18:57:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:57:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-shapes-irc
18:57:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:57:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
18:57:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:57:40 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:57:41 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:57:41 <trackbot> Date: 18 February 2016
18:59:05 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.02.18
18:59:10 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
18:59:31 <pfps> pfps has joined #shapes
18:59:32 <Arnaud> regrets: simonstey, dimitris
18:59:35 <pfps> present+
18:59:47 <Arnaud> present+
19:00:52 <Arnaud> present+ kcoyle
19:01:14 <aryman> aryman has joined #shapes
19:01:50 <pfps> hello?
19:01:55 <aryman> present+ aryman
19:02:50 <hknublau> present+
19:03:36 <wippler> wippler has joined #shapes
19:04:50 <Labra> Labra has joined #shapes
19:05:56 <Labra> +present labra
19:06:31 <hsolbrig> hsolbrig has joined #shapes
19:06:55 <hsolbrig> what is the webex password?
19:07:55 <jamsden> jamsden has joined #shapes
19:07:59 <pfps> scribenick: pfps
19:08:10 <Arnaud> present +jamsden
19:08:35 <pfps> topic: Administrivia
19:08:46 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 11 February 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/02/11-shapes-minutes.html
19:08:55 <aryman> excellent scribing!
19:09:07 <pfps> minutes looked OK
19:09:21 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 11 February 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/02/11-shapes-minutes.html
19:09:35 <pfps> arnaud: next meeting next week
19:09:44 <pfps> topic: ISSUE-68
19:10:20 <pfps> arnaud:  I added pointers to last discussion of issues
19:10:42 <pfps> arnaud: there are some issues that have not had any discussion
19:10:50 <pfps> arnaud: we should try to look at them
19:10:54 <pfps> ISSUE-68
19:10:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-68 -- pre-binding not defined in SHACL spec -- open
19:10:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/68
19:11:20 <pfps> arnaud: the last time this was discussed was in July 2015
19:11:47 <pfps> arnaud: holger sent out an email with a proposal
19:12:16 <pfps> holger: I had conversations on this with Andy Seabourne (sp?)
19:12:53 <pfps> holger:  There needs to be something done - there is no formal definition of pre-binding in SPARQL
19:13:04 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-68:_Definition_of_Pre-Binding
19:14:08 <pfps> holger: initial bindings are supported in implementations
19:14:33 <pfps> holger: I don't see how to avoid something like pre-bindings
19:14:39 <ericP> TallTed, does virtuoso support pre-binding?
19:14:55 <ericP> q+
19:15:10 <Arnaud> present+ ericP
19:16:28 <pfps> holger: andy suggested to use an algebra specification, using the operators there to get the effect of pre-bindings
19:16:37 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:17:10 <pfps> eric: you could use bindings for this if you didn't rely on told b-nodes
19:17:49 <pfps> eric: if you don't use b-nodes then you could get by
19:18:03 <pfps> q+
19:18:17 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:18:51 <pfps> pfps: I don't think that this is the issue - this is not getting things in from the outside, it is for internal communication
19:19:15 <pfps> holger: we agreed not to support SPARQL endpoints
19:19:16 <pfps> q+
19:19:43 <pfps> arnaud: so this has not yet been addressed, there is a proposal
19:19:44 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:20:31 <pfps> pfps: we do depend on this quite a bit as the internal need it
19:20:56 <pfps> arnaud: it's not that the problem is not important, it's that it is not controversial
19:21:49 <pfps> pfps: the current stuff is very hand-waving, and this needs to be nailed down sometime
19:24:08 <aryman> q+
19:24:50 <pfps> pfps: it is possible that something in the SPARQL algebra works, I don't know whether ToMultiSet is the right thing
19:25:17 <pfps> arnaud: if that is the right thing then that could be put into the spec
19:25:22 <pfps> holger: OK
19:25:25 <Arnaud> ack aryman
19:25:40 <pfps> arthur: this is only an issue for the SPARQL binding
19:25:45 <pfps> holger: right
19:26:34 <pfps> arthur: this came up in SPARQL update, where they use SELECT clauses to get at blank node
19:26:55 <pfps> arthur: it seems to me that the nodes that we need to identify are accessible in this manner
19:27:18 <pfps> arthur: if you wanted to implement this on a remote endpoint then you could use this method
19:27:31 <pfps> holger: this would work sometimes
19:27:58 <pfps> arthur: holger will update the draft and we can see if the result is acceptable
19:28:12 <pfps> topic: ISSUE-92
19:28:15 <pfps> issue-92
19:28:15 <trackbot> issue-92 -- Should repeated properties be interpreted as additive or conjunctive? -- open
19:28:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/92
19:28:28 <pfps> s/arthur/arnaud/
19:28:45 <pfps> arnaud: there has been discussion on this topic
19:28:52 <aryman> q+
19:29:02 <Arnaud> ack aryman
19:29:05 <pfps> arnaud: we may not be able to get to the bottom of this today, but let's have an update
19:29:24 <pfps> arthur: our discussion had to do with meta-model aspects
19:29:48 <pfps> arthur: we have come to the conclusion to focus on the user-visible terms
19:30:10 <pfps> arthur: I have just rewritten the text to eliminate non-visible stuff
19:30:44 <pfps> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#PartitionConstraint
19:31:51 <pfps> eric: we have some amendmants to consider to match our needs
19:32:13 <pfps> arthur: what's the status
19:32:24 <pfps> eric: we are hoping to match this construct
19:32:29 <hknublau> q+
19:32:36 <pfps> eric: we have nestings of expressions to consider
19:33:41 <pfps> eric: we have arbitrary expressivity of groups,
19:33:50 <pfps> eric: we want to make nesting of expressions simple
19:33:50 <aryman> q+
19:34:03 <pfps> arnaud: that's encouraging
19:34:04 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:34:33 <pfps> holger: if we add this we also need to think about qualified cardinality expressions
19:35:05 <pfps> arnaud: at some point we should think about removing things that are not needed
19:35:12 <Arnaud> ack aryman
19:35:32 <pfps> arthur: peter - on the proposal page you voted -1
19:35:53 <aryman> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-92:_additive_repeated_properties
19:36:34 <pfps> pfps: at some point I will have to look at it again
19:37:40 <pfps> arnaud: I don't know if looking at this next week is doable
19:38:21 <pfps> topic: ISSUE-47
19:38:23 <pfps> issue-47
19:38:23 <trackbot> issue-47 -- Can SPARQL-based constraints access the shape graph, and how? -- open
19:38:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/47
19:38:39 <pfps> arnaud: we discussed this last week
19:39:13 <pfps> arnaud: in some cases it is not possible to access the shapes graph
19:39:48 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-47:_.24shapesGraph
19:39:49 <pfps> arnaud: there is a new proposal
19:40:14 <pfps> q+
19:40:39 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:41:19 <pfps> pfps: my action in this area was to come up with a counter proposal but I have been to busy to do so
19:41:46 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #shapes
19:42:32 <ericP> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-47, stating that: Not all execution environments can support $shapesGraph  access, just like not all platforms have to support SPARQL extensions in  general. However, for those environments that do, the spec should  define $shapesGraph access and clarify that it is an optional feature.  Implementations that do not support it may report a Failure. For the  core built-ins, these implementations may use alternative approaches  such as custom [CUT]
19:42:57 <Arnaud> s/custom [CUT]/custom SPARQL code generators but that is left as an  implementation detail. /
19:43:12 <hknublau> +1
19:43:17 <aryman> +1
19:43:18 <pfps> 0
19:43:20 <jamsden> +1
19:43:25 <ericP> 0
19:43:28 <hsolbrig> 0
19:43:29 <Labra> 0
19:43:29 <kcoyle> 0
19:44:55 <pfps> pfps: why all the 0's  people will use this feature
19:44:57 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-47, stating that: Not all execution environments can support $shapesGraph access, just like not all platforms have to support SPARQL extensions in  general. However, for those environments that do, the spec should  define $shapesGraph access and clarify that it is an optional feature.  Implementations that do not support it may report a Failure. For the  core built-ins, these implementations may use alternative approaches  such as custom SPARQL code generators but that is left as an  implementation detail.
19:46:18 <pfps> topic: ISSUE-121
19:46:18 <ericP> issue-121
19:46:18 <trackbot> issue-121 -- Should the SHACL owl:Ontology include the # character -- open
19:46:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/121
19:46:20 <pfps> issue-121
19:46:20 <trackbot> issue-121 -- Should the SHACL owl:Ontology include the # character -- open
19:46:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/121
19:46:34 <aryman> q+
19:47:05 <pfps> arnaud: there is a disagreement as to whether the # should be included
19:47:34 <pfps> arnaud: there is little guidance to be found elsewhere
19:47:57 <Arnaud> ack aryman
19:48:31 <pfps> arthur: the best practice document doesn't bear on this issue, as we have already agreed to use # URIs
19:48:57 <pfps> arthur: the document talks about whether to use # URIs or / URIs
19:49:52 <pfps> arthur: W3C vocabularies use # URIs, mostly, which allows for a single document
19:50:45 <pfps> arthur: the document says to use either a # or a slash at the end of the namespace names
19:50:56 <pfps> arthur: # URIs end up being simpler
19:52:11 <hknublau> q+
19:52:16 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: Should the SHACL owl:Ontology include the # character? Y/N
19:52:24 <pfps> arthur: the question is whether to include the # in the name of the ontology
19:52:28 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:53:03 <pfps> holger: I agree that the OWL ontology should be the base URI and that this should not have #
19:53:30 <pfps> holger: I asked Richard Cy... what the trend is, he says that the ontology does not not have #
19:53:52 <pfps> arthur: let's not have two URIs
19:54:07 <pfps> holger: W3C no longer uses that practice
19:54:18 <pfps> arthur: I don't care
19:54:55 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: Should the SHACL owl:Ontology include the # character? Y/N
19:54:58 <ericP> q+ to say that it depends on constellation size
19:55:12 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:55:12 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that it depends on constellation size
19:55:55 <pfps> eric: the decision on # or / depended on the size of the ontology, / for large
19:56:24 <ericP> Y
19:56:38 <pfps> ? - go with the flow
19:56:47 <hknublau> N
19:56:53 <hsolbrig> 0 (do not care)
19:56:55 <kcoyle> Y
19:57:00 <pfps> eric: it seems to me that it is easier of the prefix and the ontology are the same
19:57:19 <Labra> Y (0,5)
19:57:27 <Labra> N (0)
19:57:32 <aryman> aryman has joined #shapes
19:57:37 <aryman> dropped off
19:57:58 <pfps> holger: if we include # then we also need to include the imports statement
19:58:04 <aryman> please repeat the straw poll question
19:58:34 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: Should the SHACL owl:Ontology include the # character? Y/N
19:58:45 <aryman> Y
19:59:00 <jamsden> 0
19:59:22 <pfps> arnaud: more Y than N
19:59:33 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-121, the SHACL owl:Ontology include the # character
19:59:41 <aryman> +1
19:59:49 <hknublau> -0.9
19:59:49 <Labra> +0.5
19:59:50 <pfps> 0
19:59:51 <ericP> +1
19:59:54 <hsolbrig> 0
19:59:55 <jamsden> q+
20:00:01 <kcoyle> +1
20:00:10 <Arnaud> ack jamsden
20:00:29 <pfps> jamsden: I ran into this when building the OLSC vocabulary
20:00:50 <aryman> s/OLSC/OSLC/
20:01:23 <pfps> jamsden: i liked not having the # in the vocabulary name and having # at the beginning of the local names
20:01:39 <aryman> q+
20:01:52 <Arnaud> ack aryman
20:02:23 <pfps> arthur: for short URLs you can use relative URLs or CURIES
20:02:39 <ericP> q+
20:02:42 <pfps> arthur: is # allowed at the beginning of a CURIE?
20:02:53 <Arnaud> ack ericP
20:04:07 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-121, the SHACL owl:Ontology include the # character
20:04:42 <pfps> topic: ISSUE-99
20:04:48 <pfps> issue-99
20:04:48 <trackbot> issue-99 -- special treatment of rdfs:Resource and rdf:List in sh:valueClass (and possibly elsewhere) -- open
20:04:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/99
20:05:11 <pfps> arnaud: there was a proposal on the proposals page on this issue
20:05:42 <hknublau> q+
20:05:45 <pfps> arnaud: I would like to get more eyes on this
20:05:47 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
20:07:33 <pfps> holger: this is about whether sh:valueClass should work for lists that are untyped and other special cases
20:08:38 <Arnaud> pfps: completely disagree, why treating lists any differently? what's so special about them?
20:08:50 <pfps> pfps: there is nothing special about lists
20:09:04 <pfps> pfps: we have decided not to use inferencing
20:09:43 <pfps> holger: but Turtle doesn't put type statements on lists
20:10:14 <aryman> q+
20:10:43 <Arnaud> pfps: this is the result of not doing inferencing
20:11:16 <Arnaud> pfps: this is just adding to the ugliness
20:11:20 <Arnaud> ack aryman
20:11:43 <pfps> arthur: what is the semantics of the collection construct
20:11:55 <pfps> eric: just a bunch of triple - not the type triple
20:12:15 <pfps> arthur: I think that this indicates a special treatment of lists
20:12:31 <pfps> q+
20:12:41 <Arnaud> ack pfps
20:13:17 <pfps> pfps: then the way to go is to have special syntax in SHACL for lsits
20:13:31 <aryman> sounds promising
20:13:32 <pfps> eric: agreed
20:13:37 <aryman> what do you propose?
20:14:08 <pfps> pfps: i guess it is on me
20:14:45 <pfps> ACTION pfps: proposal for lists
20:14:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Proposal for lists [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2016-02-25].
20:15:19 <pfps> topic: ISSUE-105
20:15:22 <pfps> issue-105
20:15:22 <trackbot> issue-105 -- SHACL SPARQL constraints depend on namespaces in a graph, which is not defined -- open
20:15:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/105
20:15:43 <pfps> arnaud: peter raised this issue
20:15:51 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-105:_Defined_prefixes
20:16:02 <pfps> holger: I have a proposal on the proposals page
20:16:32 <pfps> q+
20:16:46 <pfps> pfps: this is a major change to how SHACL works
20:16:47 <Arnaud> ack pfps
20:17:20 <aryman> q+
20:17:23 <pfps> pfps: SHACL used to take RDF graphs and now it takes something else
20:17:27 <Arnaud> ack aryman
20:17:59 <pfps> arthur: I am both worried about and sympathetic to this proposal
20:18:47 <hknublau> q+
20:18:57 <pfps> arthur: within files there are prefixes, most processors remember these prefixes
20:19:14 <pfps> arthur: holger is saying that we should take advantage of this
20:19:47 <pfps> arthur: if the SHACL processor uses a prefix that is not in the RDF graph document
20:19:56 <pfps> q+
20:20:21 <pfps> arthur: but if there is a prefix in the document then that can be used
20:20:49 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
20:21:08 <pfps> holger: I don't think that this is changing much
20:22:13 <pfps> holger: this can be done in a pre-processing stage
20:22:48 <pfps> holger: we could also have a triple linking
20:22:50 <Arnaud> ack pfps
20:23:26 <hknublau> q+
20:24:08 <pfps> pfps: this requires a 1-1 correspondence between SHACL inputs and documents, which is a bad idea
20:24:11 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
20:24:29 <aryman> aryman has joined #shapes
20:24:35 <pfps> holger: if prefixes were part of RDF then that would be the best solution
20:25:14 <pfps> holger: at a certain stage you have to have assumptions on how the data was processed
20:25:27 <aryman> q+
20:25:36 <pfps> holger: if there are conflicting prefixes then the engine can throw an error
20:25:42 <Arnaud> ack aryman
20:25:54 <pfps> q+ to argue against pre-defined prefixes
20:26:17 <pfps> arthur: in OSLC we have triples for the prefixes
20:26:57 <pfps> arthur: when you print a graph you want to use CURIEs so we put triples in the file to give preferred prefixes
20:27:05 <aryman> # Triples needed for code generation (to be deleted prior to final publication) <#process-prefix> a <http://open-services.net/ns/core#PrefixDefinition> ; 	<http://open-services.net/ns/core#prefix> "sh" ; 	<http://open-services.net/ns/core#prefixBase> sh: .
20:27:49 <pfps> arthur: the advantage here is that they only have to be done once and we are in an RDF world
20:28:18 <pfps> arthur: any prefix in the SPARQL would override this
20:28:37 <Arnaud> ack pfps
20:28:38 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to argue against pre-defined prefixes
20:30:11 <pfps> pfps: I actually don't have any particular problem with special syntax that injects prefix declarations into the generated SPARQL
20:30:31 <pfps> .....
20:31:40 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
20:31:40 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:31:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pfps, Arnaud, kcoyle, aryman, hknublau, ericP, hsolbrig, jamsden, labra
20:31:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:31:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
20:31:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:31:49 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-shapes-actions.rdf :
20:31:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pfps to proposal for lists [1]
20:31:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-shapes-irc#T20-14-45