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17:28:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/11-aria-irc
17:28:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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17:29:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
17:29:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
17:29:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:29:01 <trackbot> Date: 11 February 2016
17:29:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:29:15 <CB> present+ CBAveritt
17:29:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
17:29:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:30:14 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
17:33:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0194.html
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17:35:04 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
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17:35:44 <fesch> scribe: fesch
17:36:33 <fesch> Topic: ARIA working group decision policy
17:36:57 <fesch> rs: done,     drag and drop ends tonight
17:37:12 <fesch> Topic: Action-2006
17:37:19 <fesch> action-2006
17:37:19 <trackbot> action-2006 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft proposal for new aria-linktype attribute for group review -- due 2016-01-27 -- OPEN
17:37:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2006
17:37:24 <mgylling> Present+ Markus
17:38:32 <fesch> jd: one question- do we want to allow a free text type, leaning toward no, want enumeration... reason - AT doesn't know what it is... DPUB can extend enumeration
17:38:41 <mgylling> q+
17:38:49 <fesch> jd: is there a use case for a free text type?
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17:39:29 <fesch> rs: wouldn't AT users go crazy if they didn't know what the link type was?
17:39:51 <fesch> jd: I think they wanted a role description - which would be free text
17:40:15 <fesch> jd: then we will go with an enumerated type and DPub can extend it?
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17:40:42 <fesch> cs; you could have a custom type
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17:41:26 <fesch> markus: we need enumerations, no use case for free text...
17:42:08 <fesch> markus: by extending the enumeration - you mean that we could extend it in the DPub module, that is a requirement...
17:42:11 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:42:21 <fesch> rs: we thought we would give it some values to start...
17:42:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/11-aria-minutes.html clown
17:42:38 <fesch> markus: would you start with the DPub answers?
17:43:38 <fesch> jd: gives an example of why we might want to have some that are not DPub specific, thinking more of screen readers and web apps... for the core spec
17:44:02 <fesch> jd: then stuff like glossary could be defined in DPub Module
17:44:33 <fesch> markus: would aria-linktype have hyphenated values?
17:45:06 <fesch> markus: my thought is we would need it here (avoid name collisions)
17:45:18 <fesch> rs: we would have to come up with a prefix for values....
17:45:43 <fesch> markus: we could continue using doc- and the core ones naked (no prefix)
17:46:18 <fesch> markus: if you need input/suggestions on types for the core type - we would be happy to suggest core types
17:46:35 <fesch> jd: I would leave out glossary out of core...
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17:47:02 <JF> Present+ JF
17:47:18 <fesch> jd: very relative to DPub... comments, footnotes... would be in core, may have a branch to look at tomorrow
17:47:51 <fesch> cs: annotations -how does that sync with the annotations proposal we had a few years ago?
17:48:13 <fesch> rs: that was for ARIA 2, would have to look at it...
17:49:03 <fesch> jd: I have thought about types....  annotations I have thought about and they are parallel and not dependent on one another (link type)
17:49:09 <mgylling> there’s also https://www.w3.org/annotation/
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17:49:26 <fesch> cs: I thought the proposal had link types in it as well...
17:49:40 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:50:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Cynthia look at annotation overlap with aria-linktype
17:50:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2017 - Look at annotation overlap with aria-linktype [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2016-02-18].
17:51:24 <fesch> clown: is this proposal for ARIA 1.1 - (yes) so we need mapping -
17:51:41 <fesch> cs: I would probably use UIA annotations,
17:51:54 <fesch> clown:  AAXAPI....
17:52:02 <fesch> rs: will have to circle back...
17:52:09 <clown> s/AAXAPI/AXAPI/
17:52:25 <fesch> Topic: ARIA describedat
17:52:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue1009/aria/aria.html#aria-details
17:52:52 <fesch> rs: what do you call this thing since there is a relationship
17:53:01 <mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Publisher_requirements_for_extended_descriptions
17:53:14 <fesch> rs: we have describedby and folks are used to using it...
17:53:49 <fesch> rs: note aria-describedat is removed in this branch... reads ...
17:55:03 <fesch> rs: one of the requirements for DPub was it may need to pull in other resources, and you don't want to stringify it... joanie suggested the name (aria-details)
17:55:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:55:20 <mgylling> ack me
17:55:29 <clown> q+ to ask a couple of questions.
17:55:41 <fesch> rs: Marcus does this meet your needs?
17:56:28 <fesch> markus: looks like a good start... provides a structured description ... reusable ...
17:56:38 <JF> Q+
17:56:44 <fesch> rs: could use an iframe, media source....
17:57:02 <fesch> clown: actually has an id so a name/anchor would link to it
17:57:15 <fesch> markus: is an idref...
17:57:36 <fesch> markus: can I use it with an anchor?
17:57:45 <fesch> clown: yes,. explaination
17:58:00 <fesch> clown: but you would load the entire page
17:58:33 <fesch> markus: not restricted to what you point to, it has to be visible, you cant hide it -
17:59:11 <fesch> clown: if you are using details, then the contents would be hidden only see the summary... the summary is what you click on to open and close
17:59:35 <fesch> clown: actual contents can be hidden using a details element...
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18:00:38 <fesch> mk: it sounds like details refer to a visible element, not that the details are visible?
18:00:43 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
18:00:51 <cyns> q+ to ask about potential mapping conflicts
18:01:25 <fesch> rs: it can be hidden, but in order to expose to AT, you must be able to make it visible
18:02:13 <fesch> rs: you could have a  media-query that hides something (layout small) however if you make it visible then it can be exposed to AT
18:02:40 <fesch> rs: dpub wants to be able to hide stuff, but be able to make it visible if you wish...
18:02:54 <fesch> clown: so a user could set what they want to see
18:03:02 <MichielBijl> present+ MichielBijl
18:03:04 <fesch> jf: what about the sighted user?
18:03:41 <fesch> rs: this would be something an ebook would turn on, not AT - keyed by user preference before the page is loaded
18:04:07 <fesch> mk: what about this AT case?
18:04:36 <fesch> rs: if it is hidden wont be mapped at all... so user agents need to check if the referred to content is visible
18:04:54 <fesch> clown: that will slow down user agents
18:04:55 <ShaneM> q?
18:05:21 <fesch> mk: media query would have to remove the attribute....
18:05:40 <fesch> mk: how hard is it for a user agent to see if an id exists...
18:06:09 <fesch> clown: mozzilla doesn't check ids...
18:06:29 <fesch> cs: cant require a browser walks a tree...
18:07:17 <fesch> fesch: what about ids off screen?
18:07:31 <fesch> mk: unlikely case...
18:07:50 <fesch> rs: can you talk about your team about this
18:07:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:08:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack clown
18:08:01 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask a couple of questions.
18:08:21 <fesch> clown: want to ask - aria details does not participate in the aria name computation...
18:08:41 <ShaneM> "For the avoidance of doubt, aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation."
18:08:59 <fesch> clown:   make explicit it doesn't participate in name and description calc
18:09:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich modify issue1009 text to ensure that aria-details does not  aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation
18:09:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2018 - Modify issue1009 text to ensure that aria-details does not  aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-02-18].
18:09:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> a?
18:09:57 <fesch> rs: want people to review this... first look.... will revisit
18:09:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:10:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack JF
18:10:21 <JF> http://static-api.visually.netdna-cdn.com/media/images/v3/portfolio/infographics/portfolio-1-infographic-cvs.jpg
18:10:30 <fesch> jf: uses case you mentioned i get... but infographic case...
18:11:10 <fesch> jf: would get push back if we have to have all that text visible on page
18:11:55 <fesch> jf: at some point... it becomes kludgy... not everyone is on bleeding edge
18:11:56 <mgylling> Might be good to include an example of aria-details that links to an external file
18:12:07 <mgylling> s/an example/another example
18:12:24 <fesch> jf: don't see how we can address that...
18:12:54 <fesch> <note no one mentioned longdesc>
18:13:15 <fesch> jf: infographic in a textbook...
18:13:21 <fesch> rs: longdesc...
18:13:45 <ShaneM> q+ to ask what the datatype of aria-details is?
18:13:46 <JF> ack JF
18:14:03 <fesch> marcus: maybe have a second example with an external ref
18:14:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack cyns
18:14:03 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to ask about potential mapping conflicts
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18:14:17 <fesch> cs: does this need to be mapped...
18:14:23 <fesch> rs: just a relationship
18:14:31 <fesch> rs: new relationship
18:14:42 <janina> present+ janina
18:14:45 <fesch> cs: don't want new relationship
18:15:27 <fesch> mk: I don't think you would want to reuse an existing relationship - otherwise we would load confusion on existing relationship
18:15:36 <clown> detailsFor/detaileddby ?
18:15:39 <fesch> cs: we already have generic relationships
18:15:59 <fesch> cs: team is providing pushback - a bigt deal
18:16:09 <fesch> s/bigt/big/
18:16:26 <fesch> cs: folks think it is more complicated
18:17:12 <fesch> mk: is it hard to have a name, description and details - is it overload?
18:18:21 <fesch> rs: other option - can have a describedby with multiple relationships with an indicator, if it can handle not being stringified...
18:18:40 <fesch> mk: one gets stringified and the other doesn't ...
18:19:26 <fesch> mk: what if they both mapped to the description relationship, can you put a property on the relationship to tell the user
18:19:43 <fesch> cs: no, a description is a property - doesn't have properties
18:20:26 <fesch> cs: in the current API we have the describedby not the string
18:21:06 <fesch> cs: my concern is if had both describedby and details which would win
18:21:35 <fesch> rs: Marcus  were you envisioning having details and describedby?
18:21:58 <fesch> marcus: sounds like an uncommon case...
18:22:53 <fesch> rs: we have been calling this an extended description and don't want to stringify it... I never liked multiple descriptions... then you could have one or the other...
18:23:07 <fesch> mk: then if you have both, we say details wins
18:23:12 <fesch> cs: OK
18:23:30 <fesch> rs: I will modify to be clear that we only have one mapping...
18:23:30 <janina> +1
18:23:57 <fesch> clown: your example had both :(
18:24:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich modify aria-details to state that it wins over describedby and also to provide example with an anchor
18:24:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2019 - Modify aria-details to state that it wins over describedby and also to provide example with an anchor [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-02-18].
18:24:26 <ShaneM> q?
18:24:49 <fesch> sm: what is the datatype? it is a ifref
18:24:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack ShaneM
18:24:49 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask what the datatype of aria-details is?
18:25:08 <fesch> s/ifref/idref/
18:25:43 <fesch> mk: put it in the table below that it takes a single idref
18:26:35 <clown> action-2018
18:26:35 <trackbot> action-2018 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Modify issue1009 text to ensure that aria-details does not aria-details does not participate in accessible name computation -- due 2016-02-18 -- OPEN
18:26:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2018
18:26:42 <fesch> Topic: action items
18:30:21 <fesch> stefan: part of the mission was to look at role descriptions, why don't we have attribute descriptions - should discuss one more time -
18:31:07 <clown> action-1560
18:31:07 <trackbot> action-1560 -- Stefan Schnabel to Email list with discussion of on/off value labels (maybe valuetext?) and extending value descriptions to other controls -- due 2016-02-10 -- OPEN
18:31:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1560
18:31:23 <fesch> rs: would be a big job, too much for ARIA 1.1
18:32:41 <fesch> action-1687
18:32:41 <trackbot> action-1687 -- James Nurthen to Get authoring practices guidance on use of aria-errormessage, including use cases for live region or not -- due 2015-07-23 -- OPEN
18:32:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1687
18:33:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:33:56 <fesch> action-1713
18:33:56 <trackbot> action-1713 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Talk to gion kunz (chartist.js maintainer) and ask him about what roles/properties would make sense … -- due 2015-09-04 -- OPEN
18:33:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1713
18:35:34 <fesch> action-1723
18:35:34 <trackbot> action-1723 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Editorial - create sections listing the roles that provide (1) nameFrom:author and (2) nameFrom:contents -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
18:35:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1723
18:37:02 <fesch> action-1731
18:37:02 <trackbot> action-1731 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose model for deprecation statements on individual features, with replacement and future plans guidance -- due 2015-10-14 -- OPEN
18:37:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1731
18:38:29 <clown> action-1730
18:38:29 <trackbot> action-1730 -- Michael Cooper to Draft ¨deprecated¨ section for conformance section of spec -- due 2015-10-14 -- OPEN
18:38:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1730
18:40:10 <fesch> action-1742
18:40:10 <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1742 does not exist.
18:40:12 <clown> action-1743?
18:40:12 <trackbot> action-1743 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Put aria-activedescendant on application and request wg review -- due 2015-11-26 -- OPEN
18:40:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1743
18:41:03 <fesch> action-2004
18:41:03 <trackbot> action-2004 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Create proposal for password role -- due 2016-01-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:41:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2004
18:41:55 <fesch> rs: James Craig wanted security to be talked to...  rather have someone in the browsers... Cynthia?
18:42:53 <fesch> cs: actually my suggestion... I can talk to them... only issue if characters aren't hidden...
18:43:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Cynthia check with Edge security people to see if there is a security issue with using role password
18:43:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2020 - Check with edge security people to see if there is a security issue with using role password [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2016-02-18].
18:43:38 <jamesn> q+ to say I talked to security folks aabotu whether this was a real requirement
18:44:46 <fesch> jn: I talked to our security folks, why the want to do this... dev want to stop password managers...
18:45:16 <fesch> jn: they want people to not be able to use password managers
18:45:30 <fesch> rs: a role will not stop password managers...
18:46:03 <fesch> rs: we could add text in there that using a password fields offers greater security...
18:46:08 <fesch> cs: not sure it does
18:46:40 <fesch> mb: ARIA complement to HTML...
18:46:47 <jamesn> ack me
18:46:47 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say I talked to security folks aabotu whether this was a real requirement
18:46:54 <fesch> action-20056
18:46:54 <trackbot> Sorry, but action-20056 does not exist.
18:46:59 <fesch> action-2005
18:46:59 <trackbot> action-2005 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Solicit input regarding making default spinbutton values more consistent with the defaults for HTML5's input type="number" -- due 2016-01-21 -- OPEN
18:46:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2005
18:47:18 <fesch> jd: did that, skimming over it...
18:47:41 <fesch> jd: this was blocking another action...
18:48:17 <fesch> jd: somewhere there is another action somewhere about values...
18:48:30 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0058.html
18:48:32 <fesch> js: slider requires max and min, spin button doesn't
18:48:49 <clown> issue-1002
18:48:49 <trackbot> issue-1002 -- Spin Button default values inconsistent with HTML5 -- open
18:48:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1002
18:51:24 <jamesn> q+ to ask where this is in the HTML5 spec to say that missing equates to negative& positive infinity?
18:51:28 <fesch> cs: we use min and max  for low high optimal...
18:52:07 <fesch> cs: we have a meter, we implement the value and range pattern...
18:52:32 <fesch> we map meters to a string... but do both the range pattern and value pattern
18:52:45 <bgaraventa1979> +q
18:53:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jamesn
18:53:02 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask where this is in the HTML5 spec to say that missing equates to negative& positive infinity?
18:53:19 <cyns> q+ to say that number doesn't have to be a spin button. That is implementation specific
18:53:58 <fesch> mk: in none of the other aria specs do we express infinity?
18:54:17 <fesch> jd: we were going to add text to say do what HTML does...
18:54:35 <fesch> jn: so what does it map a spinbutton?
18:54:54 <fesch> cs: can be a text field...
18:55:28 <fesch> rs: we modified text on max and min...
18:55:29 <joanie> action Joanmarie to draft text for default max and min spinbutton values
18:55:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2021 - Draft text for default max and min spinbutton values [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-02-18].
18:56:04 <fesch> bg: what about a spinbutton that uses aria-valuetext?
18:56:09 <joanie> associate aaction-2021 with issue-1002
18:56:16 <joanie> associate action-2021 with issue-1002
18:56:16 <trackbot> action-2021 (Draft text for default max and min spinbutton values) associated with issue-1002.
18:57:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:58:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack bgaraventa
18:59:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack cyns
18:59:07 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that number doesn't have to be a spin button. That is implementation specific
18:59:52 <fesch> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:59:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/11-aria-minutes.html fesch
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