17:52:39 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:52:39 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-irc 17:52:43 Zakim has joined #aria-apg 17:57:04 jamesn has joined #aria-apg 17:57:47 JF has joined #aria-apg 17:58:28 annabbott has joined #aria-apg 17:58:30 zakim, clear agenda 17:58:30 agenda cleared 17:58:38 rrsagent, make log world 17:58:40 Agenda+ Complete review of section 2.18 Listbox http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox 17:58:40 Agenda+ Review section 2.31 Tab Panel http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#tabpanel 17:58:40 Agenda+ Review section 2.2 Accordion http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#accordion 17:58:40 Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status 17:59:43 regrets: LeonieWatson BryanGaraventa IanPouncey 18:00:08 present+ AnnAbbott 18:00:18 regrets+ MattKing 18:00:24 present+ jaeunjemmaku 18:00:32 rrsagent, make minutes 18:00:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn 18:01:10 present+ MichielBijl 18:01:12 present+ JamesNurthen 18:01:19 chair: JamesNurthen 18:01:27 meeting: WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce 18:01:34 rrsagent, make minutes 18:01:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn 18:02:01 Present+ JF 18:02:28 zakim, who's here? 18:02:28 Present: AnnAbbott, jaeunjemmaku, MichielBijl, JamesNurthen, JF 18:02:30 On IRC I see annabbott, JF, jamesn, Zakim, RRSAgent, jemma, MichaelC, MichielBijl, trackbot, timeless 18:03:09 agenda? 18:03:25 scribe: MichielBijl 18:03:42 zakim, next item 18:03:42 agendum 1. "Complete review of section 2.18 Listbox http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox" taken up [from jamesn] 18:04:45 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29469 18:05:17 Contents of bug report: Get rid of choices or in 1st para description. 18:05:17 3rd paragraph - put the instruction b4 the explanation. 18:05:28 JN: Anybody have comments? 18:06:25 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:06:37 present+ JonGunderson Birkir 18:07:10 Birkir has joined #aria-apg 18:07:36 MB: Last paragraph reads “See the examples for recommended ways of designing around this limitation. (Editor's note: examples are not yet coded.)” what sort of code examples do we need? 18:07:37 present+birkir 18:07:49 JN: Do we normally refer code examples in description? Seems weird. 18:07:56 MB: No don't think so. I'd just remove it. 18:09:38 JN: I'm okay with last paragraph, seems like general advice, but might be more important for listbox. 18:09:42 MB: Agreed. 18:10:19 JN: Move on to keyboard interaction 18:11:31 *something about tabindex* 18:12:07 JN: First bullet should not be under keyboard interaction. 18:12:22 +1 18:12:35 Bikir: change to just read “widget should be in the taborder” 18:12:37 +1 18:13:20 +1 18:13:49 JN: Same with second bullet. First sentence is all we need. 18:13:50 +1 18:14:08 *all cheer and shout in agreement* 18:16:02 “When a listbox receives focus, visual focus is set on an option inside the listbox. If browser focus is set to the container with role listbox then aria-activedescendant must be used to refer to the option with visual focus.” 18:16:12 JN: Remove that bullet 18:17:33 MB: Ignore me 18:17:35 JN: visual focus ≠ selecting 18:18:16 JN: Why is this one so long? 18:18:24 JN: Is it useful being this long? 18:18:43 JK: It's good to understand all 18:18:54 Birkir: it's broken down more 18:19:37 MB: listbox is equal to select element with either rows or multiple set right? 18:19:41 JN: Yes. 18:20:59 JN: we need to clarify difference between select and focus 18:21:08 Birkir: yeah we do 18:21:28 JN: how do we do that? 18:21:42 JN: should that be part of the description? 18:21:45 MB: Yeah 18:21:50 Birkir: yes 18:23:43 JF: *issue with aria-select=none* 18:23:53 JF: testing combobox example 18:24:09 JF: if you move focus it states it's not selected 18:24:57 JF: question is, combobox is like a single select, should you be setting aria-select true on focus? 18:25:09 "Single-selection containers where the currently focused item is not selected. The selection normally follows the focus, and is managed by the user agent." 18:27:07 "Multiple-selection containers. Authors SHOULD ensure that any selectable descendant of a container in which the aria-multiselectable attribute is true specifies a value of either true or false for the aria-selected attribute." 18:27:57 w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html 18:28:41 " If no DOM element in the widget is explicitly marked as selected, assistive technologies may convey implicit selection which follows the keyboard focus of the managed focus widget." 18:28:59 JF: What does that say for the author? 18:29:10 JF: single select don't bother with it? 18:29:24 JN: single select do the same thing; aria-selected on focus 18:29:48 s/JF/JG/ 18:29:51 s/JF/JG/ 18:31:33 JG: shouldn't matter from APG point 18:31:36 JN: Agreed 18:31:45 JN: That's what the states and properties says 18:31:56 JN: should clarify what we mean by aria-selected 18:37:07 Birkir: once you've entered a list you can't deselect 18:37:16 MB: example for html select http://dir.rawr.eu/select.html 18:38:56 MB: to confirm, you cannot clear your selection in that example on the Mac. 18:39:35 AA: drop the bullet & text for context menu 18:40:17 MB: are those even a thing? 18:40:41 JN: yeah, a rare thing, but they are a thing 18:41:07 JN: dropping it sounds reasonable as it's a general thing (context menu key combo) 18:43:42 Jemma: lots of duplication in the multiple key interaction 18:47:56 MB: focus on removing duplication 18:48:11 AA: add general key strokes (up/down, home/end) 18:48:36 Birkir: agreed 18:48:42 JN: make home/end optional? 18:49:17 Birkir: same as type ahead (strongly recommended) 18:49:27 MB: +1 18:49:56 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29469 18:50:49 JN: what about note? 18:50:52 MB: meaningless 18:50:55 JN: drop note 18:54:51 MB: fourth bullet is vague 18:55:20 MB: does it mean they're not present in the DOM, or not descendants. 18:55:29 JN: posinset only used if not in DOM 18:55:49 Jemma: what is the context of this situation 18:56:05 JN: if not all children of the listbox are loaded (due to dynamic loading) 18:57:31 MB: “If not all options are currently in the DOM, all options should have their aria-setsize and aria-posinset set accordingly.” 18:58:41 Birkir: want to merge the second and third bullet 18:58:46 MB: +1 19:00:55 AA: +1 19:01:02 "Each entry in the listbox should have a role option and should be a DOM child of listbox or referenced in the listbox by aria-owns." 19:04:29 Birkir: should “selected list item” be option? 19:04:38 AA: we use different things in other bullets 19:04:47 MB: whatever is used, it should be consistent 19:05:01 AA: should it be “selected list option”? 19:06:11 JN: add note for editor to clean up? 19:06:17 *all agree* 19:08:57 MB: there should be something in there to state the thing is a multiselect 19:09:01 *all agree* 19:09:48 JN: aria-multiselectable, and all children/entries/options/items need aria-selected=true|false 19:11:12 zakim, next item 19:11:12 agendum 2. "Review section 2.31 Tab Panel http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#tabpanel" taken up [from jamesn] 19:13:22 JG: are we getting rid of ctrol+page up/down 19:13:31 s/ctrol/control/ 19:13:36 JN: I hope so 19:13:39 MB: me too 19:13:48 JN: could be optional, but prefer removing them 19:15:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRmX-GvFeXI 19:16:50 MB: should we push this to next week? 19:17:37 JN: should we have multiple ways to do this? 19:17:44 MB: I could get on board with that. 19:18:06 JN: activate on focus could be bad for performance 19:18:13 MB: could circumvent with delay 19:21:53 JN: let's review the description 19:22:44 AA: doesn't give you the hierarchy 19:22:47 MB: +1 19:24:00 https://github.com/bkardell/common-panel 19:24:17 spec: https://specs.webplatform.org/#panels-and-panelsets 19:24:52 Err, actual spec: https://specs.webplatform.org/common-panel/bkardell/gh-pages/ 19:25:44 JF: we should look at it closely and take cues from it 19:25:56 JN: we're trying to make this clearer right now 19:27:40 dismis zakim 19:27:43 rrsagent, make minutes 19:27:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn 19:27:52 zakim, bye 19:27:52 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been AnnAbbott, jaeunjemmaku, MichielBijl, JamesNurthen, JF, JonGunderson, Birkir 19:27:52 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:28:04 topic: other business 19:28:21 rrsagent, make minutes 19:28:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn 19:28:25 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/226 19:29:22 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/221 19:30:20 JF: yes, task force should be two words 19:33:22 Okay, thanks John! 19:33:37 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:33:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl