15:43:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:43:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/25-mobile-a11y-irc
15:43:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:43:30 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:43:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:43:32 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:43:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:43:33 <trackbot> Date: 25 February 2016
15:43:44 <Kim> chair: Kimberly_Patch
15:44:40 <Kim> agenda+  Review assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
15:44:41 <Kim> agenda+  Revisions to 2.5.3, M029 - https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-
15:44:43 <Kim> agenda+  Look at proposed 2.6
15:44:44 <Kim> agenda+  Look at proposed 2.7 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
15:44:46 <Kim> agenda+  Next steps –  next meeting February 25
15:48:12 <Kim> Regrets + John, Jan, Alan
16:02:57 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has joined #mobile-a11y
16:03:17 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
16:03:38 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
16:03:58 <patrick_h_lauke> random q: whenever i follow the webex password, the login form includes a "meeting password" field. i tried the meeting number, but that doesn't seem to be correct. am i missing something?
16:04:11 <patrick_h_lauke> "whenver i follow the webex LINK" i mean
16:04:17 <patrick_h_lauke> ah thank you
16:05:11 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
16:05:21 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
16:05:25 <AGarrison> AGarrison has joined #mobile-a11y
16:05:36 <AGarrison> Present+ Alistair
16:05:37 <Kim> zakim, next item
16:05:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments" taken up [from Kim]
16:05:49 <jeanne> present+ jeanne
16:05:55 <Detlev> present+
16:05:59 <Kim> Present+ Kim
16:06:06 <chriscm> present+ chriscm
16:06:35 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
16:06:46 <Kim> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
16:06:50 <Detlev> Kim: Looking at assignments page
16:07:29 <Detlev> Kim: Any Questions?
16:07:54 <Detlev> Mark: had no time to work on it
16:08:17 <Detlev> Chris: started draft of M029 - problem of link between Github and Wiki
16:08:45 <Detlev> Kim: might be easier to change stuff on the wiki
16:09:22 <Detlev> Chris: When following the links to github, most page are not touched
16:10:02 <Detlev> Kim: If you use Wiki make a note on assignmwents page
16:10:06 <Detlev> q+
16:10:38 <Detlev> Kim: The code is in Github already - so the link is needed
16:12:10 <Detlev> Detlev: explains link between github and readonly view
16:13:00 <Detlev> Kim: if you want on the wiki rather than on github, put a link to the wiki page at the end of the respective cell and eventually stuff can be moved to Github and that link can then be removed
16:13:03 <AGarrison> q+
16:13:12 <Detlev> q-
16:13:15 <patrick_h_lauke> (i believe M029 was the reason why i offered to join the call today...so if you have a link to the wiki version that was updated...)
16:13:45 <Detlev> Alistair: comment to M025
16:14:12 <JF> JF has joined #mobile-a11y
16:15:06 <Detlev> Alistair: a technique for small screen has not been copied back into master table - the toic was error msg
16:15:24 <JF> Present+ JF
16:16:27 <Detlev> Kim: looking at M029
16:16:46 <Detlev> Jeanne: lets also work on 2.5.3 they belong together
16:17:22 <Kim> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-
16:18:18 <patrick_h_lauke> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#tap-press-revocable
16:18:41 <patrick_h_lauke> and my email comment https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Jul/0038.html
16:18:53 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3
16:19:07 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/M029
16:20:19 <Detlev> Kim: Patrick - any thoughts on 2.5.3 as it stands?
16:21:45 <patrick_h_lauke> http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tests/pointercapture.html
16:21:53 <Detlev> Concern was when finger inside elements / buttons in mobile browsers may implement some automatic capture of touchso button will be triggered even if finger is moved outside the button
16:22:37 <Detlev> Patrick: As long as finger is pressed while you move it ouside, the event will be fired
16:23:26 <Detlev> Patricks: makes use more fault-tolerant also benefits people with motor impairment
16:25:46 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3
16:25:47 <Detlev> Patrick: remove part that says fingerhas to stay inside control to activate - in the wording?
16:27:04 <jeanne> 2.5.3 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: When the device-based assistive technology (e.g screenreader) is being used, then the selection gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)
16:27:21 <jeanne> Understanding: People with various disabilities can inadvertently initiate a touch event with unwanted results. Authors can reduce this problem by making the behavior more intentional, such as providing a confirmation alert when the event is destructive or causes significant changes, or allowing the user to slide away from the button or touch object before lifting their finger, thereby
16:27:21 <jeanne> canceling the event.
16:27:38 <Detlev> Alistair: If behaviour implemented now?
16:28:37 <Detlev> Patrick: We are discussing the behaviour with AT (VO, TalkBack)
16:29:40 <Detlev> Chris: The click event is implemented as double-tap
16:30:21 <Detlev> In some cases this is overwritten so actons are triggered immeadiately
16:30:50 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has joined #mobile-a11y
16:30:57 <Detlev> Chris: In a browser you can't overwrite the AT, but in native apps you can
16:31:05 <patrick_h_lauke> (got kicked out of the irc channel for some reason)
16:31:12 <patrick_h_lauke> so basically the new proposed SC "2.5.3 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: When the device-based assistive technology (e.g screenreader) is being used, then the selection gesture must be separate from the activation gesture, have confirmation, or be easily reversible. (Level A)" is actually quite substantially different from the one i commented on originally
16:31:18 <patrick_h_lauke> "2.5.3 [Proposed New MOBILE Success Criteria] 2.5.3 Single Taps and Long Presses Revocable: Interface elements that require a single tap or a long press as input will only trigger the corresponding event when the finger is lifted inside that element. (Level A)" (as in that older one, what i was commenting on - proposing that it would be removed - was the "lifted inside that element" part)
16:31:52 <Detlev> Alistair: Should thisbe wider: "Dont overwrite AT"?
16:32:14 <Detlev> Chris; difficult because there are valid cases (as in drawing app)
16:32:53 <Detlev> Patrick: Current wording has nothing that mandates the finge should stay inside element
16:33:40 <Detlev> patrick: The behaviour in touch ATs is to separate selection and activation
16:35:13 <Detlev> Patrick: The revocable aspect is not in there now - just prevention of accidental actions
16:36:33 <Detlev> Chris: Issu in wording M029 is requiring confirmation - is there another failure that will require confrmation for important events (like bookign something)?
16:36:52 <Detlev> Patrick: WOuld that not be covered under WCAG error prevention
16:37:01 <Detlev> Chris: yes probably
16:37:05 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#minimize-error
16:37:08 <patrick_h_lauke> 3.3.4
16:37:36 <Detlev> Kim: So no further failue for that is needed
16:37:37 <patrick_h_lauke> so i'd propose: remove the wording relating to "revocable" from the proposed SC 2.5.3
16:38:57 <Detlev> Chris: so this is talking about the differnence between navigation and activation on touch devices
16:39:13 <Detlev> Patrick: also to mobile without touch
16:39:33 <Detlev> Chris: the SC is the On focus one from WCAG
16:40:25 <Detlev> patrick; Even wonderign if an explicit SC is needed or just an additional failure of 3.2.1 On focus
16:40:45 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#consistent-behavior-receive-focus
16:41:35 <Detlev> Chris: Relating it too muich to 3.2.1 is that it may not be obvious to non-experts
16:42:15 <Detlev> Chris: the conclusion is that it may be better to keep it separate as a mobile issue
16:42:36 <patrick_h_lauke> the missing parts of what devs may not know is: a) using touch devices + touch AT, users navigate in a similar way to keyboard navigation, and elements receive focus (and depending on platform, MAY fire JS focus() events), therefore b) make sure things don't fire on focus
16:43:00 <Detlev> Marc: Better to keep 2.2.1 separate from 2.5.3
16:43:32 <Detlev> corretion 3.2.1 not 2.2.1
16:44:44 <Detlev> Patrick: Developers need to know that on touc devices with AT the navigation is similar o keyboard navigation
16:45:08 <marcjohlic> I withdraw my comment - that's what I get for multi-tasking  :)
16:46:18 <Detlev> Patrick: an additon in 3.2.1 for mobile or a separate SC - both possible, political issue
16:47:30 <Detlev> Chris: Reason for keeping separate: many developers don't rwealize that focus and accessibility focus are a separate thing - 3.2.1 talks about kb focus, on the AT focus that includes also items that are not kb-focusable
16:47:58 <Detlev> Patrick: How is that different from tabbinf and arrow focus on the desktop?
16:48:58 <Detlev> Chris: Finite set of cmds on desktop, tab, arrows - more diverse on mobile
16:49:28 <Detlev> Patrick: Only a finite set is recognised by touch with AT on
16:50:07 <Detlev> Chris: can be overridden at least in native apps
16:50:30 <Detlev> Kim: think o fspeech input as well
16:51:00 <Detlev> Patrick: Question on focus of TF: is native also included?
16:51:24 <JF> -1 to that
16:51:26 <Detlev> Jeanne: We want to, but it is not decided on WG level
16:51:44 <Detlev> Alistair: Bette rmove out native stuff, it's different
16:52:04 <Detlev> Marc: Many poeple will want to follow WCAG also for native stuff
16:52:46 <Detlev> Chris: Capabilities of native may increasingly become available in browsers
16:53:01 <Detlev> Alistair: now there is confusion for developers
16:53:23 <Detlev> JF: Separating tracks would be a cop-out
16:53:40 <Detlev> JF: Keep it together and notice the differences
16:53:57 <Detlev> Chris: on the level of SC there should be no difference
16:54:09 <patrick_h_lauke> if you want to include native, AND cases where native overrides actual AT behavior...then you'll need SCs that effectively reimplement any AT interaction, IMO
16:54:30 <Detlev> JF: "as technology allows" may be a good phrase to use to accommodate changes
16:54:51 <Detlev> Alistair: So we need techniques for native, too
16:54:51 <jeanne> +1 to making the difference in the Techniques
16:55:27 <Detlev> JF: when it's a native only thing you pass by default asweb dev
16:55:54 <Detlev> JF; if we split things it creates confusion as well
16:57:23 <chriscm> +1 to keeping it separate.
16:57:34 <Detlev> Kim: we opened up the native can of worms
16:58:05 <Detlev> Kim: is everyone good with keeping 3.2.1 and 2.5.3 separate?
16:59:42 <jeanne> Detlev: a major difference between mobile and desktop, is that desktop has specific navigation keys, like arrows and tab.  It's a different experience.
16:59:54 <jeanne> ... there may be advantages to putting it together.
16:59:56 <patrick_h_lauke> my view would be: 2.5.3 is the same as WCAG 2.0 3.2.1 if it's clear that we're talking about the fact that touch + touch AT behaves very similarly to "desktop" + keyboard, meaning that users will move (reading) focus around the content, so the same issue of not firing things on focus apply to touch + touch AT
17:00:37 <Detlev> Patrick: Can join again to discuss failure
17:01:11 <Detlev> Kim: If you prefer you can work on the Wiki, but add link
17:01:28 <JF> JF has left #mobile-a11y
17:01:35 <patrick_h_lauke> the fact that on desktop+keyboard there's a "finite" set of keystrokes vs on touchscreen + touch AT there are just swipe gestures is, in my mind, a red herring
17:01:58 <patrick_h_lauke> no matter HOW users move their focus to things, the point is still the same: once something DOES receive focus, don't fire actions, but wait for explicit activation
17:03:42 <patrick_h_lauke> so the very high-level point that 3.2.1 in WCAG 2.0 (and the proposed 2.5.3 if you want it separate) is making is: there is a difference between moving your cursor/focus/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to an element and actually activating it, so ensure that you have this distinction
17:03:57 <patrick_h_lauke> </rant>
17:04:04 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has left #mobile-a11y
17:04:39 <chriscm> Right, but the activating function isn't onFocus, it's on end hover.  Which is completely different...
17:05:10 <chriscm> Conceptually similar, but not the same.
17:06:05 <Detlev> Well the equivalent of moving the mouse outside a button before museUp would be, on tocu with AT on, to dicover after the second tap of a doble tap that you actually donÄt want to activat that element and then move the finger to pürevent hat from happening - right?
17:07:56 <Detlev> Ok we do that on the list...
17:10:44 <Kim> zakim, list participants
17:10:44 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Alistair, jeanne, Detlev, Kim, chriscm, marcjohlic, JF
17:12:17 <Kim> regrets+ Henny
17:12:29 <Kim>  rrsagent, make minutes
17:12:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/25-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:32:31 <Kim> Present+  Patrick
17:32:50 <Kim> 	 rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/25-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:49:12 <Kim> rrsagent, bye
17:49:12 <RRSAgent> I see no action items