00:51:37 RRSAgent has joined #ceo-ld 00:51:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-irc 00:51:42 Zakim has joined #ceo-ld 00:51:51 D_McKenzie has joined #ceo-ld 00:52:24 jtandy_ has joined #ceo-ld 00:52:42 Present+ jtandy 00:52:46 present+ 00:52:56 present+ dmckenzie 00:54:36 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 00:56:50 chunming has joined #ceo-ld 00:57:21 Tianyu_Wo has joined #ceo-ld 00:57:42 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 00:59:02 Jitao has joined #ceo-ld 00:59:50 billroberts has joined #ceo-ld 01:00:23 Xuezhi has joined #ceo-ld 01:00:38 present+billroberts 01:00:47 rrsagent, make logs public 01:01:43 Present+ MaikReichert 01:01:54 Present+ BillRoberts 01:01:56 present+ Geoffrey 01:02:09 Present+ GeofferyBoulton 01:04:19 present+ phil, Jeremy, Denise, Maik, Bill, Guoqing, Jitao, Jibo, Jianhui, Tianyu, Xueyuan, Chunming, Jinghua_Zhao, Qun_Zhang, Xianqian_Chai, Xiaohai_Li, Jinwei_Wang 01:05:21 scribe: chunming 01:06:13 [phila give an overview of CEO-LD and agenda] 01:06:45 Geoffrey Boulton, CODATA and Edinburgh University 01:07:00 Jianhui Li, CNIC, CAS , CODATA China 01:07:03 Xuezhi Wang, CNIC, CAS 01:07:46 Xianqian Chai, China Mobile (28th morning) 01:07:57 Jinwei Wang, China Mobile 01:08:01 Xiaohai Li, China Mobile (28th morning) 01:08:21 Bill Roberts, SWIRRL 01:08:28 Maik Riechert, Reading University/MELODIES project 01:08:59 Chongping Wang, AC Rep of China Mobile, W3C Members 01:09:19 Qinghua Zhao, from CESI. Big data national standardization 01:09:32 Qun Zhang, CESI, W3C Member 01:09:40 Jitao Yang, Beijing Language and Culture University/RADI 01:09:50 Guoqing Li, Institute of Remote Sensing and Digital Earth, CAS 01:10:20 ... remote sensing scenario, discuss what is coverage, and apps from China 01:10:30 Jeremy Tandy, UK Met office 01:10:45 ... W3C/OGC WG on geospatial data on the web 01:11:04 ... coverage is one of type of data, that we can't use well on the web 01:11:11 Denise Elizabeth McKenzie, OGC 01:11:33 ... the joint wg on geospatial data on the web 01:11:57 ... coverage data is piece of data collected golbally 01:12:05 Tianyu Wo, Beihang University/W3C 01:12:28 ... share some report of usecase on UCar services, a internet car rental data sharing 01:12:51 Phil: W3C Data Activity 01:14:29 [feel free to say in both english/chinese, ask for slow down if needed] 01:14:50 [new coming: Yingying Chen from W3C/China] 01:15:20 [new coming: Xueyuan Jia from W3C/China] 01:15:45 phila: introduction to spatial data on the web wg 01:16:05 ... coverage in linked data 01:16:53 ... CEO-LD project: we believe that it will soon be a big project 01:16:57 ... do some significant development work 01:17:18 ... setting the framework, do development, testing, ... 01:17:43 ... in the moring : collecting information 01:17:55 ... presentations from chinese colleges 01:18:18 phila: talk about use cases 01:18:31 W3C OGC Spatial Dat aon the Web Use Cases & Requirements 01:19:14 http://www.chinaw3c.org/archives/1208/ 01:19:26 https://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-sdw-ucr-20151217/ 01:20:09 phila: requirements on coverage data 01:20:42 xueyuan has joined #ceo-ld 01:21:01 ... section 4.4, https://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-sdw-ucr-20151217/ 01:21:59 ... an usecase 01:23:01 scribe: phila 01:23:11 chunming: Offers a summary in Chinese 01:25:58 Guoching: I want to introduce my project. It's a very technical one in China, it's the biggest approach here to use the next gen in sensing applications 01:26:10 ... Lots of things, lots of data challenges 01:26:41 ... Lots of data questions are not resolved. I can use just one slice in my report to communiate our topic with coverages 01:27:00 ... Coverages is not a topic in our peoject at the moment 01:27:15 S/communicate/communicate/ 01:27:26 ... China remote Sensing Network (CRSNet) is a project supported throughout 2011-2016 01:27:57 ... Two stages - break down what we have and then integrate 01:28:09 ... How to use sensors together to resolve the problems at global scale 01:28:36 ... Forst level is at cyclic level, second is at data level, connecting different data centres 01:28:55 ... Third level is the workflow 01:29:29 ... Quantitative common products and thematic products 01:29:51 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 01:30:03 ... Want to transfer the service of remote sesing data to service of remote sensing product 01:30:46 ... All observation is based on the common product 01:31:05 ... Integrating satellute, airt and ground sensors 01:31:58 ... More than 40 types of multi scale products (now 58) 01:32:28 ... Things loike mineral paramaters, radiation budgets, vegtation structure, global ice change 01:32:59 ... product can be generated at different geo and temporal scales 01:33:03 S/like/like/ 01:33:16 ... 1km layer, 100m layers and 10 m layers 01:33:23 S/loike/like/ 01:33:27 ... Can match each otehr automatically 01:33:40 s/otehr/other 01:33:46 ... For the end product, the semantic layer... different land use types 01:33:50 s/otehr/other/ 01:34:56 ... Talks through flow diagram of the system 01:35:50 ... Needs online processing 01:35:56 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 01:36:10 ... Can;t do online processing with muti-dimensions 01:36:55 ... Geospatial and temporal is not eneough. Need waveband, semantics... Services only provide one dimension 01:36:55 s/Can;t/can't/ 01:37:27 ... The challenge is how to connect the data together. 01:37:54 .. We want to process it on the provider side, and in the middle (brokers) - but they don't have the knowledge to do it. 01:38:24 chunming_ has joined #ceo-ld 01:38:27 ... We have a broker in the middle, who understands the different datasets, the geoloc, the waveband, the semantics 01:39:26 ... We don't cover all granularities, so 30m might be normalised to 10 m, for eg 01:39:56 present+ Yingying_Chen 01:40:05 ... Then there's the temporal dimension. We may get data twice a day but we may only want it every 8 days. The broker will take care of that 01:40:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 01:40:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 01:40:38 Jeremy has joined #ceo-ld 01:40:59 Guoching: Another aspect is the standards. So the water users, the agricultural users etc. it should be the same. 01:41:22 ... The current data model may have one or two dimensions, but we need multi-dimensions 01:41:50 ... IF there were a technology for the Web user and the providers so the host base can make the data available for our workflow.. 01:42:09 ... We have decided on a very complex workflow because there is no such service from the provider 01:42:36 GB: One of the reasons we have this project is because the use of Satellite data is not used as much as it shoiuld be - because you need to be an expert. 01:42:47 ... We want the data to be better used. 01:43:10 ... The data processing etc. is traditional - but is RADI interested in making the imagery Web accessibkle 01:43:20 GQ: It is my intention, yes 01:43:42 jtandy_: I heard it's not just remote sensing - it's airborne, UAVs, in situ 01:43:58 ... I think here's we're looking at space borne here but the SDW is looking more broadly 01:44:30 dmckenzie has joined #ceo-ld 01:44:31 GQ: I haven't mentioned too much about airborne, it's more complex. We just use the airbonre data, but it's really complex. 01:44:58 ... So when you take your raw data and trun it into your common product, are you using s atandard grid, standard CRS etc? 01:45:01 GQ: Yes 01:45:09 JT: So the data can be staked and used together 01:45:11 GQ: Yes 01:45:36 JT: I think there's a lot of similarity between what you're doing and what Maik is doing, combining different datasets. 01:45:57 MR: I'll try and cover a bit of everything in my time slot. 01:46:41 wiki page: https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/Beijing_Workshop 01:47:10 scribe: chunming 01:47:37 xuezhi has joined #ceo-ld 01:47:41 phila: different source of data --> common services 01:47:45 ... something here, magic happens 01:48:21 ... do you see web technology mediate as a good media to make data to different people 01:48:55 ... how much of the satalitte available to public, the world. 01:49:25 GB: make use to other body, other countries, without go through formal process 01:49:52 Guoqing: first factor: capability ... to make the data accssed 01:50:07 ... second., the policy.. at this moment, china user is fine 01:50:37 ... that's why we collaborate with Jibo, with GCR team (?), a italian parter 01:50:46 ... to make a portal to geo data 01:50:52 ... as Chinese as a data services in RADI 01:51:34 phila: for UK china collaboration ? 01:51:57 ... but it is not a unique chinese thing 01:52:13 GQ: Study is OK, operational may be more of a problem. 01:53:18 Xuezhi Wang: The public services of Geospatial data cloud 01:54:04 ... why this project? in 2008, USGS opened all geospatial datasets to public for free 01:54:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 01:54:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 01:54:40 meeting: CEO-LD Beijing Meeting 01:55:14 ... platform objectives: construct a one-stop data services 01:55:40 ... three ways:search by address name, geo-loction, administrative unit 01:55:42 Chair: phila, dmckenzie 01:56:12 ... data resources including LANDSAT, MODIS, ..., 350+ TB data entities, 7 million data records, coveraging China area 01:56:21 ... some screen snapshots 01:56:48 ... result page, shows the datasets using a tabular view 01:56:55 jianhui_ has joined #ceo-ld 01:57:30 DEM is Digital Elevantion Model 01:57:49 ... traditional way to get dataset: download DEM data, mosaic DEM data with ARcGIS, and clip DEM data with Beijing shape mask 01:57:54 ... better way, ... @@@ 01:58:46 .... overall framewok: tasks to a VM cloud on data processing and storage 01:59:15 ... provide online category for spatiality tools and dataset. 01:59:41 ... use can submit tasks on geting, processing datasets according to the special task (filters) 02:00:00 ... after task finished, user can download the data 02:00:12 ... have over 100k chinese users now 02:00:20 ... average download over 200GB/day 02:00:49 Xuezhi: Geospatial Data Visualization tools in the platform 02:01:13 ... overall framework, using web client HTML5 map client 02:01:32 ... provide dynamical cache , and map styles editors 02:01:46 ... web client communicate with backends cloud VMs 02:02:13 ... in this system, user can render multi-bands raster layer with RGB false color 02:02:33 ... combine diffenent data , and rendering in different layer 02:02:43 ... user can edit the vectors on web page 02:02:52 ... publish landsat TM dataset 02:03:40 dmckenzie_ has joined #ceo-ld 02:03:59 ... TM semantic mapper 02:04:11 [xuezhi show demo on the system] 02:04:44 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 02:04:44 ... search TM satalitte data with selecting Beijing area 02:05:05 ... user can changed the waveband 02:05:40 http://giscloud.cn 02:06:53 phila: if i collect on the result, we just see images? 02:07:01 q+ To ask if processing is server-side 02:08:19 ack jeremy 02:08:19 Jeremy, you wanted to ask if processing is server-side 02:08:53 Jeremy: is all of the processing on server side? (on VMs) 02:09:02 Xuezhi: yes 02:09:28 Jeremy: can you do some of simple task (analysis task) on browser? so it will reduce latency 02:09:53 ... we are thinking on how to do the process in browser 02:10:37 ... all image data, but if you want to combine vector data, the image data don't work with that 02:11:55 GB: So what's the relevance of this to our project. Might we help create something more useful to others? 02:12:17 Jeremy: I think we're trying to go furtehr than where this project is, but it serves as validation that the problem exists. 02:12:28 billroberts: This looks like a good subset of the probelsm we're looking at 02:12:44 ... We can think about what the additional problems might be. 02:13:04 GB: So what? What does this inspire us to think about, change, etc? 02:13:24 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 02:14:34 phila: Talked a bit about sharing data. 02:15:00 GB: Several years ago, USGS made the data available. Now they have a lot of international relations and partnerships. 02:15:10 ... It must be a powerful economic driver. 02:15:29 billroberts: Web Map Services etc are useful, but we want to be able to access subsets of the data 02:15:40 ... So we need IDs for subsets, so you can get it, annotate it etc. 02:15:56 q+ 02:16:03 GB: The fundamental argument is that making the data available has enormous potential. 02:16:28 Jeremy: At the moment you have a portal that has lots of contextual info in the portal that allows you to browse and discover. For the data to be easier to find... 02:16:46 ... you need the context 02:17:07 ... How do you make the data discoverable> What standardiused metadata are you able to publish that allows otehrs to see what you have available. 02:17:20 ... Those are the initial steps that need to be taken. 02:17:24 ... That's what adds value 02:17:31 ... When people reuse it 02:18:05 ... The 2nd and 3rd reuse benefits everyone. So... do you publish standard metadata that allows other systemns to know what data you have? If no, then we can help. 02:18:30 GQ: We are users of their cloud. We can get their metadata and use their data in my project. 02:18:36 Jeremy: What form is that metadata published in? 02:18:53 GQ: We have a standard that we extended from another 02:19:00 ... Base standrad is CSW 02:19:11 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:19:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 02:20:04 Topic: Tianyu Wo 02:20:28 Tianyu_Wo: Looking at Chaufferred car services 02:21:16 ... We have a student from Sino-French group who can pronounce Chauffeur 02:21:27 ... taxi services being killed by this 02:22:12 Tianyu_Wo: U-Car used to be a car rental company. There's the company owned fleet who hire drivers 02:22:24 ... Other kind of service is private owner services like Uber 02:22:33 ... provides a platform to give their services. 02:22:47 ... Both need a strong ICT platform to manage the cars and drivers 02:22:59 Jeremy_1 has joined #ceo-ld 02:23:15 ... Both customers and service provider need safe, steady services 02:23:35 ... Always want to know where my cars are etc. 02:23:45 ... Building a platform to collect the sensor data 02:24:11 ... I have written a use case. My UCs may be a little far from todfay's topic but the requirements for coverage data come later 02:24:17 ... Also processing data in real time 02:24:31 ... providing flexible product for the company mostly. 02:25:03 ... Want metrics about customer waiting time etc. Want more efficiency. better efficiency is important (petrol etc.) 02:25:23 ... big fleet, growing fast 02:25:31 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 02:25:33 ... Services is > 30 cities, > 10M users 02:26:03 ... data platform needs to work 24/7, receives 120M messages a day 02:26:38 ... Business requirements change over time 02:26:48 ... Want to develop IoV system 02:27:01 ... tried integarating data from diff sources 02:27:43 ... Want to get some facts from the cars, like abrupt turns, acceleration etc. 02:27:49 ... Can feedback to the driver 02:28:00 ... Can judge the driver of course 02:28:20 ... Collecting GPS data for speed, direction etc. Also detailed data from the car itself 02:28:30 ... On board diagnostics etc. 02:28:47 ... Around 25K cars in the fleet, trying to expand to 60K 02:29:02 ... data platform 02:29:35 ... 99% of requests are for current data 02:30:38 ... We put the data into a SQL like system, put the whol lot into an H-Base big data storage. Lots of data redundancy, did some work to reduce redundancy 02:31:18 Tianyu_Wo: Shows system diagram 02:32:03 ... Most work is on the back end, streaming and batch processing 02:32:12 ... We have spatio-temporal data storage system 02:32:32 .. For real time streaming processing, we are focusing on data quality analysis 02:32:54 ... Data collected from different cars. May get into a tunnel and not transmit, then send later 02:33:12 ... Portal tries to give easier interface to the company to understand what's heppening. 02:33:53 ... Single route of a car, we can see the petrol consumption. Is it in the same trend as others? If not, maybe there's something wrong. 02:34:18 ... Doing sometehing about prediction of where orders are coming from, combuned with other datasets. 02:34:54 ... For e.g. the weather may be a factor, but we're not using that now. We can maybe send drivers to an area where we expect lots of orders. 02:35:16 ... Looking for wasted mileage etc. 02:36:11 ... Want to open the data in future. 02:36:36 ... Only use of satellite data is GPS, but this kind of data needs to be opened, and service needs to evolve. 02:37:08 ... Want to tackle data privacy 02:37:14 ... Can't do individual data 02:37:24 ... Not a good idea to process all the data in the browser 02:37:55 ... In our portal, we show the vehicle distribution, but if we load all the car location data into the browser, it will crash. Need to pre-process 02:38:04 ... Challenge is that the business is changing 02:38:24 ... Need some non-functional but important business opportunities. 02:38:57 GQ: You said there are 120M messages per day. What's in those messages? 02:39:13 Tianyu_Wo: The status of the GPS, OBD, etc. 02:39:19 ... cars report every 10 seconds 02:39:26 zhaojinghua has joined #ceo-ld 02:39:44 Tianyu_Wo: One car sends about 10K packages per day 02:42:12 phila: Asked a bit about putting sensor data into coverages, predictions, air quality etc. 02:43:17 Jeremy_1: We're focussed on satellite rather than in situ sensors 02:43:25 phila: Yes, but they're not mutually exclusive 02:43:46 chunming: I wanted to talk about moving data processing to the browser 02:44:01 ... Of course you should only download the data you need, on demand, as the application needs 02:44:23 ... We have a big chunk of pre-processing but then you get the relevant data 02:44:48 ... Looks like we might need some client side tools, encouraging people to do more client side processing 02:45:33 Tianyu_Wo: Coverage is not only from satellites - air borne, in situ etc. 02:45:45 ... SO I think your work is related to our toipic today. 02:46:07 yingying: I think Tianyu_Wo is really related to our work in UbiWeb and Automotive 02:46:33 chunming: I think in WoT there is an overlap with coverage data. data formats, data sharing 02:46:47 yingying: Location based services and telematics next. 02:48:00 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:48:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 02:48:27 present+ phila 02:48:29 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:48:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 02:48:51 Topic: Maik 02:49:22 MaikRiechert: There are some things you must do server side, but post processing of compact data can be done. 02:49:50 ... Takes a land cover map 02:50:01 ... Ina GIS cloud you can do what a server supports. 02:50:13 ... We want to move some to the browser, where it makes sense 02:50:50 ... Suppose I want to select a region 02:51:08 ... I find a raw JSON file that's compact, I load the data 02:51:12 ... Paste in the URL 02:51:32 ... It loads, and I can inspect it and see what it says. 02:52:01 ... Suppose the data didin't come from a GIS peson 02:52:21 ... So I wanted to have different formats, GeoJSON and our own CoverageJSON format 02:52:34 ... I created a small subset just be combining these two files. 02:52:55 ... It looks like an image but it';s not it's data 02:53:13 ... All that data is in the browser 02:54:08 MaikRiechert: Core functionality that should be supported is what the browser supoprts, but we need to be able to select bounding boxes, different resolutions 02:54:28 ... If your data is too big for common web clients to handle, then you need to pre-process. 02:54:41 ... If data goes over a few MB then need to pre-process 02:54:47 billroberts: So what are we seeing here? 02:55:05 MaikRiechert: That's about 500KB, 500 x 500 Pixels 02:55:16 ... 300MB compressed JSON gets you the whole UK 02:55:31 Jeremy_1: In the old days, 40 MB in the browser was too much, but not now. 02:55:48 MaikRiechert: But you need to be careful. a few MB of JSOn can expand to hundreds of MB 02:56:10 ... We also experiemented with ... 02:56:41 ...You can assign different colours to different types 02:56:52 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 02:56:57 ... Maybe the server side doesn't support that. In the browser we can do this - mapping different colours to different categories. 02:57:18 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 02:57:39 ... There are different kinds of land cover schemes. we mapped one to another. All I loaded was the defintions, in the browser I can make the mapping. 02:57:54 ... Which means researchers can play with it easiy, with drag and drop etc. 02:58:11 ... Lots of post process data. 02:58:27 ... Once you've made these kinds of derived datasets available, then you can let others easily experiment. 02:58:40 ... And inspire them to take the data and do what they want. 02:58:54 ... Really just show others how they can create interesting new ideas. 02:59:29 ... When you look at ways of doing this, you see the OGC standards, WxS etc. But if you have custom solutions, it's hard to implement by yourself 02:59:41 ... This is all simple REST-based JSON APIs etc. 02:59:54 ... Don't look too closely at the specific inplementations, but the concepts. 03:00:13 MaikRiechert: So how do we publish some data and not just offer images for download. 03:00:37 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 03:01:53 MaikRiechert: Dept of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs like the idea of getting rid of all the water as they're not interested in stats for that. 03:01:58 ... Which I did 03:02:43 ... In effect creating a new dataset - in the browser. 03:03:09 ... Affects things like the percentages of land cover types of course, which is what was wanted on that occasion. 03:04:03 billroberts: There are lots of well extablished bits of software in the GIS world, nothing wring with any of that. What I like here is that it uses a different set of software that is more familiar to a larger group of developers than GIS specialists. 03:04:13 xueyuan has joined #ceo-ld 03:04:43 JT: And because it's being done in the browser, you can use otehr Web tech, like service workers, to take it offline etc. 03:04:53 ... It's a browser application that's also a GIS application. 03:05:17 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 03:05:46 ... It's the use of regaular Web techniques that is the power here. Not NetCDF and otehr specialist formats. 03:06:04 ... This is about accessibility because people can use it., nothing to do with licences or metadata. 03:06:26 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 03:07:21 GQ: So this is working at the browser level. Our approach is to take the coverage... to try to develop sometehing to move to the browser. I think this demo is good. 03:07:38 ... I;m thinking about the performance. If the data size and process model is not too much then it can work there. 03:07:57 ... If the data size is too big, can this architecture hand;e it 03:08:09 s/I;m/I'm/g 03:08:35 Jeremy_2 has joined #ceo-ld 03:08:37 GQ: You have a map with the different layers, maybe this can reduce the number of laters 03:08:47 s/laters/layers/ 03:09:15 q+ to ask about result pagination 03:09:21 GQ: I think there must be someething that can be done to alter the percentage configuration... to, for example, generate the forest layer. 03:09:36 MaikRiechert: This dataset is produced by a scientist, using a model, it takes time. 03:09:51 ... These things are not a good fit for doing in thr browser, at least for now. 03:10:15 ... When you think about vector data. For example, the Netherlands has an open dataset about all their trees (open) 03:10:31 ... And you can easily fcombine it with other data. it's simple and compact. 03:10:55 ... On the otehr hand, if you want to focus on, say, just London, you'd ask for just that. 03:11:07 ... There's no clear answer tyet for where it's suitable. 03:11:36 ... May not good for all the channels from a satellite image. Maybe you ask for some of the wavelengths, not all. 03:11:59 ... So for me its about what is the funtion we need the server to handle. By bounding box, by temporal etc. 03:12:53 MaikRiechert: Briefly shows CoverageJSON 03:13:34 billroberts: An API for retrieving data in a particular format sounds good, but how complex is the server side code for that? 03:14:14 MaikRiechert: That depends on what your existing services are like. If you have an OGC Web Coverage Service, it's simpler to implemente it over the existing one 03:14:25 ... It's all experimental for now. 03:14:52 q? 03:15:14 ack chunming_ 03:15:14 ack chunming 03:15:17 acj j 03:15:20 ack j 03:15:20 Jeremy_, you wanted to ask about result pagination 03:15:20 ack jeremy_ 03:15:46 Jeremy_2: When we talk about providing a RESTful API for gathering data from the server, have you talked about how to paginate the data into tiles? 03:15:50 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 03:15:51 ... There are lots of options 03:15:56 q? 03:15:57 MaikRiechert: Yes, there are lots of options 03:16:17 ... Pagination is something we have implemented. Gives example 03:16:25 ... Salinity and pressure 03:17:01 ... How would you filter such a big collection by bounding box or whatever/ 03:17:21 ... You shouldn't get the full collection in the browser. So instead we just serve the first page 03:17:44 MaikRiechert: One page was 10 points on the map. And the idea that the client is clever enough to know that it's just a page 03:18:04 Jeremy_2: And that uses Link headers? 03:18:13 MaikRiechert: yes, that's the simplest. 03:18:14 TianyuWo has joined #ceo-ld 03:19:08 Jeremy_2: Let's imagine the Uk set was too big for the browser... could you turn it into a collection of data tiles that was served as a collection of coverages? 03:19:25 ... So you could ask for a cube of data over London 03:20:07 Jeremy_2: The difference with subsetting is that you might be able to identify fixed tiles upfront so you start by serving 10MB at a time and the client can 'say when' 03:20:48 MaikRiechert: Since we have a server that can do subsetting, we haven't needed to do that. 03:20:58 billroberts: x and y might not be the only dimensions - time etc. 03:21:11 yingying_ has joined #ceo-ld 03:21:27 MaikRiechert: Each time slice is about 3 MB 03:21:33 ... It only loads when I click on something 03:21:56 ... When I do statistics over a time series, I can show a progress bar, so it collects one at a time 03:22:08 ... I can get rid of one as I load the next 03:22:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 03:22:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 03:40:07 xueyuan has joined #ceo-ld 03:55:50 Topic: Restarting after coffee 03:56:19 Jitao has joined #ceo-ld 03:56:27 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 03:57:06 Jeremy_3 has joined #ceo-ld 03:57:15 phila: Emphasises UK-China collaboration aspect 03:58:02 ... We want to bring the projects that we've heard about together 03:58:13 ... over the Denise for how that might work. 03:58:39 DM: We've had several examples, but we have that commonality about how we find and use that coverage data 03:59:07 ... What Jeremy and I will talk about is how we see that UK-China collaboration develop 03:59:28 ... to see if we can describe gthe common experience, and how we might do some work together that leads to the spec that we produce. 03:59:56 s/guoching/Guoqing/ig 04:00:37 DM: So thinking about a common story - sommon tools, looking at the MELODIES work Maik taledd about, but also looking at those data themes that are commn. Water, agriculture, disadter management 04:00:42 ... fire management. 04:00:57 ... We'd like to get agreement on the themes. We need Chinese input. 04:01:17 dmckenzie has joined #ceo-ld 04:02:17 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 04:02:21 DM: So a quick question... 04:02:31 ... How many are looking at the IRC chat? 04:02:57 ... Because in order for this collaboration to work, we need to makea sure that we can all access the same tools. 04:03:06 ... So that's things like GitHub, the wiki 04:03:07 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 04:03:21 ... This afternoon can only be successful if everyoine contributes to the conversation. 04:03:32 ... Important for us to understand the barriers that may exist between the two nations. 04:04:41 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 04:04:51 DM: So rather than asking about those barriers in detail, I'll ask Jeremy to talk about the ideas we have had about how to move forward. What I ask is that you think about the ideas and please make other suggestions if you can. 04:05:13 TianyuWo has joined #ceo-ld 04:05:21 xuezhi has joined #ceo-ld 04:06:19 geoffrey has joined #ceo-ld 04:06:45 如何识别共性需求，水资源管理？土地管理？ 04:06:49 Jeremy_3: What common themes can we find between UK and China. Land usage, Water? Agriculture 04:08:06 Jeremy_3: This morning when I heard about the CNIC & RADI projects - those projects were allowing other people to derive value from data. Lots of data for lots of purposes. 04:08:46 jianhui: We are a data centre. We provide the service to scientists, we focus on the data infrastructure. 04:09:27 CNIC的project和Reading的项目都是允许其他用户提供增值服务。没有看到具体的应用领域，需要利用大数据输入和应用。 04:09:28 ... You mention the different themes. I remember 2 months ago there was a UK/China joint call for proposals focussing on using the remote sensing data to solve agricultural problems. 04:09:51 jianhui: Maybe our project can help with that 04:10:12 geoffrey: We can look at what cateches the most attention? I guess it's agriculture, water etc. 04:10:41 中国有什么具体的应用，更关心那些领域？是否这些公共数据库（平台）方案是有意义的。 04:10:47 Guoqing: I think maybe there is a problem with the people round the table now. 04:11:03 ... jianhui and I are from the data centre, we're not application scientists 04:11:31 ... I know the agriculture area is very important and there are big research terms working on this. 04:11:50 ... A model developed here is one of hte most used around the world. 04:12:00 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 04:12:06 ... important contribution to GEO. But they're not here. 04:12:20 ... Only he can get a project in this call, not the team here. 04:12:20 ...农业是具体的应用，有专家利用遥感数据，形成重要的数据模型，指导农业 04:12:43 ... Maybe tomorrow night we'll have a dinner with Geoffrey and others and maybe we can address the question there. 04:13:02 ... Agriculture is a very important topic, as is air pollution. 04:13:06 ...可以和华东大学专家联系。 04:13:28 ... The most important thing for air pollution is the model, not the data processing. 04:13:54 ... We need cooperation on the model. I think we can focus on agriculture. 04:14:25 ... If we can move the interest from the end application to a basic level... 04:14:38 ...污染方面的数据共享，科学数据模型更被关注，农业应用更加关键 04:14:39 ... They won't really understand why we're talking about coverage here. 04:14:45 ... We have limited time etc. 04:15:28 geoffrey: Does Ping Fan use the kind of tech that Maik was showing earlier? If so is that a future route to coppoeration. 04:15:49 guoqing: We should talk to him and his team. 04:16:46 billroberts: Can I ask a similar question... there aren't many users of the data around the table. Is there enough capacity in the UK to bring in representaives of the community that we'd like? 04:17:00 Geoffrey: I'#d love to have Maik working on my project on ice caps 04:17:44 ...The problem that we all suffer from... people deliver images to me but I'm not an image deliverer. getting to a state where I can manipulate the data like that would be good. 04:18:29 RRSAgent, draft minutes 04:18:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 04:18:53 scribe: phila 04:19:37 Jeremy_3: What I take from the conversation... we're not end users ourselves, generally, nor are we experts in the domain of application. 04:19:47 ... None of us are agronomists 04:20:05 ...我们不是最终用户，我们想象的需求可能和真正的领域专家不同。 04:20:11 ... We also know that if we spend all our time trying to develop a new scientific model, or new application, we'll quickly run out of time and resources. 04:20:42 Jeremy_3: So rather than demonstrate new science, can we do something with the combination of coverage data and discrete data that would show what we can do with a follow on project? 04:21:33 chunming: We have seen 2 infrastructure projects - can we choose one and find collaborators to work with us and do some development. Maybe connected car can be a candidate 04:21:36 ...我们不应关注到具体领域内，而应该关注coverage数据集的组合，关注后续可能的应用 04:22:17 Jeremy_3: So we look at the existing projects and the necessary collaborators today, because we need to fast track this project, but we're looking for the follow on project. 04:22:27 ... It's an application of the tech, not just the tech itself. 04:22:40 ... Which is a better way to get the attention of the politicians and funders. 04:23:04 ...需要一个快速上路的项目目标和应用技术需求，快速吸引资助方关注。 04:23:16 Guiqing: I'd like to suggest that we can simplify this work, and can select a common product level. 04:23:52 ... Maybe a @@@ index, a vegetable index. These are commoin indicators for agriculture. And we can use JSON for that. 04:24:27 ...选择简单易理解的应用，民众可以直接理解，下载应用。例如是否可以公开风云卫星的部分数据，让民众思考如何处理和应用 04:24:39 ... Jianhui can provide MODIS data, we can put the processing of this data, maybe in the browser level. 04:24:45 ... It will bring some challenges 04:24:47 yingying has joined #ceo-ld 04:25:17 ... China is many times bigger than the UK so the amount of data is much bigger. For MODIS, 3 passes covers China. More that 600 MB per pass 04:25:31 ... twice per day so that's a lot of data per day. 04:25:51 ... So it's c ahhelnge for this architecture. 04:25:54 ...挑战：数据主要关注中国、亚洲。数据量很大。风云数据量大，600M每次穿越，3次穿越覆盖中共 04:25:55 chaixiangqian has joined #ceo-ld 04:26:07 ... @@@ data is not well organised. It's not as well organised as MODIS 04:26:17 ... There are problems with the data format and service 04:26:20 ... MODIS is very well organised 04:26:30 s/中共/中国/ 04:26:33 ... So it's well used. 04:26:58 ... I want to find some new challenges 04:27:20 ... We can get feedback from the user community. 04:27:52 ... Trying to integrate everything together - we don't need too much time to do this. 04:27:54 ...可以关注应用社区的反馈。不需要开始就针对应用投入大量资源。 04:28:41 MaikRiechert: How would it work together... would it be some internal development. How would we actually work together? 04:28:50 Guoqing: WE can discuss this. 04:29:27 Jeremy: Any development done in this project needs to be openly available. I think we'd be prepared to commit to publishing the software and using data that is openly available so that we can demonstrate what we've done. 04:29:49 ...确保我们开放的数据都能很好的被访问。 04:30:07 dmckenzie has joined #ceo-ld 04:30:12 Jianhui: I wonder whether in this project we can produce common products, maybe with DBI, but the mature goal for this project - should we try to demonstrate a new style for our service. 04:30:35 ... The key point is producing ... a new style data services. 04:31:05 ...项目的最终目标，是否应该产生新形式的数据服务 04:31:29 jeremy: It's not too difficult for produce a new product for NVDI or ?? We can then investigate the deliveray of new services following the kind of patrtern Maik demonstrated earlier. 04:31:51 ... So we'd first create a new common product., Then we'd try and provide some new services that the users currently don't get, something they don't have already. 04:32:05 Jianhui: If we just want to try some new services, they're there already? 04:32:18 ...新的数据服务可以尝试利用上午Maik的数据开放平台组织应用 04:32:21 Guoqing: I don't think so. This is a new workflow for me 04:32:31 ... To reorganise this common product. 04:32:38 ... Accroding to this geotemporal area 04:33:06 ... WE can try to get the limited data from the data resource. Precise data set 04:33:44 ... I don't think distrubution is a real problem, it's the reorganising of hte workflow. 04:33:44 ...新的数据处理工作流。重构数据处理流程 04:33:55 +1 to guoqing 04:34:15 GB: Thinking about the longer term. There's an opportunity for collaboration in the long term. Including the kind of Maik approach in your (GQ's) work. 04:34:30 RRSAgent, draft minutes 04:34:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html chunming 04:34:41 GB: One we coujld take an application domain, pref with a wide set of phenomena associeated with it. Partly as a demo and partly as an app to get funding. 04:34:57 ... We have W3C and OGC who are promoting a generic approach. That's less like to be productive. 04:35:29 ...2个选择：1. 一个具体的展示领域。e.g.减灾工作 04:35:39 ... There are 2 programmes that would love to see this. IRDR Disaster reduction prog - pushed into gathering data and integrating it, including in places here there is no nigh order tech, 04:36:13 ... The Future Earth Programme is the other. It has offices in all major continents. Thgere's a geospatial base but it's pretty limited. 04:36:27 ... I can think of how we might approach both those for something serious and ambitious. 04:36:37 ...2. 未来地球项目 04:36:38 ... But to get to that stage, we need ther kind of collaboration we're talking about. 04:36:52 GB: There's potential for some serious funding in the thematic domains. 04:36:58 ...有很多的机会 04:37:28 dmckenzie: In terms of the purpose of the project, the SDWWG has its Best practice doc that is generic. Focussing on one domain at th eexpense of the generic might be problematic. 04:37:43 ... We need the involvement of a domain, but how how do you make this easy to use cross domain. 04:37:51 ...需要领域参与，但不应该太关注单独的领域。更多关注跨领域的需求 04:37:52 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 04:38:03 ... Whilst yes, you can get funding, we need to be careful how we play it. 04:38:39 ... Our SDOs is quite domain related. OGC has a domain WG for oceans, agriculture etc. but we standardise across domains. 04:38:54 GB: The Belmont Forum is about working acorss domains. 04:39:01 ...OGC有农业等多个领域工作，更加有助于理解跨领域的需求 04:39:09 billroberts: I agree that we need to create something that is generic. 04:39:32 billroberts: In liaison with end user groups - I'm guilty of creating something that they think is easy for end users may not be. 04:39:52 ... The other value of the end user approach is you can often point to real savings. 04:40:25 dmckenzie: There will be people here who don't participate on OGC, but we're structured to try and help with that. We don't just have groups that look only at WcS etc. 04:40:38 ... We have domain WGs to keep the connection with the users. 04:40:46 q+ on generic vs. domain specific 04:40:58 ... In picking a domian or thematic area, there's certainly scope for using the domain WGs. 04:41:04 ...和最重用户要有紧密的联系 04:41:13 ... There's a TC within a week in Washington. The Met Office has staff going to that. 04:41:23 ... Thyere's no reason why ideas generated today can't be taken to that. 04:41:44 ack chaixiangqian 04:41:49 ack c 04:41:49 chunming, you wanted to comment on generic vs. domain specific 04:42:32 chunming: For standardisation, we need common things to be defined. In the London meeting we talked about the semantics of the datasets. And APIs between the client and the slices of the data 04:42:41 ... We need a framework for handling the different dimensions. 04:43:27 ... For some specific dimensions, e.g. waveband, we can give an extension mechanism to dfine their own dimensions. 04:43:40 +q 04:43:41 ...共性需求需要被定义。数据的共性维度，具体应用领域可以定义自己的维度，可扩展 04:43:49 chunming: If we are successful, then diff developers may use that to define domain-specific tools. 04:44:18 ... I'm thinking that for coverages on the web we need to think long term and for now we just show what might happen, 04:44:27 时间-空间-频谱-主题 04:44:34 ...核心的Web相关标准，应该关注核心共性数据，可以快速展现给用户 04:45:04 JT: For this project, we want to develop those generic ideas. We'll use NVDI and Leaf Index because they're interesting for the Chinese groups. 04:45:36 coverage就是需要给一个从全要素空间中快速取得多时空子集的技术框架 04:45:44 DM: I know that the UK govt. is working on something very similar and we can ask the relevant people. 04:46:10 JT: In terms of the following project, we could pick on two domains and deliver against those. 04:46:19 q? 04:46:32 MaikRiechert: Can I suggest that we look at an inter comparison of 2 datasets. 04:46:34 ack maikriechert 04:46:54 ... Then you can find out why you can't inter compare. Units is an issue, for example (Celcius/Kelvin) 04:47:43 ... Measurements from bouys often have different units. 04:47:53 ... We need to work through that. 04:48:23 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 04:48:37 ... How do you say that 2 things that you measure are the same concept. You can have 2 different temperatiures but at different hieghts etc., they mean different things. 04:49:04 q+ 04:49:11 GB: One thing we should be clear about is what we mean by domain. 04:49:36 ... For example, we can think about lots of things like oceans, air etc. But questions are asked differently. 04:49:50 ... Disaster management will want real time info. Future Earth works in decades. 04:50:05 ... A domain is not just a physical phenomenon. 04:50:27 DM: I don't know that we think about it in that way. Those are different users, but the data underlying it will be the same. 04:50:47 DM: You're asking a more user-centric question. Froma domain space it's the same. 04:51:21 DM: Met oceans etc. You can still think people might want different questions. Bush fires happening now, bush fire trends - same data. 04:51:28 GB: It's a spectral view 04:51:33 ack billroberts 04:51:50 billroberts: When does this project have an end? 04:51:58 phila: May 04:52:31 dmckenzie has joined #ceo-ld 04:52:36 phila: And no one has time allocated to it. 04:52:51 JT: So a couple of mini projects around NVDI and Leaf Index... 04:53:19 ... If we can show that the Chinese people who have projects on that now, can take Maik's work and try it out for their work, that is interestung. 04:53:32 ... Benefit for China is potential new services/methods 04:53:53 ... benefit for UK is validation/highlighting problems with CoverageJSON approach 04:54:03 ...向国人展示一种构造应用的新方法 04:54:35 GB: The key thing is motivation. Is that sufficiently interesting for our Chinese colleagues and Uk colleagues? 04:54:53 Jianhui: I think it's possible that we can try and implement the CoverageJSON idea and maybe make a demo. 04:55:06 ... but maybe there are some differences. 04:55:16 ... And we can give feedback to you. 04:55:18 ... I think it's possible. 04:56:10 XW: I thinkw e can try that. The big problem is how to use the raster data 04:56:21 ...可以尝试CNIC的数据json化，共享出来。需要明确技术挑战是什么？ 04:56:50 XW: How to retrieve and organise the grid data is the challenge 04:56:59 ...如何获取grid数据？ 04:57:13 JT: I think Guoqing was saying that developing a new workflow was of interest to you. 04:57:41 ... If your (GQ's) team coiuld develop the new workflow and Jianhui's team can explose it. 04:58:03 ... You said that the UK is very small and compact, whereas you need 3x600MB passes to cover China. 04:58:23 ... And you have data that is quite poorly organised, helping people work through that would be helpful. 04:58:37 ... But by providing new services you can get feedback from new users. 04:58:48 +q 04:58:51 ...如何让用户参与？ 04:58:57 ... One essential feedback loop is to engage users. 04:59:02 ... And maybe this would help? 04:59:04 q？ 04:59:07 to divide the workload (computing) between backends (offline)processing, and in browser (realtime, asy, on-line) processing, is a interest thing in the workload. 04:59:08 MaikRiechert: Can you define users? 04:59:18 q? 04:59:18 ... Researchers? Others 04:59:23 GQ: Researchers, yes. 04:59:55 MaikRiechert: Combinging data from raw sources is hard. Researchers won't combine datasets etc. 05:00:52 JT: I think you're right. If we want to engage technical users, cf. research users, we'd need to do more outreach. 05:01:23 GB: One quick one about users... what I mean by users are people who have a scientific or preactical problem they want to solve and they don't need to employ someone else to help them 05:01:35 billroberts: +1 05:01:42 == Lunch== 05:01:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes 05:01:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 05:47:29 phila has joined #ceo-ld 05:56:41 phila_ has joined #ceo-ld 05:59:42 phila__ has joined #ceo-ld 06:08:10 phila has joined #ceo-ld 06:12:53 zakim, who is here? 06:12:53 Present: jtandy, D_McKenzie, dmckenzie, billroberts, MaikReichert, Geoffrey, GeofferyBoulton, phil, Jeremy, Denise, Guoqing, Jitao, Jibo, Jianhui, Tianyu, Xueyuan, Chunming, 06:12:57 ... Jinghua_Zhao, Qun_Zhang, Xianqian_Chai, Xiaohai_Li, Jinwei_Wang, Yingying_Chen, phila 06:12:57 On IRC I see phila, Zakim, RRSAgent 06:13:19 chunming has joined #ceo-ld 06:15:38 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 06:15:42 geoffrey has joined #ceo-ld 06:17:30 scribe: phila 06:17:38 Jitao has joined #ceo-ld 06:18:16 denise: let's summarise next steps and check it is feasible and practical 06:18:45 ...what should be the outcome in 3 months, then work back to identify what we have to do 06:19:04 ...data flowing into a service 06:19:51 jtandy: GQ identified 3 things. 1 Workflow for NVDI leaf index data, 2) much of that dataset is not well organised so from a data centre perspective, how can that be structured to support better discovery and usage 06:20:11 Jitao has joined #ceo-ld 06:20:22 3) develop services for the end users (researchers) allowing them to do analysis without help from an intermediary 06:20:37 ...this will need develop of simple web applications to show what is possible 06:21:01 jtandy: summary 1) workflow 2) data organisation 3) implement simple applications 06:21:12 phila: that soudns like a lot to do by May 06:21:15 jtandy: some could be done in parallel 06:22:41 phila: need to check later with GQ (when he returns) that his team can do what we expect in the avaalable time 06:23:17 phila: idea is that RADI would deliver data via the CoverageJSON approach to Jianhui's group at CAS so that they can use it 06:24:07 jianhui: this could lead to providing feedback to Maik on how well CoverageJSON works in this context 06:24:31 maik: yes, that is the intention. The work is not complete and feedback is welcome. Things can be changed if necessary 06:25:01 jianhui: can we use another style to publish services? 06:25:38 xuezhi: 'BISON' (not sure of spelling) 06:26:10 maik: interesting to compare JSON and a binary approach 06:26:47 maik: it's just a different container 06:27:12 jtandy: not much difference in practice between binary form and compressed JSON. Is that right? 06:27:45 maik: for a lot of data, parsing JSON takes longer than processing binary. Compactness is similar but processing is slower with JSON 06:28:12 maik: motivation was to use common web formats that can be easily used inside a browser 06:30:44 chunming: compare with web mapping service - browser applicatoin with a lot of data in the backend. It's about easy to use protocols to make the data easy to use in web applications 06:31:08 chunming: text based web friendly formats are interesting because of ease of use, even if there is a performance penalty 06:31:41 chunming: pagination work in the data activity is also relevant 06:31:53 phila: that's in the Linked Data Platform work 06:32:05 maik: if you have GB of data, then it will be too big whatever approach you use 06:32:30 maik: let's pick an example that works with a manageable amount of data, so maybe use lower resolution data 06:33:01 maik: so do some work on the browser. If it's necessary to get more detail, then that might involve downloading data and using desktop or server side tools 06:33:34 phila: talking about easy ways to use web map services - is that just leaflet.js 06:33:41 maik:...sort of 06:33:52 maik: good for use of tiled data 06:34:08 jtandy: also openlayers 06:34:40 maik: WMS can have several layers - more flexibility but heavier to use. Not built into leaflet, though there is a plugin. Maybe not that relevant 06:35:39 jtandy: today applications are stuck with dumb images, even if tiled. Want to work with meaningful data, so that for example you can calculate interesection with a polygon of interest, like the boundary of Beijing say 06:35:55 jtandy: we don't want to be stuck with server side processing 06:36:12 maik: shows an example of what cannot be done with just an image 06:36:38 https://www.windyty.com/ 06:36:39 maik: download sets of coverage data, then create an animation in the browser 06:36:55 maik: because it is the browser, the user experience can be much more interactive 06:37:36 jtandy: as you zoom out, the user is shown lower resolution data. Coverage object consists of the decsription of the domain, the grid and the data 06:38:18 jtandy: server can decide at what resolution to serve coverage data according to the type of call - to assist client side applications to work effectively 06:38:39 phila: this makes me think of an accept header where you could specify the maximum amount of data you want to get. 06:39:15 jtandy: [waffling] 06:39:38 chunming: so some kind of content negotiation? 06:39:48 phila: let's bring it back to deciding who is going to do what 06:40:06 phila: what is it reasonable to ask CNIC to do? what support is needed from the rest of the group 06:40:20 phila: what can CNIC commit to? Only two months so it needs to be quite small 06:40:31 maik: what kind of server side data formats are used at CNIC? 06:40:44 xuezhi: GeoTIFF 06:41:22 maik: could it be converted to NetCDF? (because we already have software for exposing arbitrary NetCDF in CoverageJSON, so that would allow re-use of existing tools 06:41:58 xuezhi: no problem to convert GeoTIFF to JSON 06:42:12 maik: but if convert to NetCDF can use my library 06:42:42 jtandy: some advantages for the project if CNIC do not use maik's library, but instead re-implement the specification themselves 06:43:11 ...a better test of whether the specification is implementable if CNIC reimplement, rather than using Maik's software directly 06:43:33 jtandy: separate step is developing a method to deliver subsets of it 06:43:46 maik/phila: sounds like too much, that could be in follow-on project 06:44:00 phila: just the first bit about delivering geotiff in CoverageJSON would be a big step forward 06:45:29 phila: can we write down what CNIC is going to do, to check everyone has same understanding 06:45:50 maik: would it be possible for me to access CNIC's implementation so I can see it? 06:46:01 Jitao has joined #ceo-ld 06:46:14 jianhui: server not usually public, but we could give you access 06:46:39 denise: [writes summary of the plan on screen] 06:47:19 Who is doing what: 06:47:22 CNIC: 06:47:39 - Library that converts GeoTIFF to CoverageJSON 06:50:13 RADI: 06:51:07 - Something that is moderately too large for browser 06:51:43 - workflow for NVDI & Leaf Index (National Vegetation Diversity Index?) 06:52:21 [Guoginq (GQ) re-joins the meeting] 06:53:37 jtandy: CNIC should create a GeoTIFF that is moderately too large for the browser, so we know that the demo can't 'cheat' by just loading everything 06:54:50 RADI: to create 2 new content products as GeoTIFF (NVDI and leaf area index) 06:55:46 University of Reading (maik) will provide support and can help with new features if required 06:56:34 jianhui: xuezhi can liaise directly with Maik 06:56:53 jtandy: this will lead to collaborative improvement of the restful API. 06:57:15 maik: we really want to know about anything that needs improved 06:58:47 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 06:59:40 jtandy: other side of the restful API collaboration is CNIC (and RADI) 06:59:54 Guoqing: also interested in the API work 07:00:07 maik: so will involve RADI in discussion as well as CNIC 07:00:44 jtandy: so now we have a server but no client...Maik, you have some client applications already. Are you able to do more client app work? 07:00:53 maik: I need to understand better what the data is 07:01:11 jtandy/denise: just indices, scalar values 07:01:47 Guoqing: it's imagery. Each pixel has a simple value 07:02:12 Guiqing: it's a continuous scale, not discrete values 07:02:55 Guoqing: NVDI is a different concept, also continuous 07:03:16 Maik: yes, I can display it. But would need a use case for what it's for. 07:03:38 ...we can compare imagery to observations. Are there observations to compare with? 07:04:01 jtandy: what time period is there data available for? 07:04:34 Guoqing: different options available including seasonal 07:05:17 jtandy: for example, are there areas suffering drought that affects agricultural output, so we could look for anomalies of 'greenness' in comparison to seasonal norms? 07:05:36 maik: is it enough to compare the annual data with monthly data? 07:06:01 Guoqing: no, not really suitable for that 07:07:05 Guoqing: data comes as HDF5. If converted to GeoTIFF then it can't be continuous - only integer values possible in geotiff 07:07:32 ...so let's change the plan to use HDF instead of GeoTIFF 07:07:49 Guoqing: could probably do both HDF5 and GeoTIFF 07:09:33 maik: already working on comparing data between grids 07:10:26 jtandy: so we can add to the plan that UoReading can also offer a client application to support grid to grid comparison 07:11:10 phila: that looks like a good plan for CEO-LD 07:11:54 denise: how will the end of CEO-LD be communicated? Opportunity to present at Dublin OGC TC meeting in June. 07:12:12 phila: is there also a chance to present to a Chinese audience 07:12:20 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 07:12:47 phila_ has joined #ceo-ld 07:13:49 denise: there are other OGC opportunities, for example meeting in Taiwan in December 07:14:28 phila: most important deliverable for the UK Embassy will be a report (that can mention the demonstration sessions) 07:14:53 denise: Dublin meeting can involve web streaming and recordings to make it accessible globally 07:15:45 phila: can we confirm this is doable within 2 months? If this is too much, then say 07:16:00 denise: should we take a week to think about it and confirm? 07:16:33 phila: yes, we should have a 'cooling off' period! 07:17:23 phila: Maik, will your examples work with CHinese data? 07:17:31 maik: what is the coordinate system used? 07:18:27 Guoqing: coordinate system is standard, no problem 07:19:33 agreed: data will be provided as WGS84 lat/long 07:20:19 phila: also tasks to be added for W3C and OGC. W3C to be responsible for report (phila and chunming) 07:21:42 phila has joined #ceo-ld 07:21:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:21:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 07:22:42 scribe: phila 07:23:01 The plan of action will be added to the CEO-LD project wiki 07:23:34 jtandy: the Restful API will be hosted on the gscloud and will be accessible in UK (and Dublin!) 07:23:55 ... the web client can be hosted somewhere else 07:24:14 maik: the stuff i demonstrated earlier is public and can be used for testing 07:24:48 jianhui: CNIC will provide infrastructure for the demo. They have ample hosting resources they can access 07:26:26 jtandy: this is a good example of the collaboration: in the UK it is easy to experiment and bring concepts together. In China there are many opportunities to deploy large scale infrastructure. The collaboration allows things to be achieved which could not easily be achieved by either group on its own 07:26:47 RSSAgent, pointer 07:27:02 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 07:27:09 RRSAgent, pointer 07:27:09 See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-irc#T07-27-09 07:27:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:27:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html chunming 07:27:40 [pause for break] 07:38:12 for those who want to print the boarding pass, please send e-mail with PDF borading pass to me: hucm@w3.org 07:58:07 scribe: chunming 07:58:19 Topic: Subsetting 08:06:27 Jitao has joined #ceo-ld 08:06:30 billroberts has joined #ceo-ld 08:08:45 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 08:09:06 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 08:12:05 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 08:13:47 Date for the demo - will be Wednesday 22nd June at 08:00 Ireland time. 08:14:01 Timing to be as convenient as possible for Chinese colleagues 08:14:33 summer time (GMT+1) 08:14:59 Therefore 15:00 Beijing Time 08:15:55 We should make sure that official invitations go to the relevant people so they can join in if they so wish. 08:16:59 phila: we have two items to discuss 08:17:26 ... subsetting, sharing ideas, find subset of coverages, what kind of things we need. 08:17:58 ... negatiation, big workload 08:18:25 ... and what's next, where's the next project 08:18:40 Topic: Future Projects 08:19:06 GB: think about application, the potential to delivery to scientists, more functional, that's the goal that i am concerning. 08:19:19 ... what data is make available. 08:19:39 ... climate changes, long term, world wide. 08:19:53 ... polutions, impact locally, and globally 08:20:17 ... how to provide fancy maps, eg. satallite maps 08:20:46 ... if we could use sharing data, showing the change from time to time, it will be valuable. 08:21:14 ... the demo we hope, globally capability to do clever things 08:22:32 ... in relation to global change issues, to build big application, and geo-relavent. 08:23:50 ... a really good demonstration, to see what is possible., June 22. then 6-8 month , come to a serious proposal. 08:25:11 GB: it will take 5 years or longer that really products will using the coverage data standards. the question is moving into right direction. 08:26:10 DM: global earth observation(?) , will on board. 08:26:18 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:26:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 08:26:35 GB: in paris conference, world health organization, ... lots of organization want to join. 08:28:07 Zakim has left #ceo-ld 08:28:22 DM: how to dive into standards things, the demon of coverages, may help the government to answer the application questions on the data 08:28:40 Zakim has joined #ceo-ld 08:28:54 GB: key things is , small but ambitious, to support future development. 08:29:16 DM: quite diverse range of domains. 08:29:33 ... with research orgs, government. 08:29:46 ... pick common languages 08:32:12 Bill: @@@ 08:33:06 DM: current push from world bank, data issues. meeting on washington on Monday. 08:33:34 phila: focusing on satellite, where is this project comes. 08:34:52 Jeremy: easy to use as the usb stick. really easy to use. 08:35:16 ... we are doing is to make it easy to use. 08:35:24 ... tracking what have been done to the data 08:37:06 Jeremy: publishing of the data should be locally, from local to region level, to global level 08:37:17 ... it also could be decentralized 08:37:40 ... people have to subscribe to themself. 08:37:56 ... big challenges here. 08:38:35 phila: @@@ 08:39:17 s/@@@/Who else do we need in the new project? Who from China? Who from elsewhere? 08:39:35 DM: GEO, can't do it without them. Maybe try Stuart Minchin. 08:40:18 DM: 2nd round stage, merge into the data cubes. a long history, build query on the pixal. 08:40:55 Bill: data cube structure. 08:41:11 ... on the slicing of data 08:41:46 phila: commercial person could be involved, to make money 08:42:32 Bill: tools, not only scientific research, but also policy. to get more information to do that. 08:42:49 ... offer commercial services 08:43:42 GB: december, international data science, policy for science, the big thing is "open data" 08:44:22 ... next year, pushing government, research concils, to an open databases. 08:44:31 ... something is moving to the same direction. 08:45:00 Bill: space @@@ 08:45:18 DM: involved in London meeting, simon? 08:45:36 Phila: jianhui, guoqing, what's you think most useful things to do next? 08:46:18 jianhui: NSF of China, and UK Newton foundation, may sometimes support the collaboration projects in china and UK 08:46:41 guoqing: funding is always the problem 08:47:24 geoffrey has joined #ceo-ld 08:47:28 ... china is changging the funding policy, NSF of China is the channel, any topic could be submit as the proposal. We could have a proposal on coverage, but not guarantee on if get or not 08:47:44 ... there are lots of call 08:48:12 ... new policy conduct a very big one project from MOST (ministry of science and technology) 08:48:29 ... also small funding for the institute 08:48:57 ... try to integrate of our idea, apply for the institute funding internally. 08:49:25 Phila: What's you want to achieve. 08:49:45 guoqing: jianhui and chunming , we talked about the topic on coverage data store from NSF 08:51:23 Bill: the possible international funding. 08:52:37 GB: important issues - water, environmental, ... what need to be done. 08:53:08 phila: HTTP range functions, possible already support what we want 08:53:28 ... coverage 5 megabytes 08:53:44 Maik: it is useful on the data download? 08:53:58 phila: about chunking data 08:54:14 jeromy: we have whole coverage, and need to support download. 08:54:28 ... we need to download a piece of data in it. 08:54:37 ... to use the URL to fetch the slice data 08:54:59 phila: even the slice is too big, i think HTTP range would be used. 08:55:30 Maik: not just APIs but @@@, to use range functions. not sure if it is the right use. 08:57:05 Jeremy: URI to the coverage, query primitives, saying for x from 0-10, y from 9-6, t from 7-14, the api is currently simple, but a good start 08:58:02 dmckenzie has joined #ceo-ld 08:58:42 Information on Geoscience Australia Datacube from earlier discussion http://www.datacube.org.au/ 08:58:53 http://www.ga.gov.au/about/what-we-do/projects/earth-observation-and-satellite-imagery/australian-geoscience-data-cube 08:59:13 [Maik to show coverage JSON restful api core specificatoin] 08:59:19 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 09:00:41 Maik: time, according to RDF 3339 09:01:15 ... opensearchtime 09:02:34 maik: index based dimension , or subset index. 09:02:40 ... collection of the coverages. 09:03:05 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 09:03:56 phila: allow the dataset provider to define the slices? 09:08:00 [maik show API description] 09:08:29 client use the api to describe the range on each dimension. like x[start:stop:step] for grid coverage 09:11:38 phila: server side code handling a very big set of coverage 09:13:23 ... the template define the pattern of query 09:15:22 Jeremy: if you want to reliably get the same data (using a dedicate URI)... 09:16:04 phila: that is the identifying (of the data). 09:16:17 phila: coverage link data? 09:17:45 bill: if we want a polygon of beijing 09:19:47 ... how do we define it in the URL 09:20:10 phila: subsetting is still an open issue. 09:20:21 ... computation complexity 09:21:11 Maik: boundary handling. two time dimensions. 09:22:37 topic: Wrap Up 09:22:37 jeremy: @@@ 09:23:14 scribe: phila 09:23:24 s/@@@/rather than have one service that doies index based and polygon - have 2 separate services, on ethat generates the bbox coords that can become part of the index-based query 09:24:00 s/on ethat generates/one that generates/ 09:24:31 Bill: A job I'm not volunteering for is to manage the process of chasing the work on the to do list. 09:25:41 Phil to communicate with Chinese colleagues on progress throughout coming two months 09:26:02 Denise to work on logistics to support that, esp connectivity 09:26:52 JT: Standarising hte RESTful API is future work. 09:27:12 ... We are testing the coverageJSON aspects 09:27:17 s/hte/the/ 09:27:57 JT: We are also pushing the coverageJSON encoding as a formal encoding as a Coverage Service encoding within OGC 09:29:43 JT: In London, GB had the idea of a citizen science game. That's something we could potentially think about. 09:30:05 GB: Citizen Science is seen as a route in... 09:30:54 Topic: Who's Doing What? 09:30:56 RADI 09:30:56 - 2 new common products - NVDI & Leaf Area Index (HDF5 & GeoTIFF) 09:30:56 - Collaborative development of the RESTful API 09:30:56 - Provided with Lat/Lon WGS84 09:30:56 CNIC 09:30:58 - Library that converts HDF5 & GeoTIFF to CoverageJSON + REST API 09:31:00 - Implement RESTful API to expose the CoverageJSON content 09:31:02 - Handle/process CoverageJSON that is moderately too large for browser 09:31:04 - Collaborative development of the RESTful API 09:31:06 - Lat/Lon WGS84 09:31:08 - Host on the Geospatial Data Cloud 09:31:10 University of Reading 09:31:12 - Provide spec for CoverageJSON 09:31:14 - Implementation support to CNIC 09:31:14 https://github.com/neothemachine/floodit 09:31:16 - Integrate new features to the spec 09:31:18 - Collaborative development of the RESTful API 09:31:22 - Client application to support grid to grid comparison 09:31:24 Beihang 09:31:26 - Investigate an independent application utilising services developed by CNIC & RADI 09:31:28 OGC 09:31:30 - Demonstration in Dublin TC 0800GMT time 22nd June 2016 09:31:32 - Registration and management of invitations 09:31:34 W3C 09:31:36 - Report 09:32:06 Topic: General 09:32:43 DM: I think there's scope for involvement in the NASA-backed hackathon. 09:33:21 GB: There's a game out soon where people can play out the scenario of Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets melting and the effect of flooding 09:35:39 guoqing has joined #ceo-ld 09:35:50 JT: Earlier on, people were interested in an overview of the MELODIES project - http://melodiesproject.eu/ 09:37:26 MaikRiechert: Talks through the Melodies website 09:41:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:41:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html chunming 09:55:51 phila has joined #ceo-ld 09:56:05 RRSAgent, generate minutes 09:56:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/28-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 10:03:16 RRSAgent, bye 10:03:16 I see no action items