20:28:32 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:28:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-svg-irc 20:28:34 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:28:36 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:28:36 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 20:28:37 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:28:37 Date: 18 February 2016 20:29:05 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2016Feb/0047.html 20:29:16 Chair: Nikos 20:29:23 present+ nikos 20:32:53 present+ Tav 20:33:40 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg 20:35:07 present+ stakagi 20:36:34 649 040 824 20:37:20 svg 20:37:30 'svg' is the password 20:38:45 Scribe: Nikos 20:38:48 scribenick: nikos 20:39:01 Topic: How should degenerate closed paths render in SVG 20:39:17 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/42 20:39:58 nikos: Think the spec intention is for zero length closed subpaths to render as open subpaths 20:40:02 ... based on the cap 20:40:14 Tav: I disagree - I have a demo 20:40:21 http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/line_cap.svg 20:40:50 Tav: Shows an animation - for the open path I think the result is correct 20:41:09 nikos: That is clearly specced in SVG at the moment 20:41:25 Tav: A closed path doesn't have any caps - it should use linejoins if anything 20:42:31 AmeliaBR: Behaviour is different for chrome and FF 20:42:48 Tav: I think I saw mention that a closed path should render as a circle of zero radius 20:42:59 ... then you would have a stroke that gives a circle 20:43:07 ... the end result is the same for round 20:43:16 ... square and butt would also end up being a circle 20:43:25 AmeliaBR: Edge has same behaviour as FF 20:43:53 nikos: There's a table describing implementation behaviour in the github issue 20:44:03 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/paths.html#PathDataErrorHandling 20:44:12 nikos: strongest text is in path data error handling 20:44:29 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#LineCaps 20:44:50 nikos: The painting chapter also talks about this for each cap - but not clear that it applies to zero length because they don't have caps 20:46:07 nikos: I like the behaviour of the cap controlling the effect 20:46:19 ... it gives the user complete control of what the behaviour will be 20:46:29 ... it does slightly overload the linecap attribute 20:47:11 ... it also matches most implementations and pdf 20:47:18 AmeliaBR: it's also the easiest to spec 20:47:31 nikos: I think we say open and closed subpaths are the same - that covers directionality 20:47:49 AmeliaBR: The continuity argument works for a circle but not for a square - you would animate down to a circle 20:49:38 nikos: Tav, could you love with linecaps? 20:49:45 Tav: I'm not going to jump up and down and scream if I don't get my way 20:50:13 shepazu: I'm inclined to agree with Nikos - on one hand it would be simpler to have a uniform behaviour and not have linecap have an effect 20:50:22 ... but I think letting the linecap control it does make sense 20:50:43 ... otherwise there's no way to control it - I might not be 100% in line with that decision, maybe swaying a little towards Tav as well 20:50:53 AmeliaBR: we already have this behaviour specced for open paths 20:51:05 ... it's not a perfect solution but it's out there and it does give the author some little control 20:52:34 RESOLUTION: zero length closed subpaths should render the same as zero length open subpath using the stroke-linecap to determine the result 20:53:49 ACTION: nikos to file a bug on chrome regarding zero length subpaths 20:53:49 Created ACTION-3837 - File a bug on chrome regarding zero length subpaths [on Nikos Andronikos - due 2016-02-25]. 20:54:02 AmeliaBR: I'm not seeing the star on FF nightly on Windows 20:54:25 Topic: Can we resolve on nested a elements? 20:54:35 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/26 20:55:12 nikos: This is an old issue - wondering if based on issue discussion we can resolve and close this? 20:55:21 AmeliaBR: html clearly specs you shouldn't nest links. We don't 20:55:29 ... second thing is giving user agent advice on how to handle this 20:55:35 q+ 20:55:43 ... Cam's test shows inner test takes precedence over outer link in html 20:55:48 richardschwerdtfeger: that makes sense 20:55:53 ack shepazu 20:56:07 shepazu: I think it makes sense to have the inner link take precedence over the outer link 20:56:16 ... if it's interop there's no sense in telling authors not to do that 20:56:23 ... it makes semantic sense to be able to do that 20:56:41 ... you can't always predict what will be a link when generating the svg (e.g. with some data vis package) 20:57:15 ... not allowing them to have nested links decreases the ability to have good semantic structures 20:57:32 AmeliaBR: Rich, do you know how screen readers deal with this? 20:57:41 richardschwerdtfeger: That's a great question 20:58:01 ... I don't think they handle it well - they usually treat them as the single line text 20:58:10 ... if you put a link inside of it - I think they'd have problems with it 20:58:18 shepazu: Do you think they would actually behave differently? 20:58:24 ... don't they just present things as a list of links? 20:58:34 ... so why would it care whether there's an outer and inner link? 20:58:43 richardschwerdtfeger: it does a name computation on the link 20:58:48 shepazu: let me give an example 20:59:09 http://mcc.id.au/temp/nested-links.html 20:59:28 foo bar 20:59:39 shepazu: Here the name computation for the outer link is foobar 20:59:41 ... the inner is bar 20:59:49 ... doesn't matter if there's an image or anything else 20:59:58 ... don't see how screen reader should be affected 21:00:05 richardschwerdtfeger: not sure if they would treat that as a single entity 21:00:10 ... or if they'd skip over the link 21:00:24 ... they do bring up a list of links on the page - but as you know, having a list of links on a page isn't always helpful 21:00:35 ... some things act like links that aren't links, etc 21:00:53 shepazu: if we strip it down they should be able to do something sensible 21:01:05 richardschwerdtfeger: think this group shouldn't worry about this - think the behaviour of allowing inner link is ok 21:01:28 AmeliaBR: we could add a sentence of authoring guidance that this may be a risky area without making it a strict problem 21:01:49 ... either way I think the best solution is to make sure the behaviour of svg match html 21:02:06 ... html has interop behaviour for a validity error 21:02:18 shepazu: doesn't matter if spec says no, let's ignore that 21:02:22 Tav: inner links are useful 21:03:14 richardschwerdtfeger: is there a reason we don't just point at html defintion? 21:03:20 AmeliaBR: there's some other inconsistencies 21:03:29 RESOLUTION: the content model of the a element in SVG will allow nested a elements 21:04:12 nikos: Just for clarity, the other aspect of that issue - the inclusion of extra attributes on SVG has already been discussed 21:04:18 AmeliaBR: I'd like to defer to html 21:04:32 Topic: Linking: ID + SVGViewSpec 21:04:41 Linking: ID + SVGViewSpec 21:04:52 AmeliaBR: It's an interesting idea - but not something I want to dive into for SVG 2 21:05:28 ... summary is why can't you use svg view specs to embed svg fragments from other parts of the document - either from other parts of a html document or child svg 21:05:35 AmeliaBR: there's definitely good use cases, but it's really complicated 21:05:50 ... the svg view spec assumes you're embedding a distinct separate file 21:06:19 ... we don't have ways to use view when svg is inline - if you add an anchor tag it's going to behave like normal html rules for target fragments 21:06:53 nikos: I'm happy with that - you're the expert in this area 21:07:11 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/48 21:07:17 AmeliaBR: I'll respond on the issue 21:07:46 nikos: We need a future feature tag for ideas we like but can't work on straight away 21:07:55 Topic: London F2F 21:08:12 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/London2016/ 21:08:56 nikos: Please register if you're coming 21:09:05 Topic: Accessibility update 21:09:08 richardschwerdtfeger: we've been very busy 21:09:14 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/graphics-aam/graphics-aam.html 21:09:18 ... we have a small vocab for the graphics module 21:09:27 ... here's the mapping spec we created over teh last week 21:09:31 ... we'll be doing some final edits 21:09:43 ... Jonie is putting the last drop of the svg accessibility mapping work into webkit 21:09:56 ... that's our first step forward 21:10:01 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html 21:10:07 ... we've also reflected the graphics additions into the new svg accessibility api mapping guide 21:10:22 ... what we project is that next month we'll refresh tehse heartbeat drafts 21:10:33 ... other thing we're doing is working to get aria 1 locked down and completed 21:10:37 ... over the next couple of months 21:10:46 ... we're trying to lock svg 2 down by the end of march? 21:10:56 nikos: it'll be a little later than that 21:11:04 AmeliaBR: final edits in April, approval in May 21:11:19 richardschwerdtfeger: we want to have aria 1.1 conssitent in it's support for html and svg 21:11:26 ... then we'll have a set of mapping for both html and svg 21:11:38 ... going forward we don't want to just have html - we want them to happen at the same time 21:11:54 ... we're focusing for SVG 2 on getting the basic accessibility work working across browsers 21:12:01 ... so not a lot of new semantics at this point 21:12:08 ... that'll be a huge win for the group though 21:12:22 AmeliaBR: just following up - I took some actions for the TF to make some edits that'll change SVG 2 21:12:47 ... we figured the best way to handle issues with svg elements that should not logically have any interaction is to come up with some clear definitions for a category of an element that we can reference 21:12:58 ... the way we have it now is to be general - any svg element can have tabindex for example 21:13:05 ... but there are lots of elements where this doesn't make sense 21:13:16 ... we want to have some clear definitions about elements that never represent anything on screen 21:13:25 ... e.g. if you put tabindex on a linear gradient it's ignored 21:13:38 richardschwerdtfeger: what about clarifications for title? 21:13:42 present+ AmeliaBR 21:13:44 present+ richardschwerdtfeger 21:13:58 AmeliaBR: we have this new feature of switching languages on title and desc 21:14:08 ... brad came up with a couple of unspecified issues 21:14:15 ... what happens if you have title or desc but it's empty 21:14:31 ... accessibility team felt we should keep it simple and not do anything fancy with that 21:14:38 ... not a useful result but a straight forward one 21:14:43 ... other question -what if lang is empty? 21:14:52 ... it means unknown language or no particular language 21:15:05 ... not quite sure how that should match as far as finding the best matched langauge rules 21:15:15 richardschwerdtfeger: how do the browsers handle that today? 21:15:51 AmeliaBR: the language switching rules don't exist right now, but I'm going to see whatpeople do with an empty tooltip 21:16:04 richardschwerdtfeger: I guess no one knows the answer right now? 21:16:05 nikos: that's right 21:16:17 AmeliaBR: I'm not getting anything with a tooltip 21:16:29 shepazu: you don't know that neccessarily 21:16:44 AmeliaBR: that's right they could be creating it but I can't see it 21:16:54 shepazu: might be getting discounted because of bounding box or something 21:17:00 richardschwerdtfeger: ok we don't have the answer to that right now 21:17:12 richardschwerdtfeger: I understand at the F2F there were some decisions on pointing to the html tabindex part 21:17:24 ... it's not as simple as that because the navigation for tab index includes form elements taht we don't have in svg 21:17:36 ... also there's a whole list of issues around event handlers on certain elemetns and where they apply 21:17:53 ... I agree it would be nice to point to one place, but what we need to do is create a module that is re-used by both html and svg 21:18:07 ... don't think we can point to html - having gone through this, the reason I didn't point to html was 21:18:10 ... 1. it was in flux 21:18:20 ... 2. we really need to have one module we share for all the other erasons 21:18:29 ... html has gone for module design anyways 21:18:40 ... do you want to do this for svg 2 or do you want to follow up 21:19:03 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues 21:19:06 https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues 21:19:17 nikos: probably a good idea to raise a github issue so more people can comment 21:19:30 AmeliaBR: have you made an itemised list of reasons why ? 21:19:39 richardschwerdtfeger: no, but there's a lot of them 21:19:50 ... I'll try to write them down when I raise the issue 21:19:59 s/why ?/why the HTML rules don't work for SVG?/ 21:20:19 adjourned 21:20:23 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:20:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-svg-minutes.html nikos 21:41:24 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg