IRC log of annotation on 2016-02-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:43:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #annotation
15:43:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:43:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:43:27 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2666
15:43:27 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:43:28 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:43:28 [trackbot]
Date: 26 February 2016
15:43:46 [ivan]
ivan has joined #annotation
15:44:02 [ivan]
trackbot, start telcon
15:44:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:44:06 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2666
15:44:06 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:44:07 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:44:07 [trackbot]
Date: 26 February 2016
15:44:25 [ivan]
15:52:30 [azaroth]
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15:53:27 [azaroth]
trackbot, start meeting
15:53:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:53:31 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2666
15:53:31 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:53:32 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:53:32 [trackbot]
Date: 26 February 2016
15:53:36 [azaroth]
Chair: Rob_Sanderson
15:53:41 [azaroth]
Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:53:47 [azaroth]
Regrets+ Dan_Whaley
15:54:36 [azaroth]
azaroth has changed the topic to: Agenda:
15:55:41 [azaroth]
TOPIC: Scribe Selection, Agenda Review, Announcements
15:59:35 [shepazu]
present+ shepazu
15:59:46 [fjh]
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15:59:54 [TimCole]
TimCole has joined #annotation
15:59:56 [ivan]
present+ ivan
16:00:14 [TimCole]
present+ Tim_Cole
16:02:26 [tbdinesh]
tbdinesh has joined #annotation
16:02:33 [Emrah_Guder]
Emrah_Guder has joined #annotation
16:04:10 [azaroth]
scribenick: TimCole
16:04:16 [azaroth]
scribe: Tim_Cole
16:04:44 [TimCole]
azaroth: Let's review agenda...
16:05:14 [TimCole]
... first logistics, then a few issues, then AOB
16:05:19 [TimCole]
... anything else?
16:05:30 [tbdinesh_]
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16:05:40 [TimCole]
... any announcements?
16:05:50 [azaroth]
TOPIC: Minutes Approval
16:05:56 [takeshi]
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16:05:58 [azaroth]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:
16:06:12 [tbdinesh_]
present+ tb_dinesh
16:06:16 [TimCole]
RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:
16:06:31 [azaroth]
TOPIC: Logistics
16:06:35 [takeshi]
Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
16:06:40 [bigbluehat]
Present+ Benjamin_Young
16:06:45 [ivan]
16:06:48 [azaroth]
16:06:55 [TimCole]
azaroth: Reminder. Please register for WG f2f using the link in the chat
16:06:58 [azaroth]
16:07:09 [TimCole]
... also posting the link to the wiki page
16:07:15 [azaroth]
ack ivan
16:07:30 [PaoloCiccarese]
PaoloCiccarese has joined #annotation
16:07:42 [TimCole]
... even if not going, please complete the registration questionaire so we know.
16:08:03 [TimCole]
ivan: IAnnotate is posting a list of hotels recommended by MS, etc.
16:08:28 [davis_salisbury]
davis_salisbury has joined #annotation
16:08:36 [TimCole]
azaroth: we should make sure we get link and circulate...
16:08:39 [davis_salisbury]
Present+ davis_salisbury
16:09:20 [PaoloCiccarese]
Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
16:09:26 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
16:09:34 [TimCole]
ivan: Doug or I can do a work around for individuals.
16:10:10 [TimCole]
... if you can't get to questionaire, please send W3c user name to to Doug and Ivan
16:10:23 [azaroth]
TOPIC: XPath Selector
16:10:36 [azaroth]
16:10:54 [azaroth]
16:11:21 [TimCole]
azaroth: the issue is a proposal to add an XPath Selector
16:11:37 [azaroth]
16:12:15 [TimCole]
... will let us use XPath within in DOM-based targets, including HTML
16:13:04 [fjh]
16:13:08 [ivan]
+1 for it, it seems to be a no brainer...
16:13:10 [azaroth]
ack fjh
16:13:12 [TimCole]
azaroth: questions, comments
16:13:32 [TimCole]
fjh: Does XPath have features that we want to exclude from being used as a Selector
16:13:50 [fjh]
16:13:55 [TimCole]
azaroth: yes, functions could get messy
16:14:07 [shepazu]
16:14:25 [azaroth]
ack shepazu
16:14:27 [TimCole]
... but hesitation about restricting is that then implementers would have to shut down bits of the standard XPath libraries they want to use
16:15:02 [bigbluehat]
shepazu: same difference
16:15:06 [TimCole]
shepazu: if you want to do what fjh suggested, you could simply identify the parts of XPath implementers should use
16:15:21 [ivan]
16:15:25 [fjh]
+1 to suggesting portions to use, otherwise at ‘your own risk’
16:15:28 [TimCole]
... that would not require implementers to shut down bits of XPath libraries
16:15:31 [azaroth]
ack ivan
16:15:58 [TimCole]
ivan: I don't know that we need to get into the issues about what parts of XPath to use
16:16:08 [shepazu]
16:16:09 [fjh]
16:16:12 [bigbluehat]
16:16:15 [TimCole]
... if implementers get over-complicated, that's their responsibility
16:16:18 [azaroth]
(+1 to Ivan)
16:16:22 [azaroth]
ack shepazu
16:16:37 [azaroth]
ack fjh
16:16:44 [TimCole]
shepazu: but we do want to make sure that we have interoperability
16:16:49 [azaroth]
16:16:56 [azaroth]
ack azaroth
16:16:58 [TimCole]
fjh: at a minimum there should be a warning to use XPath intelligently
16:17:48 [TimCole]
azaroth: trying to decide what we want people to use is overkill and could set precedent for CSS and other technologies that we want to use as selectors
16:18:46 [TimCole]
... we are not suggesting you don't do SVG animation when using SVG selector
16:18:54 [bigbluehat]
+1 to our not curtailing what "XPath" means in our spec
16:18:59 [azaroth]
16:19:06 [TimCole]
... we took out a OA CG restriction on SVG selectors
16:19:23 [davis_salisbury]
+1 to not curtailing
16:19:34 [tbdinesh_]
16:19:40 [fjh]
fine with a warning and not curtailing
16:19:41 [shepazu]
16:20:10 [PaoloCiccarese]
-not sure what the danger is
16:20:21 [TimCole]
azaroth: a warning for selectors like XPath, CSS, SVG seems a reasonable compromise
16:20:23 [shepazu]
(the danger is lack of interoperability)
16:21:16 [azaroth]
PROPOSAL: Accept XPathSelector, as written up in the Editor's Draft ; add a warning to CSS, XPath and SVG to use as intended
16:21:24 [azaroth]
16:21:28 [tbdinesh_]
should we have page authoring guidelines for well behavedness re annotations
16:21:33 [ivan]
16:21:45 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:21:48 [fjh]
16:21:49 [takeshi]
16:22:11 [davis_salisbury]
16:22:21 [TimCole]
RESOLUTION: Accept XPathSelector, as written up in the Editor's Draft ; add a warning to CSS, XPath and SVG to use as intended
16:22:32 [ivan]
rrsagent, pointer?
16:22:32 [RRSAgent]
16:23:17 [azaroth]
TOPIC: Range Selector
16:23:33 [azaroth]
16:23:43 [azaroth]
16:24:20 [TimCole]
azaroth: this selector has a start point and end point (described by individual selectors) and everything in between is selected.
16:24:34 [TimCole]
... this aligns well with how ranges are done in DOM
16:24:51 [TimCole]
... makes it easy for implementers familiar with this use in DOM
16:25:16 [TimCole]
... still have time to remove from draft a little further on if new concerns arise
16:25:20 [ivan]
16:25:20 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:25:22 [TimCole]
... any comments?
16:25:25 [azaroth]
ack PaoloCiccarese
16:25:48 [TimCole]
PaoloCiccarese: we had a long discussion about these in the CG.
16:26:23 [TimCole]
... if we look at example #27, does this suggest range selector replaces existing selectors?
16:26:36 [azaroth]
16:26:41 [TimCole]
azaroth: now it is an addition, not a replacement, but see issue #177...
16:27:03 [uskudarli]
uskudarli has joined #annotation
16:27:19 [TimCole]
... let's see what people think about range first, then look at possible merging
16:27:37 [azaroth]
PROPOSAL: Accept RangeSelector as written in editor's draft
16:27:39 [ivan]
16:27:41 [azaroth]
16:27:41 [bigbluehat]
16:27:43 [davis_salisbury]
16:27:44 [takeshi]
16:27:53 [fjh]
16:28:07 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:28:14 [TimCole]
RESOLUTION: Accept RangeSelector as written in editor's draft
16:28:17 [ivan]
rrsagent, pointer?
16:28:17 [RRSAgent]
16:28:57 [TimCole]
Topic: issue #177
16:29:09 [ivan]
16:29:24 [TimCole]
azaroth: we now have 2 ways to select the same span of text (second is using range selector)
16:29:24 [ivan]
16:29:42 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:29:46 [TimCole]
... do we need both?
16:29:49 [azaroth]
ack ivan
16:30:14 [TimCole]
ivan: I think text position selector will be widely used and therefore important to keep
16:30:25 [azaroth]
ack PaoloCiccarese
16:30:32 [bigbluehat]
+1 to leaving it as is
16:30:33 [TimCole]
... but duplication worth it to keep this very simple approach.
16:31:09 [TimCole]
PaoloCiccarese: Text miners need the less verbose option when you doing annotations at scale
16:31:24 [TimCole]
... Similar issue with data selector
16:31:52 [TimCole]
... so I am okay with keeping text selector because of compactness, not sure we want 3.
16:32:32 [TimCole]
azaroth: difference between text pos selector and data pos selector is that one works on underlying (e.g., without tags)
16:32:54 [azaroth]
16:32:56 [fjh]
+1 to leave as is
16:33:09 [TimCole]
... possibly we could merge with a flag to indicate whether we are working on the text stream or 'binary' stream
16:33:24 [TimCole]
ivan: would prefer to keep separate, i.e., leave as it is
16:33:54 [azaroth]
PROPOSAL: Keep TextPosition, DataPosition and Range Selectors despite some overlap
16:34:02 [TimCole]
PaoloCiccarese: agree the way you interpert is different, so merging might make worse than having overlap
16:34:06 [azaroth]
16:34:06 [bigbluehat]
16:34:06 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:34:08 [ivan]
16:34:13 [takeshi]
16:34:14 [TimCole]
16:34:15 [davis_salisbury]
16:34:40 [TimCole]
RESOLUTION: Keep TextPosition, DataPosition and Range Selectors despite some overlap
16:34:42 [ivan]
rrsagent, pointer?
16:34:42 [RRSAgent]
16:35:05 [azaroth]
TOPIC: Dates in the model
16:35:09 [azaroth]
16:35:27 [azaroth]
16:35:45 [azaroth]
16:35:49 [TimCole]
azaroth: addressed at 2 points in the draft
16:36:11 [TimCole]
... useful to look at JSON-LD context document which lays out how we've done the mapping
16:36:39 [TimCole]
... issue - XSD dateTime requires you to have time with time zone
16:36:56 [TimCole]
... proposal is to use the W3C Date Time Format
16:37:25 [TimCole]
... one catch is that Prov requires XSD DateTime
16:38:21 [TimCole]
... so since we already accepted using W3C DTF, the implication is that we are going to change generated (et al.) to map to AS rather than Prov
16:38:32 [ivan]
16:38:51 [azaroth]
ack ivan
16:38:57 [TimCole]
... so proposed changes to our context document
16:39:21 [TimCole]
ivan: I don't fully agree with how you got there, but okay with end result
16:40:01 [TimCole]
... that being said, I don't think that because we use labels from an external vocab we have to use their data types
16:40:45 [TimCole]
azaroth: ivan is saying that we could continue to map to Prov and still use W3C DTF
16:41:07 [TimCole]
ivan: yes, I don't think it is necessary to require XSD DateTime because Prov does
16:41:22 [TimCole]
... but if we like AS for other reasons, that's fine
16:41:31 [azaroth]
16:41:41 [TimCole]
azaroth: yes, AS does make sense here, unless others see it differently
16:42:01 [TimCole]
... any one want to retain these two mappings to Prov?
16:42:09 [ivan]
16:42:22 [azaroth]
PROPOSAL: Replace prov terms with terms from other vocabularies (dcterms, activity streams)
16:42:24 [TimCole]
16:42:30 [azaroth]
16:42:32 [ivan]
16:42:38 [davis_salisbury]
16:43:08 [tbdinesh_]
16:43:09 [TimCole]
azaroth: this is only an issue for the RDF stack users (JSON unchanged)
16:43:17 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:43:17 [fjh]
16:43:24 [takeshi]
16:43:25 [TimCole]
RESOLUTION: Replace prov terms with terms from other vocabularies (dcterms, activity streams)
16:43:31 [ivan]
rrsagent, pointer?
16:43:31 [RRSAgent]
16:43:54 [azaroth]
TOPIC: Multiple Selectors, States
16:44:05 [azaroth]
16:44:15 [azaroth]
16:44:25 [TimCole]
azaroth: primary issue is 93, but see also see 135
16:45:04 [TimCole]
... last time we were leaning towards proposal to use subSelector better than status quo
16:45:23 [TimCole]
... proposal preferred to inverse alternative
16:45:45 [TimCole]
... suggestion that it was unnecessary
16:46:04 [TimCole]
... proposal says to write up subSelector proposal and then discuss as new issue whether to take it out
16:46:09 [TimCole]
16:46:22 [azaroth]
ack TimCole
16:46:35 [TimCole]
TimCole: OA CG added multiplicity late to reduce ambiguity and reduce opportunities for misunderstanding
16:46:59 [TimCole]
... helped that same construct could be used for selectors and resources used as targets / bodies
16:47:02 [TimCole]
... Given reconsideration of multiplicity in general, I am okay with the idea of replacing Choice,
16:47:13 [TimCole]
... does add ambiguity in that you have no way certain to identify the preferred alternative,
16:47:34 [TimCole]
... but this seems an acceptable amount of ambiguity
16:47:43 [TimCole]
... Similarly I am okay with replacing list with nesting
16:47:44 [azaroth]
Agree that we've lost preferred alternative for choice
16:47:54 [TimCole]
... However, if I understand correctly, subSelector and subState are intended to be recursive
16:48:04 [TimCole]
... so why not just adjust the definition of selector and state to allow recursion and avoid 2 new properties
16:48:16 [TimCole]
... the objects that can appear as selector and subSelector values (i.e., their range) is identical
16:48:25 [TimCole]
... the only difference is in domain, the domain of selector is SpecificResource,
16:48:38 [TimCole]
... while the domain of subSelector is essentially selector or subSelector.
16:48:49 [TimCole]
... I would rather see us simply broaden the definition of selector and state to allow recursion
16:48:59 [TimCole]
... the only real advantage of the subSelector / subState properties is it makes clear that other
16:49:09 [TimCole]
... specifiers do not nest. This can be stated. And if we ever change our mind, no new properties need
16:49:20 [TimCole]
... to be added, just up date the definitions to allow.
16:49:31 [TimCole]
... The proposed solution seems to leave open the door for considering this idea of simply allowing
16:49:40 [TimCole]
... nested recursion of selector and state, but if we get to the point of a CR with subSelector and subState
16:49:45 [ivan]
16:49:49 [TimCole]
... we will have in essence precluded doing this since the sub-properties will by then be in general use
16:49:51 [azaroth]
ack ivan
16:49:57 [TimCole]
... so I in favor of the proposed solution if we very quickly revisit whether we need explicit new
16:50:05 [TimCole]
... properties or can make do by simply adjusting the definition of selector and state
16:50:30 [TimCole]
ivan: we have agreed to flag a featrre as 'at risk'
16:50:53 [TimCole]
... so we have the right to remove the feature before going to the next step
16:51:23 [TimCole]
... but regardless I don't understand for not having
16:51:49 [ivan]
16:52:13 [azaroth]
16:52:20 [azaroth]
ack azaroth
16:53:01 [TimCole]
azaroth: one reason to have is to differentiate selector and state as potentially being chained.
16:53:15 [TimCole]
... but also the semantics are a little different
16:53:56 [TimCole]
... so you are applying the subSelector to a result (not made explicit) rather than on a source
16:54:45 [TimCole]
... not lying down in the road, but preference is to have a different term to make semantics clear and also to differentiate selector or state from other specifier
16:54:51 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:55:13 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:55:13 [davis_salisbury]
Sorry folks, need to go.
16:55:31 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:55:36 [azaroth]
ack PaoloCiccarese
16:56:05 [TimCole]
azaroth: not entirely sure what Nick was after, but if Nick (or Tim) wants to open an issue about need for subSelector and SubState, can do so.
16:56:22 [TimCole]
PaoloCiccarese: let's make more concrete
16:56:30 [TimCole]
... assume a 3-D model
16:56:44 [TimCole]
... assume I rotate the model (State?)
16:57:09 [TimCole]
... now I apply a subSelector to select the region of the rotated view
16:57:38 [azaroth]
oa:refinedBy ?
16:57:39 [TimCole]
... we could have called it refiner instead of subSelector
16:58:12 [TimCole]
azaroth: another example is selecting inside a zip file
16:58:47 [TimCole]
PaoloCiccarese: Data is also a good use case, since it may take multiple steps to find the right granular
16:58:51 [TimCole]
16:59:14 [PaoloCiccarese]
I would not
16:59:33 [azaroth]
PROPOSAL: Accept overall model, change subSelector/subState to refinedBy
16:59:37 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:59:39 [azaroth]
16:59:41 [TimCole]
TimCole: if we go refinedBy, we would not need separatre subSelector and subState
16:59:41 [ivan]
16:59:44 [TimCole]
16:59:45 [tbdinesh_]
16:59:51 [PaoloCiccarese]
16:59:56 [azaroth]
ack TimCole
16:59:59 [azaroth]
ack PaoloCiccarese
17:00:27 [TimCole]
PaoloCiccarese: just to confirm, I can have a chain of them (recursion)
17:00:34 [TimCole]
azaroth: yes
17:01:03 [TimCole]
RESOLUTION: Accept overall model, change subSelector/subState to refinedBy
17:01:16 [ivan]
rrsagent, pointer?
17:01:16 [RRSAgent]
17:02:09 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
17:02:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:02:09 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sandersion, Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole, Benjamin_Young, Jacob_Jett, shepazu, davis_salisbury, Paolo_Ciccarese,
17:02:12 [Zakim]
... Ben_De_Meester, Chris_Birk, TB_Dinesh, Takeshi_Kanai, Randall_Leeds, Dan_Whaley, Susan, Uskudarli, !, Nick_Stenning, Suzan_Uskudarli
17:02:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:02:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
17:02:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:02:18 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items