15:43:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
15:43:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/26-annotation-irc
15:43:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:43:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
15:43:27 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:43:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:43:28 <trackbot> Date: 26 February 2016
15:43:46 <ivan> ivan has joined #annotation
15:44:02 <ivan> trackbot, start telcon
15:44:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:44:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
15:44:06 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:44:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:44:07 <trackbot> Date: 26 February 2016
15:44:25 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/CABevsUHPphbug7QnmHNfjiwcugFyJtGJGOERouHQXYZ5qfGxPw@mail.gmail.com
15:52:30 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
15:53:27 <azaroth> trackbot, start meeting
15:53:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:53:31 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
15:53:31 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:53:32 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:53:32 <trackbot> Date: 26 February 2016
15:53:36 <azaroth> Chair: Rob_Sanderson
15:53:41 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:53:47 <azaroth> Regrets+ Dan_Whaley
15:54:36 <azaroth> azaroth has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Feb/0292.html
15:55:41 <azaroth> TOPIC: Scribe Selection, Agenda Review, Announcements
15:59:35 <shepazu> present+ shepazu
15:59:46 <fjh> fjh has joined #annotation
15:59:54 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
15:59:56 <ivan> present+ ivan
16:00:14 <TimCole> present+ Tim_Cole
16:02:26 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
16:02:33 <Emrah_Guder> Emrah_Guder has joined #annotation
16:04:10 <azaroth> scribenick: TimCole
16:04:16 <azaroth> scribe: Tim_Cole
16:04:44 <TimCole> azaroth: Let's review agenda...
16:05:14 <TimCole> ... first logistics, then a few issues, then AOB
16:05:19 <TimCole> ... anything else?
16:05:30 <tbdinesh_> tbdinesh_ has joined #annotation
16:05:40 <TimCole> ... any announcements?
16:05:50 <azaroth> TOPIC: Minutes Approval
16:05:56 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #annotation
16:05:58 <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/02/19-annotation-minutes.html
16:06:12 <tbdinesh_> present+ tb_dinesh
16:06:16 <TimCole> RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/02/19-annotation-minutes.html
16:06:31 <azaroth> TOPIC: Logistics
16:06:35 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
16:06:40 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
16:06:45 <ivan> q+
16:06:48 <azaroth> Register: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/73180/anno-f2f-berlin-2016/
16:06:55 <TimCole> azaroth: Reminder. Please register for WG f2f using the link in the chat
16:06:58 <azaroth> Wiki: https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Meetings/F2F_Berlin_2016
16:07:09 <TimCole> ... also posting the link to the wiki page
16:07:15 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:07:30 <PaoloCiccarese> PaoloCiccarese has joined #annotation
16:07:42 <TimCole> ... even if not going, please complete the registration  questionaire so we know.
16:08:03 <TimCole> ivan: IAnnotate is posting a list of hotels recommended by MS, etc.
16:08:28 <davis_salisbury> davis_salisbury has joined #annotation
16:08:36 <TimCole> azaroth: we should make sure we get link and circulate...
16:08:39 <davis_salisbury> Present+ davis_salisbury
16:09:20 <PaoloCiccarese> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
16:09:26 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
16:09:34 <TimCole> ivan: Doug or I can do a work around for individuals.
16:10:10 <TimCole> ... if you can't get to questionaire, please send W3c user name to to Doug and Ivan
16:10:23 <azaroth> TOPIC: XPath Selector
16:10:36 <azaroth> Github: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/95
16:10:54 <azaroth> draft:  http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd2/#xpath-selector
16:11:21 <TimCole> azaroth: the issue is a proposal to add an XPath Selector
16:11:37 <azaroth> proposal: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/95#issuecomment-186344208
16:12:15 <TimCole> ... will let us use XPath within in DOM-based targets, including HTML
16:13:04 <fjh> q+
16:13:08 <ivan> +1 for it, it seems to be a no brainer...
16:13:10 <azaroth> ack fjh
16:13:12 <TimCole> azaroth: questions, comments
16:13:32 <TimCole> fjh: Does XPath have features that we want to exclude from being used as a Selector
16:13:50 <fjh> q-
16:13:55 <TimCole> azaroth: yes, functions could get messy
16:14:07 <shepazu> q+
16:14:25 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:14:27 <TimCole> ... but hesitation about restricting is that then implementers would have to shut down bits of the standard XPath libraries they want to use
16:15:02 <bigbluehat> shepazu: same difference
16:15:06 <TimCole> shepazu: if you want to do what fjh suggested, you could simply identify the parts of XPath implementers should use
16:15:21 <ivan> q+
16:15:25 <fjh> +1 to suggesting portions to use, otherwise at ‘your own risk’
16:15:28 <TimCole> ... that would not require implementers to shut down bits of XPath libraries
16:15:31 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:15:58 <TimCole> ivan: I don't know that we need to get into the issues about what parts of XPath to use
16:16:08 <shepazu> q+
16:16:09 <fjh> q+
16:16:12 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/
16:16:15 <TimCole> ... if implementers get over-complicated, that's their responsibility
16:16:18 <azaroth> (+1 to Ivan)
16:16:22 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:16:37 <azaroth> ack fjh
16:16:44 <TimCole> shepazu: but we do want to make sure that we have interoperability
16:16:49 <azaroth> q+
16:16:56 <azaroth> ack azaroth
16:16:58 <TimCole> fjh: at a minimum there should be a warning to use XPath intelligently
16:17:48 <TimCole> azaroth: trying to decide what we want people to use is overkill and could set precedent for CSS and other technologies that we want to use as selectors
16:18:46 <TimCole> ... we are not suggesting you don't do SVG animation when using SVG selector
16:18:54 <bigbluehat> +1 to our not curtailing what "XPath" means in our spec
16:18:59 <azaroth> q?
16:19:06 <TimCole> ... we took out a OA CG restriction on SVG selectors
16:19:23 <davis_salisbury> +1 to not curtailing
16:19:34 <tbdinesh_> +0
16:19:40 <fjh> fine with a warning and not curtailing
16:19:41 <shepazu> -0
16:20:10 <PaoloCiccarese> -not sure what the danger is
16:20:21 <TimCole> azaroth: a warning for selectors like XPath, CSS, SVG seems a reasonable compromise
16:20:23 <shepazu> (the danger is lack of interoperability)
16:21:16 <azaroth> PROPOSAL:  Accept XPathSelector, as written up in the Editor's Draft ; add a warning to CSS, XPath and SVG to use as intended
16:21:24 <azaroth> +1
16:21:28 <tbdinesh_> should we have page authoring guidelines for well behavedness re annotations
16:21:33 <ivan> +1
16:21:45 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:21:48 <fjh> +1
16:21:49 <takeshi> +1
16:22:11 <davis_salisbury> +1
16:22:21 <TimCole> RESOLUTION: Accept XPathSelector, as written up in the Editor's Draft ; add a warning to CSS, XPath and SVG to use as intended
16:22:32 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:22:32 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/26-annotation-irc#T16-22-32
16:23:17 <azaroth> TOPIC: Range Selector
16:23:33 <azaroth> Github: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/153
16:23:43 <azaroth> Draft: http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd2/#range-selector
16:24:20 <TimCole> azaroth: this selector has a start point and end point (described by individual selectors) and everything in between is selected.
16:24:34 <TimCole> ... this aligns well with how ranges are done in DOM
16:24:51 <TimCole> ... makes it easy for implementers familiar with this use in DOM
16:25:16 <TimCole> ... still have time to remove from draft a little further on if new concerns arise
16:25:20 <ivan> +1
16:25:20 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:25:22 <TimCole> ... any comments?
16:25:25 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:25:48 <TimCole> PaoloCiccarese: we had a long discussion about these in the CG.
16:26:23 <TimCole> ... if we look at example #27, does this suggest range selector replaces existing selectors?
16:26:36 <azaroth> Github: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/177
16:26:41 <TimCole> azaroth: now it is an addition, not a replacement, but see issue #177...
16:27:03 <uskudarli> uskudarli has joined #annotation
16:27:19 <TimCole> ... let's see what people think about range first, then look at possible merging
16:27:37 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Accept RangeSelector as written in editor's draft
16:27:39 <ivan> +1
16:27:41 <azaroth> +1
16:27:41 <bigbluehat> +1
16:27:43 <davis_salisbury> +1
16:27:44 <takeshi> +1
16:27:53 <fjh> +1
16:28:07 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:28:14 <TimCole> RESOLUTION: Accept RangeSelector as written in editor's draft
16:28:17 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:28:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/26-annotation-irc#T16-28-17
16:28:57 <TimCole> Topic: issue #177
16:29:09 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/177
16:29:24 <TimCole> azaroth: we now have 2 ways to select the same span of text (second is using range selector)
16:29:24 <ivan> q+
16:29:42 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:29:46 <TimCole> ... do we need both?
16:29:49 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:30:14 <TimCole> ivan: I think text position selector will be widely used and therefore important to keep
16:30:25 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:30:32 <bigbluehat> +1 to leaving it as is
16:30:33 <TimCole> ... but duplication worth it to keep this very simple approach.
16:31:09 <TimCole> PaoloCiccarese: Text miners need the less verbose option when you doing annotations at scale
16:31:24 <TimCole> ... Similar issue with data selector
16:31:52 <TimCole> ... so I am okay with keeping text selector because of compactness, not sure we want 3.
16:32:32 <TimCole> azaroth: difference between text pos selector and data pos selector is that one works on underlying (e.g., without tags)
16:32:54 <azaroth> q?
16:32:56 <fjh> +1 to leave as is
16:33:09 <TimCole> ... possibly we could merge with a flag to indicate whether we are working on the text stream or 'binary' stream
16:33:24 <TimCole> ivan: would prefer to keep separate, i.e., leave as it is
16:33:54 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Keep TextPosition, DataPosition and Range Selectors despite some overlap
16:34:02 <TimCole> PaoloCiccarese: agree the way you interpert is different, so merging might make worse than having overlap
16:34:06 <azaroth> +1
16:34:06 <bigbluehat> +1
16:34:06 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:34:08 <ivan> +1
16:34:13 <takeshi> +1
16:34:14 <TimCole> +1
16:34:15 <davis_salisbury> +1
16:34:40 <TimCole> RESOLUTION: Keep TextPosition, DataPosition and Range Selectors despite some overlap
16:34:42 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:34:42 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/26-annotation-irc#T16-34-42
16:35:05 <azaroth> TOPIC: Dates in the model
16:35:09 <azaroth> Github: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/141
16:35:27 <azaroth> Draft: http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd2/#lifecycle-information
16:35:45 <azaroth> Draft: http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/vocab/wd/#json-ld-considerations
16:35:49 <TimCole> azaroth: addressed at 2 points in the draft
16:36:11 <TimCole> ... useful to look at JSON-LD context document which lays out how we've done the mapping
16:36:39 <TimCole> ... issue - XSD dateTime requires you to have time with time zone
16:36:56 <TimCole> ... proposal is to use the W3C Date Time Format
16:37:25 <TimCole> ... one catch is that Prov requires XSD DateTime
16:38:21 <TimCole> ... so since we already accepted using W3C DTF, the implication is that we are going to change generated (et al.) to map to AS rather than Prov
16:38:32 <ivan> q+
16:38:51 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:38:57 <TimCole> ... so proposed changes to our context document
16:39:21 <TimCole> ivan: I don't fully agree with how you got there, but okay with end result
16:40:01 <TimCole> ... that being said, I don't think that because we use labels from an external vocab we have to use their data types
16:40:45 <TimCole> azaroth: ivan is saying that we could continue to map to Prov and still use W3C DTF
16:41:07 <TimCole> ivan: yes, I don't think it is necessary to require XSD DateTime because Prov does
16:41:22 <TimCole> ... but if we like AS for other reasons, that's fine
16:41:31 <azaroth> q?
16:41:41 <TimCole> azaroth: yes, AS does make sense here, unless others see it differently
16:42:01 <TimCole> ... any one want to retain these two mappings to Prov?
16:42:09 <ivan> +1
16:42:22 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Replace prov terms with terms from other vocabularies (dcterms, activity streams)
16:42:24 <TimCole> +1
16:42:30 <azaroth> +1
16:42:32 <ivan> +1
16:42:38 <davis_salisbury> +1
16:43:08 <tbdinesh_> +1
16:43:09 <TimCole> azaroth: this is only an issue for the RDF stack users (JSON unchanged)
16:43:17 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:43:17 <fjh> +1
16:43:24 <takeshi> +1
16:43:25 <TimCole> RESOLUTION: Replace prov terms with terms from other vocabularies (dcterms, activity streams)
16:43:31 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
16:43:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/26-annotation-irc#T16-43-31
16:43:54 <azaroth> TOPIC: Multiple Selectors, States
16:44:05 <azaroth> Github: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/93
16:44:15 <azaroth> Draft: http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd2/#sub-selection
16:44:25 <TimCole> azaroth: primary issue is 93, but see also see 135
16:45:04 <TimCole> ... last time we were leaning towards proposal to use subSelector better than status quo
16:45:23 <TimCole> ... proposal preferred to inverse alternative
16:45:45 <TimCole> ... suggestion that it was unnecessary
16:46:04 <TimCole> ... proposal says to write up subSelector proposal and then discuss as new issue whether to take it out
16:46:09 <TimCole> q+
16:46:22 <azaroth> ack TimCole
16:46:35 <TimCole> TimCole: OA CG added multiplicity late to reduce ambiguity and reduce opportunities for misunderstanding
16:46:59 <TimCole>     ... helped that same construct could be used for selectors and resources used as targets / bodies
16:47:02 <TimCole>    ... Given reconsideration of multiplicity in general, I am okay with the idea of replacing Choice,
16:47:13 <TimCole> 	... does add ambiguity in that you have no way certain to identify the preferred alternative,
16:47:34 <TimCole> 	... but this seems an acceptable amount of ambiguity
16:47:43 <TimCole> 	... Similarly I am okay with replacing list with nesting
16:47:44 <azaroth> Agree that we've lost preferred alternative for choice
16:47:54 <TimCole> 	... However, if I understand correctly, subSelector and subState are intended to be recursive
16:48:04 <TimCole> 	... so why not just adjust the definition of selector and state to allow recursion and avoid 2 new properties
16:48:16 <TimCole> 	... the objects that can appear as selector and subSelector values (i.e., their range) is identical
16:48:25 <TimCole> 	... the only difference is in domain, the domain of selector is SpecificResource,
16:48:38 <TimCole> 	... while the domain of subSelector is essentially selector or subSelector.
16:48:49 <TimCole> 	... I would rather see us simply broaden the definition of selector and state to allow recursion
16:48:59 <TimCole> 	... the only real advantage of the subSelector / subState properties is it makes clear that other
16:49:09 <TimCole> 	... specifiers do not nest. This can be stated. And if we ever change our mind, no new properties need
16:49:20 <TimCole> 	... to be added, just up date the definitions to allow.
16:49:31 <TimCole> 	... The proposed solution seems to leave open the door for considering this idea of simply allowing
16:49:40 <TimCole> 	... nested recursion of selector and state, but if we get to the point of a CR with subSelector and subState
16:49:45 <ivan> q+
16:49:49 <TimCole> 	... we will have in essence precluded doing this since the sub-properties will by then be in general use
16:49:51 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:49:57 <TimCole> 	... so I in favor of the proposed solution if we very quickly revisit whether we need explicit new
16:50:05 <TimCole> 	... properties or can make do by simply adjusting the definition of selector and state
16:50:30 <TimCole> ivan: we have agreed to flag a featrre as 'at risk'
16:50:53 <TimCole> ... so we have the right to remove the feature before going to the next step
16:51:23 <TimCole> ... but regardless I don't understand for not having
16:51:49 <ivan> s/featrre/feature/
16:52:13 <azaroth> q+
16:52:20 <azaroth> ack azaroth
16:53:01 <TimCole> azaroth: one reason to have is to differentiate selector and state as potentially being chained.
16:53:15 <TimCole> ... but also the semantics are a little different
16:53:56 <TimCole> ... so you are applying the subSelector to a result (not made explicit) rather than on a source
16:54:45 <TimCole> ... not lying down in the road, but preference is to have a different term to make semantics clear and also to differentiate selector or state from other specifier
16:54:51 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:55:13 <PaoloCiccarese> q-
16:55:13 <davis_salisbury> Sorry folks, need to go.
16:55:31 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:55:36 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
16:56:05 <TimCole> azaroth: not entirely sure what Nick was after, but if Nick (or Tim) wants to open an issue about need for subSelector and SubState, can do so.
16:56:22 <TimCole> PaoloCiccarese: let's make more concrete
16:56:30 <TimCole> ... assume a 3-D model
16:56:44 <TimCole> ... assume I rotate the model (State?)
16:57:09 <TimCole> ... now I apply a subSelector to select the region of the rotated view
16:57:38 <azaroth> oa:refinedBy ?
16:57:39 <TimCole> ... we could have called it refiner instead of subSelector
16:58:12 <TimCole> azaroth: another example is selecting inside a zip file
16:58:47 <TimCole> PaoloCiccarese: Data is also a good use case, since it may take multiple steps to find the right granular
16:58:51 <TimCole> q+
16:59:14 <PaoloCiccarese> I would not
16:59:33 <azaroth> PROPOSAL: Accept overall model, change subSelector/subState to refinedBy
16:59:37 <PaoloCiccarese> +1
16:59:39 <azaroth> +1
16:59:41 <TimCole> TimCole: if we go refinedBy, we would not need separatre subSelector and subState
16:59:41 <ivan> +1
16:59:44 <TimCole> +1
16:59:45 <tbdinesh_> +1
16:59:51 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
16:59:56 <azaroth> ack TimCole
16:59:59 <azaroth> ack PaoloCiccarese
17:00:27 <TimCole> PaoloCiccarese: just to confirm, I can have a chain of them (recursion)
17:00:34 <TimCole> azaroth: yes
17:01:03 <TimCole> RESOLUTION: Accept overall model, change subSelector/subState to refinedBy
17:01:16 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
17:01:16 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/02/26-annotation-irc#T17-01-16
17:02:09 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:02:09 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:02:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sandersion, Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole, Benjamin_Young, Jacob_Jett, shepazu, davis_salisbury, Paolo_Ciccarese,
17:02:12 <Zakim> ... Ben_De_Meester, Chris_Birk, TB_Dinesh, Takeshi_Kanai, Randall_Leeds, Dan_Whaley, Susan, Uskudarli, !, Nick_Stenning, Suzan_Uskudarli
17:02:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/26-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
17:02:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:02:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items