IRC log of aria on 2016-02-18

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17:31:08 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-irc
17:31:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
17:31:10 [Zakim]
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17:31:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
17:31:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:31:13 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:31:13 [trackbot]
Date: 18 February 2016
17:31:13 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Rich
17:31:21 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:31:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
17:31:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
17:31:58 [tzviya]
present+ Tzviya
17:32:38 [mck]
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17:32:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0293.html
17:33:34 [cyns]
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17:34:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
17:34:23 [fesch]
present+ fesch
17:35:12 [clown]
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17:35:19 [mgylling]
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17:36:26 [clown]
present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
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17:37:35 [clown]
scribenick: clown
17:38:41 [JF]
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17:38:52 [clown]
TOPIC: CfCs
17:39:11 [clown]
RS: the proposed for action 1672 had gone out after resolution.
17:39:14 [clown]
RS: it has passed.
17:39:37 [clown]
RS: all the deprecated text for aria-grabbed and aria-dropeffect has gone through.
17:39:46 [clown]
JD: I have put in the new text.
17:40:02 [clown]
TOPIC: Combobox ACTION-1490
17:40:31 [clown]
MK: First, let's limit the scope to the structure and relationships within the combobox.
17:40:42 [clown]
MK: Nothing about focus nor active descendant.
17:40:56 [mck]
<input role=combobox type=text aria-owns=list /> <ul role=listbox id=list> </ul>
17:41:07 [clown]
MK: The aria 1.0 structure is as above.
17:41:39 [clown]
RS: There was a second one where the combobox was a container of a textbox and a listbox.
17:41:44 [clown]
MK: Let's take that up later.
17:41:54 [clown]
MK: The first form have a number of issues.
17:42:11 [clown]
MK: First, as Bryan has raised regarding value.
17:42:19 [mck]
<div role=combobox aria-owns=list contenteditable> </div> <ul role=listbox id=list> </ul>
17:42:33 [clown]
MK: If you use an input type text, you get the value for free.
17:43:00 [clown]
MK: If you use the second form, there is no value.
17:43:06 [MichielBijl]
regrets+ MichielBijl
17:43:18 [clown]
q+ to point out the FF still might give a value to the comboxo in the second form.
17:43:51 [clown]
MK: From a screen read perspective, both of these end up with one widget, even though on screen there are two things (textbox, listbox)
17:44:00 [mgylling]
present+ Markus_Gylling
17:44:07 [cyns]
q+ to say that I think it's undefined whether the value is still available in the first example, and it is at least not interoperably implemented
17:44:15 [clown]
MK: The SR can't see it as two items.
17:44:24 [bgaraventa1979]
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17:44:40 [clown]
MK: So, two problems; Value and composite nature.
17:44:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:44:47 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:45:26 [mck]
<div role=combobox> <span role=textbox> </span> <ul role = listbox> </ul> </div>
17:45:52 [clown]
MK: One more example: screen reader developers like this because it's how native combobox work. (Pastes in example).
17:46:09 [clown]
MK: Notice in this pattern, there is no need for aria-owns.
17:46:18 [mck]
<div role=combobox aria-owns=list> <span role=textbox> </span> </div> <ul id=list role = listbox> </ul>
17:46:42 [clown]
MK: And, you could always make it like this with aria-owns (Pastes in another example).
17:47:34 [clown]
MK: First, then, focussing on this structure: is there consensus that the spec should reflect the latter two examples?
17:47:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:49:01 [tzviya]
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17:50:17 [clown]
JS: I believe FF puts in a value for the combobox even in the case not using a text input field.
17:50:22 [clown]
JS: But, I'd have to check.
17:50:35 [clown]
MK: Even with contentediable
17:52:24 [clown]
JS: Points out that the two composite examples were out there in early versions of the spec.
17:52:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:52:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack clown
17:52:41 [Zakim]
clown, you wanted to point out the FF still might give a value to the comboxo in the second form.
17:52:46 [clown]
MK: Well, we still want to allow for the input version, for legacy apps.
17:53:21 [clown]
CS: We have a native combobox — two kinds.
17:53:32 [clown]
CS: Win32 that looks like the container example.
17:53:41 [clown]
CS: Then there is XAML
17:54:08 [clown]
CS: The XAML combobox are an edit control with a controllerFor relationship to a list.
17:54:22 [clown]
MK: It sounds like you still have two accessibles.
17:54:25 [clown]
CS: We do.
17:54:45 [clown]
MK: That particular structure is in ARIA and the web world.
17:54:54 [clown]
MK: But the screen reader developers are rejecting.
17:55:17 [clown]
MK: The engjineers are aware of the XAML structure, but do not like it.
17:55:25 [clown]
CS: Well, narrator supports it.
17:55:52 [clown]
MK: I don't see a mapping issue if people use the second form.
17:56:02 [clown]
CS: We might miss the controlling relationship.
17:56:18 [clown]
MK: But you could do it based on the mark up and infer the controlling relationship.
17:56:37 [clown]
CS: We might be able to do that, I would hold that in reserve since we might find bugs.
17:56:45 [jongund]
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17:57:11 [jongund]
present+ jongund
17:57:13 [clown]
MK: But, we don't want authors to be responsible for crafting the markup exactly, but leave it to the browser to map appropriately.
17:57:25 [clown]
CS: I think we might be about to do that, but let me check.
17:57:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:57:43 [mck]
q?
17:57:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:57:48 [clown]
CS: I think I can do it, but I must talk to devs first.
17:57:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack cyns
17:57:48 [Zakim]
cyns, you wanted to say that I think it's undefined whether the value is still available in the first example, and it is at least not interoperably implemented
17:58:21 [clown]
MK: The next part is to talk about focus management. But we only have 3 minutes.
17:58:41 [clown]
MK: I would like to modify ACTION-1490 branch with the above discussion in mind.
17:58:41 [cyns]
I'm going to drop off now
17:58:57 [clown]
RS: We will continue this next week then.
17:59:38 [mck]
scribe: mck
18:00:05 [mck]
TOPIC: Test harness
18:00:16 [mck]
RS: I started on this
18:00:38 [mck]
rs: we need to tell people where exit criteria are documented
18:00:49 [mck]
jf needs it among others
18:00:58 [mck]
mc: i can recreate the url. will take a min
18:01:28 [MichaelC]
-> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd Draft ARIA 1.1 exit criteria
18:01:39 [JF]
Q+ to ask to be reminded of the new mailing list for the test-harness activities
18:01:43 [mck]
rs: side note, joanie, i posted comments on link type
18:02:07 [mck]
jf: new e-mail for test effort. what is that?
18:02:33 [JF]
ack JF
18:02:33 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask to be reminded of the new mailing list for the test-harness activities
18:02:36 [MichaelC]
-> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/communication List of email lists
18:02:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-test/
18:03:14 [mck]
mc: on the aria wg home, there is a communications section that includes mailing lists where it is listed.
18:03:22 [clown]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
18:03:28 [MichaelC]
-> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/ ARIA Test Harness
18:03:46 [mck]
rs: do we want to test properties on every role for the new attribs
18:03:57 [mck]
mc: no, it is not feasible for every combination
18:04:13 [mck]
mc: some props are for only one role
18:04:24 [mck]
mc: globals we only test on a sample subset
18:05:08 [mck]
jf: getting 404 for the list
18:05:29 [clown]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/specs?spec_id=5
18:05:34 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/specs?spec_id=3
18:05:43 [mck]
mc: related to test harness not being complete.
18:06:12 [mck]
mc: commenting out those links for now
18:07:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd
18:07:17 [clown]
Look for "Exit Criteria"
18:07:37 [mck]
RS: JF look at this link. this is all the stuff needs test cases
18:08:01 [mck]
question: are the people who work on JF's india team, do they understand ax apis?
18:08:14 [mck]
jf: they have a working command of that
18:08:42 [mck]
rs: could they look at the aria spec and write a test ssample and that look at the maaping specs to write a test for each platform.
18:08:49 [mck]
jf: I think yes
18:08:59 [fesch]
q+
18:09:07 [mck]
jf: might be good to get people together on a call and work through an example
18:09:32 [mck]
rs: there are already examples in there. I'd have they try to write a couple.
18:09:45 [clown]
Test cases for ARIA 1.0: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=1
18:10:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4
18:10:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=4&testcase_id=75
18:10:37 [mck]
rs: providing an example
18:10:52 [mck]
rs: show expected results for each platform
18:11:33 [mck]
this needs to be done for each of the exit criteria for each of the new features
18:11:41 [mck]
jg: we can do some
18:11:54 [mck]
jg: is name description and grouping part of it?
18:11:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
18:12:17 [mck]
rs: there are test cases needed for accname
18:12:42 [mck]
rs: this is only what changed, not everything.
18:12:48 [mck]
probably need another coordination call
18:13:02 [mck]
would also like Joseph, the King of AccName!
18:13:41 [mck]
Joseph: there are no substantial changes to accname
18:13:51 [mck]
we did remove express mapping
18:13:56 [mck]
rs: need them for UIA
18:14:10 [mck]
Joseph: we might have them but didn't use them before.
18:14:17 [mck]
rs: when is a good time for a call?
18:14:40 [mck]
jf: 2 people in india, early morning is best. before 9:30 austin.
18:14:49 [mck]
rs: make a doodle pole?
18:14:52 [JF]
+1 to a Doodle poll
18:14:59 [mck]
mc: that's fine
18:15:36 [mck]
Fred: svg aam is using a wiki page for testable statements and then use a script to load into db
18:15:58 [mck]
rs: we can look at that.
18:16:15 [mck]
need names from people on india team.
18:16:23 [mck]
compiling list of names to pole
18:16:42 [MichielBijl]
regrets- MichielBijl
18:16:48 [MichielBijl]
present+ MichielBijl
18:16:53 [mck]
jf: My team is going to need some management direction.
18:17:06 [fesch]
here are the SVG AAM test assertions https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions
18:17:10 [mck]
I can help with that. But, we should have a primary coordinator.
18:17:25 [mck]
RS: not sure I have the cycles to do it personally.
18:17:52 [mck]
jf: I can try and help. these are new people. Unrealistic to expect them to be complete self starters.
18:18:51 [mck]
TOPIC: aria-details
18:18:53 [clown]
action-2018
18:18:53 [trackbot]
action-2018 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify issue1009 text to ensure that aria-details does not aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation -- due 2016-02-18 -- OPEN
18:18:53 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2018
18:18:58 [mck]
action-2018?
18:18:58 [trackbot]
action-2018 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify issue1009 text to ensure that aria-details does not aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation -- due 2016-02-18 -- OPEN
18:18:58 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2018
18:19:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue1009/aria/aria.html#aria-details
18:19:25 [mck]
This proposal also removes describedat
18:19:46 [mck]
rs: still have to deal with visibility in dpub
18:20:16 [mck]
joseph: there is a note about single element referencing. that is not in the text.
18:20:28 [mck]
joseph: wording in 2nd paragraph.
18:20:34 [mck]
rs: easy fix
18:21:10 [tzviya]
q+
18:21:10 [mck]
rs: Is this acceptable proposal for CFC?
18:21:14 [clown]
+1
18:21:21 [joanie]
+1
18:21:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:21:29 [mck]
q?
18:21:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack fesch
18:21:34 [fesch]
ack
18:22:48 [mck]
not raised with dpub yet.
18:23:46 [mck]
rs: we have a week, if there are only minor comments, we wouldn't need another cfc.
18:24:01 [mck]
marcus: i'm optomistic
18:24:37 [mck]
RESOLUTION: Accept aria-details proposal with editorial change to refer to a single element.
18:25:32 [mck]
TOPIC: Link type proposal
18:25:33 [clown]
action-2006
18:25:33 [trackbot]
action-2006 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft proposal for new aria-linktype attribute for group review -- due 2016-01-27 -- OPEN
18:25:33 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2006
18:25:36 [mck]
action-2006?
18:25:36 [trackbot]
action-2006 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft proposal for new aria-linktype attribute for group review -- due 2016-01-27 -- OPEN
18:25:36 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2006
18:26:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-2006/aria/aria.html#aria-linktype
18:26:13 [mck]
Joanie: no longer excited about this idea. just kept ruling all the use cases as not necessary.
18:26:26 [tzviya]
q+
18:26:31 [mck]
Joanie: not sure that this anything to with aria-details
18:27:00 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:27:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
18:27:27 [mck]
Joanie reads spec text.
18:28:07 [tzviya]
q-
18:29:16 [mck]
Joanie: I made up some enumerated type values
18:29:37 [mck]
rs: what broght this up is in dpub
18:29:50 [mck]
they have new roles that are all forms of links
18:30:44 [mck]
dpub was adding roles. this is an alternative to more roles. it is like a subrole.
18:30:46 [mgylling]
q+
18:31:16 [mck]
Joanie: I am not sure we need this in core. I am not opposed to it. But do not necessarily see the value outside DPUB
18:31:51 [mck]
RS: I think there could be cases outside DPUB, like in the case of details.
18:31:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:32:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack mgylling
18:32:19 [mck]
Marcus: Joanie, why are not not hinking is generally useful?
18:33:20 [mck]
Joanie: I use the platform API to parse the link and figure out things like samepage and mailto or file of size.
18:33:45 [mck]
Joanie: this new attribute doesn't save any work as a screen reader dev. I can still do these things without it.
18:34:07 [mck]
Marcus: Is this generally useful to screen reader users?
18:34:19 [mck]
Joanie: without this feature, I still provide all this information.
18:34:30 [mck]
rs: how do you do it for details or footnote?
18:34:35 [tzviya]
q+
18:34:40 [mck]
Joanie: I do not handle those cases.
18:34:51 [mck]
this could be good for that.
18:35:08 [mck]
rs: I think having it in the main spec is valuable. Links are everywhere.
18:35:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:35:35 [mck]
Tzviya: It is possible this is a way to future proof for annotations.
18:36:03 [mck]
rs: are people against having a link type?
18:36:14 [mck]
mb: what is the point of linktype?
18:36:35 [mck]
rs: In the aria dpub spec, there are lots of roles like links that do thing like point to biblio entry.
18:36:43 [mck]
we want to avoid proliferation of roles.
18:36:52 [mck]
if you are AT user you want to know it is a link
18:37:13 [mck]
It is also useful to know what type it goes to.
18:37:39 [mck]
mb: VoiceOver already does something like this.
18:37:54 [mck]
mb: it says things like "internal link"
18:38:40 [MichielBijl]
<div id="foo">
18:38:43 [mck]
am I muted?
18:38:45 [MichielBijl]
<a href="#foo">
18:38:57 [mck]
how do i unmute
18:39:05 [mck]
unmute me
18:40:26 [mgylling]
q+
18:40:37 [jamesn]
q+ to say probably need something to say if it is internal or not
18:41:04 [mck]
rs:Michiel, you understand the concept?
18:41:17 [mck]
mb: yes, not sure we need it. but I will read more.
18:42:38 [mck]
Joanie: i included the note about roledescription because there is a distinct difference. roledescription has to be localized by the author. linktype is enumerated.
18:43:08 [mck]
screen reader can programatically use the value of linktype because it is an enumeration.
18:43:26 [mck]
but in some way it is similar. We don't want authors to use them interchangeably.
18:43:44 [clown]
+1 to joanie's suggestion to fully describe the machine-readable difference between linktype and description.
18:43:54 [mck]
rs: whatever DPUB has in their spec, please include here.
18:44:37 [mck]
Joanie: I don't think the core needs all the DPUB values
18:44:56 [mck]
Modules extend core and not all th dpub values are generally useful.
18:44:57 [tzviya]
q-
18:45:55 [mck]
rs: I would let dpub define the reference values
18:46:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:46:46 [mck]
tzviya: Based on what AT devs are syaing, this isn't generally useful. Is that what we are asking?
18:46:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:47:09 [jamesn]
q-
18:47:13 [mck]
rs: No, there is not a way for an AT to know something is a link to a footnote or biblio.
18:47:30 [mck]
Marcus: perhaps we could subclass it like we do with roles
18:47:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack mgylling
18:47:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:47:48 [mck]
Joanie: you cant' subclass vluaes
18:48:17 [mck]
Joanie: core would have a short list of values. DPUB would just have more values unique to DPUB.
18:48:45 [mck]
Joanie: knowing that something is a link to a footnote might be useful in html.
18:49:35 [mck]
Marcus: I don't think keeping reference as a value in core would hurt our table in dpub.
18:50:07 [mck]
What is the problem with having more of the DPUB values in core?
18:50:53 [mck]
Rich, please unmute me
18:51:50 [mck]
I did, but rich seems to have me muted again, I unmuted my mic
18:56:06 [mck]
MK: I see value in having more of the DPUB value in core.
18:56:12 [mck]
rs: I am not opposed to that.
18:56:35 [mck]
Marcus: we do have a worry that collective set of value is spread across documents.
18:56:47 [joanie]
q+ To ask if the consensus is remove "reference" and add "footnote" to core
18:56:58 [mck]
marcus: If we could put all the value in core, than that would be fine too.
18:58:56 [mck]
Marcus: do we use prefixes on the values
18:59:37 [mck]
joanie: we don't want some that havewhere you need prefixes and others where you don't
18:59:48 [mck]
tzviya: we have only 4 values now
19:01:18 [mck]
MK: why do you have to prefix values
19:01:34 [mck]
rs: agree, we do not need to prefix values
19:01:48 [mck]
it is not part of our extension module requirements.
19:01:57 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
19:02:06 [mck]
rrsagent, make log public
19:02:29 [mck]
rs: add the DPUB values to the core proposal.
19:02:34 [ShaneM]
+1 to no prefixes on values
19:02:40 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
19:02:49 [mck]
zakim, bye
19:02:49 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Tzviya, fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Markus_Gylling, Bryan_Garaventa, jongund, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, MichielBijl
19:02:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
19:03:06 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/18-aria-minutes.html mck
19:07:49 [ShaneM]
personally I would prefer noteref (dovetails with new elements). But can live with either
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