IRC log of aria-apg on 2016-02-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:52:39 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:52:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-irc
17:52:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria-apg
17:57:04 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #aria-apg
17:57:47 [JF]
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17:58:28 [annabbott]
annabbott has joined #aria-apg
17:58:30 [jamesn]
zakim, clear agenda
17:58:30 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
17:58:38 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
17:58:40 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Complete review of section 2.18 Listbox http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox
17:58:40 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review section 2.31 Tab Panel http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#tabpanel
17:58:40 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review section 2.2 Accordion http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#accordion
17:58:40 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
17:59:43 [jamesn]
regrets: LeonieWatson BryanGaraventa IanPouncey
18:00:08 [annabbott]
present+ AnnAbbott
18:00:18 [jamesn]
regrets+ MattKing
18:00:24 [jemma]
present+ jaeunjemmaku
18:00:32 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:01:10 [MichielBijl]
present+ MichielBijl
18:01:12 [jamesn]
present+ JamesNurthen
18:01:19 [jamesn]
chair: JamesNurthen
18:01:27 [jamesn]
meeting: WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
18:01:34 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:02:01 [JF]
Present+ JF
18:02:28 [JF]
zakim, who's here?
18:02:28 [Zakim]
Present: AnnAbbott, jaeunjemmaku, MichielBijl, JamesNurthen, JF
18:02:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see annabbott, JF, jamesn, Zakim, RRSAgent, jemma, MichaelC, MichielBijl, trackbot, timeless
18:03:09 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:03:25 [MichielBijl]
scribe: MichielBijl
18:03:42 [MichielBijl]
zakim, next item
18:03:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Complete review of section 2.18 Listbox http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox" taken up [from jamesn]
18:04:45 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29469
18:05:17 [MichielBijl]
Contents of bug report: Get rid of choices or in 1st para description.
18:05:17 [MichielBijl]
3rd paragraph - put the instruction b4 the explanation.
18:05:28 [MichielBijl]
JN: Anybody have comments?
18:06:25 [jongund]
jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:06:37 [jamesn]
present+ JonGunderson Birkir
18:07:10 [Birkir]
Birkir has joined #aria-apg
18:07:36 [MichielBijl]
MB: Last paragraph reads “See the examples for recommended ways of designing around this limitation. (Editor's note: examples are not yet coded.)” what sort of code examples do we need?
18:07:37 [Birkir]
present+birkir
18:07:49 [MichielBijl]
JN: Do we normally refer code examples in description? Seems weird.
18:07:56 [MichielBijl]
MB: No don't think so. I'd just remove it.
18:09:38 [MichielBijl]
JN: I'm okay with last paragraph, seems like general advice, but might be more important for listbox.
18:09:42 [MichielBijl]
MB: Agreed.
18:10:19 [MichielBijl]
JN: Move on to keyboard interaction
18:11:31 [MichielBijl]
*something about tabindex*
18:12:07 [MichielBijl]
JN: First bullet should not be under keyboard interaction.
18:12:22 [JF]
+1
18:12:35 [MichielBijl]
Bikir: change to just read “widget should be in the taborder”
18:12:37 [MichielBijl]
+1
18:13:20 [annabbott]
+1
18:13:49 [MichielBijl]
JN: Same with second bullet. First sentence is all we need.
18:13:50 [MichielBijl]
+1
18:14:08 [MichielBijl]
*all cheer and shout in agreement*
18:16:02 [MichielBijl]
“When a listbox receives focus, visual focus is set on an option inside the listbox. If browser focus is set to the container with role listbox then aria-activedescendant must be used to refer to the option with visual focus.”
18:16:12 [MichielBijl]
JN: Remove that bullet
18:17:33 [MichielBijl]
MB: Ignore me
18:17:35 [MichielBijl]
JN: visual focus ≠ selecting
18:18:16 [MichielBijl]
JN: Why is this one so long?
18:18:24 [MichielBijl]
JN: Is it useful being this long?
18:18:43 [MichielBijl]
JK: It's good to understand all
18:18:54 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: it's broken down more
18:19:37 [MichielBijl]
MB: listbox is equal to select element with either rows or multiple set right?
18:19:41 [MichielBijl]
JN: Yes.
18:20:59 [MichielBijl]
JN: we need to clarify difference between select and focus
18:21:08 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: yeah we do
18:21:28 [MichielBijl]
JN: how do we do that?
18:21:42 [MichielBijl]
JN: should that be part of the description?
18:21:45 [MichielBijl]
MB: Yeah
18:21:50 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: yes
18:23:43 [MichielBijl]
JF: *issue with aria-select=none*
18:23:53 [MichielBijl]
JF: testing combobox example
18:24:09 [MichielBijl]
JF: if you move focus it states it's not selected
18:24:57 [MichielBijl]
JF: question is, combobox is like a single select, should you be setting aria-select true on focus?
18:25:09 [jamesn]
"Single-selection containers where the currently focused item is not selected. The selection normally follows the focus, and is managed by the user agent."
18:27:07 [jamesn]
"Multiple-selection containers. Authors SHOULD ensure that any selectable descendant of a container in which the aria-multiselectable attribute is true specifies a value of either true or false for the aria-selected attribute."
18:27:57 [MichielBijl]
w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html
18:28:41 [jamesn]
" If no DOM element in the widget is explicitly marked as selected, assistive technologies may convey implicit selection which follows the keyboard focus of the managed focus widget."
18:28:59 [MichielBijl]
JF: What does that say for the author?
18:29:10 [MichielBijl]
JF: single select don't bother with it?
18:29:24 [MichielBijl]
JN: single select do the same thing; aria-selected on focus
18:29:48 [MichielBijl]
s/JF/JG/
18:29:51 [MichielBijl]
s/JF/JG/
18:31:33 [MichielBijl]
JG: shouldn't matter from APG point
18:31:36 [MichielBijl]
JN: Agreed
18:31:45 [MichielBijl]
JN: That's what the states and properties says
18:31:56 [MichielBijl]
JN: should clarify what we mean by aria-selected
18:37:07 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: once you've entered a list you can't deselect
18:37:16 [MichielBijl]
MB: example for html select http://dir.rawr.eu/select.html
18:38:56 [MichielBijl]
MB: to confirm, you cannot clear your selection in that example on the Mac.
18:39:35 [annabbott]
AA: drop the bullet & text for context menu
18:40:17 [MichielBijl]
MB: are those even a thing?
18:40:41 [MichielBijl]
JN: yeah, a rare thing, but they are a thing
18:41:07 [MichielBijl]
JN: dropping it sounds reasonable as it's a general thing (context menu key combo)
18:43:42 [MichielBijl]
Jemma: lots of duplication in the multiple key interaction
18:47:56 [MichielBijl]
MB: focus on removing duplication
18:48:11 [MichielBijl]
AA: add general key strokes (up/down, home/end)
18:48:36 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: agreed
18:48:42 [MichielBijl]
JN: make home/end optional?
18:49:17 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: same as type ahead (strongly recommended)
18:49:27 [MichielBijl]
MB: +1
18:49:56 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29469
18:50:49 [MichielBijl]
JN: what about note?
18:50:52 [MichielBijl]
MB: meaningless
18:50:55 [MichielBijl]
JN: drop note
18:54:51 [MichielBijl]
MB: fourth bullet is vague
18:55:20 [MichielBijl]
MB: does it mean they're not present in the DOM, or not descendants.
18:55:29 [MichielBijl]
JN: posinset only used if not in DOM
18:55:49 [MichielBijl]
Jemma: what is the context of this situation
18:56:05 [MichielBijl]
JN: if not all children of the listbox are loaded (due to dynamic loading)
18:57:31 [MichielBijl]
MB: “If not all options are currently in the DOM, all options should have their aria-setsize and aria-posinset set accordingly.”
18:58:41 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: want to merge the second and third bullet
18:58:46 [MichielBijl]
MB: +1
19:00:55 [annabbott]
AA: +1
19:01:02 [jamesn]
"Each entry in the listbox should have a role option and should be a DOM child of listbox or referenced in the listbox by aria-owns."
19:04:29 [MichielBijl]
Birkir: should “selected list item” be option?
19:04:38 [MichielBijl]
AA: we use different things in other bullets
19:04:47 [MichielBijl]
MB: whatever is used, it should be consistent
19:05:01 [MichielBijl]
AA: should it be “selected list option”?
19:06:11 [MichielBijl]
JN: add note for editor to clean up?
19:06:17 [MichielBijl]
*all agree*
19:08:57 [MichielBijl]
MB: there should be something in there to state the thing is a multiselect
19:09:01 [MichielBijl]
*all agree*
19:09:48 [MichielBijl]
JN: aria-multiselectable, and all children/entries/options/items need aria-selected=true|false
19:11:12 [MichielBijl]
zakim, next item
19:11:12 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review section 2.31 Tab Panel http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#tabpanel" taken up [from jamesn]
19:13:22 [MichielBijl]
JG: are we getting rid of ctrol+page up/down
19:13:31 [MichielBijl]
s/ctrol/control/
19:13:36 [MichielBijl]
JN: I hope so
19:13:39 [MichielBijl]
MB: me too
19:13:48 [MichielBijl]
JN: could be optional, but prefer removing them
19:15:45 [MichielBijl]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRmX-GvFeXI
19:16:50 [MichielBijl]
MB: should we push this to next week?
19:17:37 [MichielBijl]
JN: should we have multiple ways to do this?
19:17:44 [MichielBijl]
MB: I could get on board with that.
19:18:06 [MichielBijl]
JN: activate on focus could be bad for performance
19:18:13 [MichielBijl]
MB: could circumvent with delay
19:21:53 [MichielBijl]
JN: let's review the description
19:22:44 [MichielBijl]
AA: doesn't give you the hierarchy
19:22:47 [MichielBijl]
MB: +1
19:24:00 [MichielBijl]
https://github.com/bkardell/common-panel
19:24:17 [MichielBijl]
spec: https://specs.webplatform.org/#panels-and-panelsets
19:24:52 [MichielBijl]
Err, actual spec: https://specs.webplatform.org/common-panel/bkardell/gh-pages/
19:25:44 [MichielBijl]
JF: we should look at it closely and take cues from it
19:25:56 [MichielBijl]
JN: we're trying to make this clearer right now
19:27:40 [MichielBijl]
dismis zakim
19:27:43 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:27:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:27:52 [MichielBijl]
zakim, bye
19:27:52 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been AnnAbbott, jaeunjemmaku, MichielBijl, JamesNurthen, JF, JonGunderson, Birkir
19:27:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:28:04 [MichielBijl]
topic: other business
19:28:21 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:28:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:28:25 [MichielBijl]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/226
19:29:22 [MichielBijl]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/221
19:30:20 [MichielBijl]
JF: yes, task force should be two words
19:33:22 [MichielBijl]
Okay, thanks John!
19:33:37 [MichielBijl]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:33:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/22-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl