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13:46:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:46:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:46:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:46:49 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
13:46:49 <trackbot> Date: 24 February 2016
13:47:29 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Feb/0037
13:47:38 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Feb/0037
13:47:48 <Steven> Chair: Steven
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14:00:56 <Steven> Present: Steven, Alain, Erik
14:01:13 <Steven> Present+Philip
14:02:31 <Steven> Topic: New TR style
14:02:31 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2016JanMar/0036.html
14:02:31 <Steven> https://w3c.github.io/tr-design/src/sample.html
14:02:51 <Steven> Steven: THere is a new TR style, required from 1 March
14:02:58 <Steven> ... so I will look into implementing it.
14:03:05 <Steven> s/TH/Th
14:03:14 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to implement new TR style
14:03:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2054 - Implement new tr style [on Steven Pemberton - due 2016-03-02].
14:03:52 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-2051 - Experiment with a type for non-space string, and
14:03:52 <Steven> report back
14:03:52 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2016/02/17-forms-minutes.html#action02
14:04:08 <Steven> Steven: THank you for doing that Alain (http://www.agencexml.com/direct/trimmed/typed-hello.xml)
14:04:15 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:04:22 <Steven> Steven: What did it involve
14:04:27 <Steven> Alain: Added a type
14:04:47 <Steven> ... input field can be edited, but the instance value is not necessarily updated.
14:05:11 <Steven> Steven: What did you have to change in the implementation?
14:05:25 <Steven> Alain: I had to separate the inpur node and the instance value
14:05:31 <Steven> ... look at the source
14:05:47 <Steven> Steven: The implementation has to recognise the type specially?
14:05:50 <Steven> Alain: Yes.
14:05:56 <Steven> Erik: Who does the trimming?
14:06:13 <Steven> Alain: It's in incremental mode
14:06:37 <Steven> Erik: Yes, but at which point?
14:06:44 <Steven> Alain: When refreshing.
14:07:58 <Steven> ... it compares values after removing spaces.
14:08:24 <Steven> Steven: SO a user couldnt add a type like this?
14:08:44 <Steven> Alain: No, the implementation recognises the type.
14:10:16 <Steven> Steven: So if you wanted a type to remove all spaces, and another type to reduce all spaces to single ones, you would have to introduce two more types and recognise them specially in the implementation
14:10:19 <Steven> Alain: Yes.
14:11:46 <Steven> Erik: When I type, something gets added to the data, and then I type a space, that gets written to the data, and on a refresh it gets trimmed?
14:11:48 <Steven> Alain: Yes
14:12:39 <Steven> Erik: The value for the output is trimmed on refresh, and the value of the input is not trimmed if it has focus?
14:13:30 <Steven> Steven: So you have special knowledge on the input and output?
14:13:40 <Steven> Alain: No, not on the output
14:14:14 <Steven> Erik: If I tab out of the field?
14:14:33 <Steven> Steven: Then the input value gets trimmed as well?
14:14:47 <Steven> Alain: Yes.
14:15:01 <Steven> Erik: We do it differently.
14:15:23 <Steven> ... The value in the input gets written to the data, and gets trimmed at the next recalculate
14:15:39 <Steven> ... On refresh, the control just gets the value.
14:15:59 <Steven> ... Something special would need to be done to deal with incremental
14:16:49 <Steven> Steven: Yoou said that you have a whitespace flag on the value?
14:17:02 <ebruchez> xxf:whitespace="preserve | trim"
14:17:04 <Steven> Erik: It's a new MIP
14:17:37 <Steven> Steven: Is that better than a type?
14:17:39 <Steven> Erik: Not sure. You can add this to any type.
14:18:18 <Steven> ... for instance, an email type can have whitespace trim.
14:19:18 <Steven> Steven: If it were a MIP, we could add other values, I'm thinking of a credit-card value, that would remove all spaces.
14:19:32 <Steven> Erik: Normalise spaces would be another.
14:19:38 <Steven> ... collapse spaces.
14:20:19 <Steven> ... it is annoying that in 2016 there are still websites telling you not to type spaces.
14:21:07 <Steven> ... there are other possible transformations, where whitespace is a subset, but an important one.
14:21:29 <Steven> Alain: Phone numbers with dots and dashes, same problem.
14:22:42 <Steven> Steven: I like the MIP solution, because you can apply it to any type.
14:23:00 <Steven> ... would it be more difficult to do iit in your implementation Alain?
14:23:08 <Steven> Alain: No.
14:23:20 <Steven> Erik: You can actually see it as a calculation.
14:23:57 <Steven> Alain: It's related to 'collations'.
14:24:56 <Steven> ... for instance uppercase to lowercase.
14:25:09 <Steven> s/iit/it/
14:27:45 <ebruchez> calculates="normalize-space()"
14:27:58 <ebruchez> s/calculates/calculate
14:28:02 <Steven> Steven: It could be done with a function that removes the spaces, and a calculate, with two values, one for input and one for output.
14:28:15 <ebruchez> calculates="xxf:trim()"
14:28:22 <ebruchez> s/calculates/calculate
14:28:26 <Steven> <data><in/><out/></data>
14:28:54 <Steven> <bind ref="out" calculate="trim(../in)"/>
14:29:08 <Steven> <input ref="in"/>
14:29:15 <Steven> <output ref="out"/>
14:29:27 <Steven> Erik: Clearly.
14:29:40 <Steven> ... but this would be heavy for a large form.
14:30:35 <Steven> Steven: you were suggesting a calculate that calculates itself.
14:30:44 <Steven> Erik: Yes.
14:30:58 <Steven> ... but this has problems for incremental mode.
14:31:16 <Steven> ... that's a drawback.
14:32:05 <Steven> Steven: We don't have anything at present in XForms that does anything like that...
14:32:27 <Steven> Erik: I don't think so; I use it in forms, though less now that we have the whitespace MIP.
14:32:57 <Steven> Steven: Let's take a week to let this all sink in.
14:33:24 <Steven> Alain: Yes. Though I think it may be a more general problem.
14:33:39 <Steven> ... It's a two-way problem.
14:33:55 <ebruchez> <input format="..." unformat="..." ...>
14:34:02 <Steven> Erik: We have things like this in our implementation for dealing with the input/output differences
14:34:34 <Steven> ... flexible, but you need to write the expressions every time
14:34:49 <Steven> ... better really to have it at the model level.
14:35:21 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-2053 - Work out how to replace link-exception
14:35:21 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2016/02/17-forms-minutes.html#action04
14:35:41 <Steven> Steven: Erik, anything on this?
14:37:00 <Steven> Erik: I sent an email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Feb/0040.html
14:38:01 <Steven> ... we can use the other exceptions as a model for how to solve it. Not difficult.
14:38:06 <Steven> ... See mail.
14:42:41 <Steven> Steven: Looks convincing, anyone got any problems with it?
14:42:45 <Steven> Alain: No
14:42:48 <Steven> Philip: No
14:43:04 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to implement replace link-exception
14:43:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2055 - Implement replace link-exception [on Erik Bruchez - due 2016-03-02].
14:43:47 <Steven> Topic: AOB?
14:45:09 <Steven> Steven: Organising XML Days in AMsterdam later in the year, sometime in the autumn. More details to follow.
14:45:30 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
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14:45:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/24-forms-minutes.html Steven
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