the standard FHIR namespace to be recognizable for round tripping
15:28:30 <dbooth> harold: what came of version and userSelected attributes?
15:28:34 <dbooth> eric: Haven't looked at them.
15:29:22 <dbooth> harold: They're mandating a version when using SNOMED-CT
15:29:51 <dbooth> eric: people using SNOMED are expected to keep track of versinos
15:30:19 <dbooth> harold: no, it says "note that the following systems SHOULD have the version specified . . . "
15:31:26 <dbooth> ... And userSelected has an intent that says it was the one that the user actually put in.
15:32:00 <dbooth> ... "if a userSelected exists, it is *the* code preferred" which implies that cardinality is max 1
15:33:56 <dbooth> http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf#rdf-data-for-codeable-concept-instance
15:34:46 <dbooth> eric: Should we use a generic extensibleLiteral, or specific kinds, or should it be specifically typed?
15:35:04 <dbooth> ... My preferences is generic because it's simpler, and we can infer their type from context.
15:39:20 <dbooth> dbooth: so the choice is in the ShEx schema for something like fhir:CodingBase.code, should it have a specific name for each type or be generic?
15:39:24 <dbooth> example:
15:39:24 <dbooth>   <codingShape> {
15:39:24 <dbooth>     a [fhir:CodingBase]?,
15:39:24 <dbooth>     fhir:CodingBase.code @<codingBaseCodeExtensibleLiteral>?,
15:39:24 <dbooth>     fhir:CodingBase.system @<codingBaseSystemExtensibleLiteral>?,
15:39:25 <dbooth>     fhir:CodingBase.display @<codingBaseDisplayExtensibleLiteral>?
15:39:26 <dbooth>   }
15:42:21 <dbooth> harold: We would have to do that for every variable in the system!
15:43:39 <Sajjad> Generic Approach:    <codingShape> {     a [fhir:CodingBase]?,     fhir:CodingBase.code @<extensibleLiteral>?,     fhir:CodingBase.system @<extensibleLiteral>?,     fhir:CodingBase.display @<extensibleLiteral>?   }
15:44:44 <dbooth> RESOLVED: We will use the generic extensibleLiteral construct in ShEx unless/until we discover it does not work
15:46:46 <dbooth> RESOLVED: We will write our RDF syntax decisions both as examples and in ShEx
15:47:49 <dbooth> Topic: How should the root node be designated in RDF?
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15:48:38 <dbooth> Related to https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/18
15:49:39 <dbooth> https://hl7-fhir.github.io/allergyintolerance-example.ttl.html
15:51:40 <dbooth> tony: In that example, it has a fhir:Resource.id (with a value of "example") then the RDF resource root node needs to be a URI
15:52:39 <dbooth> tony: I tried that example in protege and it loads fine, but you cannot reference it from elsewhere.
15:54:53 <dbooth> ... There are two options: 1. Instead of _:example you make it a URI; or 2. a prefixed URI .
15:55:34 <dbooth> eric: When this is in use, a system could easily serve things that say <> (relative URI), so it would be easy to not have to figure out a full URI for that document.
15:56:45 <dbooth> ... RDF only has blank nodes or absolute URIs.  But serializations can have relative URIs, in which case the base URI does not need to be included in the document because the Turtle parser will fill it in.
15:57:15 <dbooth> ... In common usage, most FHIR engines won't need any base URI embedded.
16:01:40 <dbooth> tony: Relative URI would mean that the identity of the resource changes from place to place.
16:01:46 <dbooth> harold: agree
16:02:07 <dbooth> dbooth: Concerned about round tripping.  Grahame very clearly said that the resource will not always have an identity: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-semweb-lifesci/2016Mar/0010.html
16:05:26 <dbooth> tony: if the resource root is a blank node then you cannot have closure when graphs are loaded into protege
16:05:40 <dbooth> eric: i think you mean unification
16:05:48 <dbooth> tony: I mean the loading logic.
16:07:26 <Sajjad> The blank node identifiers are only limited in scope to a serialization of a particular RDF graph. So, as long as the whole RDF serialization is 'one' RDF graph, we should be ok with a blank-node
16:07:29 <dbooth> eric: If you have an identifier in two graphs, and they both talk about a patient . . . if you have an identifier then you want to name the patient by that ID, and the ID is repeated: the resource root and the ID property of that resource root.
16:07:58 <dbooth> ... Or we could reference the root node indirectly through its ID property.
16:09:14 <dbooth> tony: but each resource is a different graph
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16:12:06 <dbooth> eric: We need an absolute identifier somewhere -- not necessarily the resource root, but it requires chained properties.
16:12:29 <Sajjad> two blank-nodes in two different RDF grahs are actually two different entities (even though both have same properties and objects). One can still work around it, by establisting a owl:sameAs between the two blank-nodes
16:16:40 <dbooth> tony: In some cases FHIR defines a URI for the resource root node, and in other cases it is anonymous -- a blank node.
16:19:22 <dbooth> ... In the case where FHIR defines a URI for the resource, the question is, what should the RDF rresource root node be called?
16:20:40 <dbooth> https://hl7-fhir.github.io/allergyintolerance-example.ttl.html
16:21:20 <dbooth> dbooth: is that the one that you loaded into protege?
16:22:01 <dbooth> ... Did it start with '_:example a fhir:AllergyIntolerance;' ?   Tony: yes.
16:22:45 <dbooth> tony: It loaded properly, but i could not reference it from another graph because it is a blank node.
16:23:36 <dbooth> tony: If it has a fhir:Resource.id then it should instead be a URI, so that it can be referenced from elsewhere
16:24:25 <dbooth> dbooth: when trying to reference it from elsewhere, what are you trying to do?
16:24:45 <dbooth> tony: I want to make a FHIR reference to it.
16:25:44 <dbooth> dbooth: so you want to do something like this?  fhir:Reference.reference [ fhir:value "Practitioner/example" ]
16:26:33 <dbooth> tony: actually it's a fhir:Reference.link
16:28:38 <dbooth> https://hl7-fhir.github.io/patient-example-a.ttl.html
16:29:12 <Sajjad> Just FYI: one can use e:tuple builtin, using the EYE engine, to obtain a so called 'named entity' as a unique skolem-funtion drives the blank-node
16:29:19 <Sajjad> e:tuple a rdf:Property, e:Builtin; 	rdfs:comment "built-in skolem function generator typically used with a subject that will get bound to a unique blank node which is a function of the object tuple"; 	rdfs:domain rdfs:Resource; 	rdfs:range rdf:List.
16:30:52 <dbooth> sajjad: Two blank nodes in different graphs are different, but you can reference between them if you use skolem URIs
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16:36:23 <dbooth> dbooth: We need a concise example showing the exact problem.
16:36:33 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
16:39:00 <dbooth> github: http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/
16:39:36 <dbooth> https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf
16:39:59 <dbooth> https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/tree/gh-pages/spec
16:42:12 <dbooth> http://w3c.github.io/hcls-fhir-rdf/spec/rdf.html
16:45:56 <dbooth> chair: David Booth
16:46:03 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
16:50:30 <dbooth> Present: David Booth, EricP, Rob Hausam, Sajjad Hussain, Thomas Lukasik, Harold Solbrig, Tony Mallia
16:50:34 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:50:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/03/15-hcls-minutes.html dbooth