, but we need to also encourage aria-labelledby & aria-describedby to create the links to that alt text for user agents that don't do it automatically. 18:25:26 <AmeliaBR> Fred: But do screen readers read text inside the SVG? Not in my testing. 18:25:45 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: They mostly do for inline code, but only with the extra ARIA roles & attributes. 18:25:57 <AmeliaBR> Fred: OK, if that's true it makes sense. 18:26:16 <AmeliaBR> Jason: And it means we're future-proofed for when the browsers do support SVG accessibility. 18:26:19 <fesch> action-2001 18:26:19 <trackbot> action-2001 -- Amelia Bellamy-Royds to Draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty. -- due 2016-01-22 -- OPEN 18:26:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2001 18:27:01 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: I haven't done this yet, but I should be able to this week. Same for the other 2 actions. 18:27:58 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: These are all clean-ups in response to Joanie's issues. 18:27:58 <fesch> action-2006 18:27:59 <trackbot> action-2006 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Create AAM for Graphics Module -- due 2016-01-25 -- OPEN 18:27:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2006 18:28:50 <fesch> Topic: actions pending review 18:28:58 <AmeliaBR> Rich: I was working on this yesterday. Need to fix all the build scripts within the specs. Shouldn't be too bad, since there are only three roles. 18:29:38 <AmeliaBR> s/Topic: actions pending review// 18:30:02 <fesch> action-1664 18:30:02 <trackbot> action-1664 -- Fred Esch to Change the inheritence in role=“graphicaldoc” from document to structure -- due 2016-02-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:30:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1664 18:30:08 <AmeliaBR> Rich: We also need to update the SVG spec & our SVG-AAM regarding available roles for elements to include the new roles 18:30:51 <AmeliaBR> ACTION: Rich to Update SVG-AAM and SVG 2 to include the new roles from the ARIA Graphics Module 18:30:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2010 - Update svg-aam and svg 2 to include the new roles from the aria graphics module [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-02-16]. 18:31:09 <fesch> action-1664 18:31:09 <trackbot> action-1664 -- Fred Esch to Change the inheritence in role=“graphicaldoc” from document to structure -- due 2016-02-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:31:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1664 18:31:35 <AmeliaBR> TOPIC: Actions to review 18:32:05 <fesch> action-1746 18:32:05 <trackbot> action-1746 -- Fred Esch to Work on developing test cases for svg 2 accessibility & svg-aam -- due 2015-12-04 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:32:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1746 18:32:22 <AmeliaBR> Fred: I made the change as a commit. Will close action 1664 if no problems 18:33:29 <AmeliaBR> Fred: for 1746, it's part of a bunch of actions related to the test cases. I would like to close off the actions. 18:34:06 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: We need to make plans to properly review these test cases, but I think you've covered your action of drafting them. 18:34:38 <AmeliaBR> Fred: I think Chaals has an open action to review test cases. Should we create a new action for someone else? 18:34:48 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions 18:34:53 <AmeliaBR> Jason: Can you summarize what's new about these test cases? 18:35:21 <AmeliaBR> Fred: They are all on the same wiki page, or a new page for "language-dependent" tests. 18:35:37 <fesch> action-2009 18:35:37 <trackbot> action-2009 -- Fred Esch to Create testable statements with multiple title/desc elements -- due 2016-02-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:35:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/2009 18:36:51 <AmeliaBR> Fred: These are examples with multiple title or desc. They assume that the environment is set to prefer English. 18:37:25 <AmeliaBR> ... But I haven't got any examples in there of multiple title/desc where some don't have any lang. I'm not sure if we need those. 18:37:43 <AmeliaBR> Jason: Would it take the language of the surrounding document? 18:38:25 <AmeliaBR> Fred: I think so, based on the browser environment. But that's a good question: can you put a lang on <svg>? 18:38:44 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: You can with xml:lang, but these are good questions & may need clarification in the SVG spec. 18:39:36 <AmeliaBR> Fred: for the test so far, I don't make any assumptions about document language, and I'm only testing for English browser environment. 18:40:13 <chaals> [I do have an action to review. Please Fred also look at the stuff in http://github.com/SVG-access-W3CG - there are two repos there that have tests, and some results too] 18:40:48 <AmeliaBR> Rich: If lang isn't specified, shouldn't it look to the nearest ancestor? 18:42:22 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: It should, but I'm not sure it's clearly specced how that should interact with the language swapping features. Fred, do you want to review the SVG 2 spec & identify areas where behavior isn't clearly specced? 18:42:35 <AmeliaBR> Fred: I can, I was hoping some of you might know the behavior. 18:42:47 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: I haven't looked recently, but I don't think it's explicitly addressed. 18:43:47 <AmeliaBR> ACTION: Fred to review SVG 2 section on multi-lingual title/desc & identify any under-specified conditions or edge cases 18:43:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2011 - Review svg 2 section on multi-lingual title/desc & identify any under-specified conditions or edge cases [on Fred Esch - due 2016-02-16]. 18:44:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 18:44:44 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: I'm sure the SVG team will appreciate. I don't think anyone's tried to implement it yet. 18:45:58 <AmeliaBR> Fred: Joanie brought up an issue with recursive -labelledby or describedby 18:46:09 <fesch> Topic : Amelia clarified textPath should be treated like tspan in the AAM 18:47:01 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: When was this? The last call? 18:47:34 <AmeliaBR> Fred: Not really sure, just wanted to record whether anyone had any concerns with that. 18:47:46 <shepazu> present+ shepazu 18:47:59 <AmeliaBR> If not, can we log a proper resolution. 18:48:15 <AmeliaBR> s/If not/Fred: If not/ 18:49:01 <AmeliaBR> Doug: textPath should be treated like tspan 18:49:25 <AmeliaBR> Rich: I think we already sorted that out. 18:49:51 <shepazu> agenda+ focus in SVG2 18:50:16 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: Issue came up during discussion of default roles of text elements, but this is all separate from the ARIA role="text", which has complications. 18:51:46 <AmeliaBR> RESOLUTION: <textPath> and <tspan> should be treated equivalently, as presentational elements unless the author has added explicit alternative text or interactive features 18:52:09 <fesch> Topic: Global ARIA attributes and SVG 18:53:10 <AmeliaBR> Fred: I've been asked to make tests for other ARIA features, such as aria-flowto. Or test what happens if someone adds a click listener. 18:53:52 <AmeliaBR> ... does that force the element into the accessibility tree? 18:54:18 <AmeliaBR> Jason: I think it should, otherwise why was it added? 18:54:33 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: That's what we agreed, except for role=none. 18:55:51 <AmeliaBR> ... except for the obligatory role=none elements, like filter elements, which don't represent anything on the screen. 18:56:04 <AmeliaBR> Jason: What about aria-hidden="true" 18:56:23 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: That to, the normal rules apply to exclude it from the accessibility tree. 18:56:34 <AmeliaBR> ... My open actions include cleaning up this language. 18:57:13 <AmeliaBR> Doug: Can we maybe wait until the editor has presented revised text, rather than trying to write it via a telcon? 18:57:49 <AmeliaBR> Rich: I would follow what we do with ARIA, for cases where an element has interaction but no role, make it a group or something. Except for elements that are never mapped. 18:58:30 <shepazu> q+ 18:58:35 <AmeliaBR> Fred: Will there be consistency issues with other specs? 18:59:07 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: We'll try to avoid that. Point is to clarify priority between rules for including and for excluding elements. 18:59:23 <AmeliaBR> TOPIC: Focus management section in SVG 2 19:00:04 <AmeliaBR> Doug: At the SVG F2F, it was suggested that we remove the text on focus management in SVG 2, and instead just reference the HTML spec section. 19:00:37 <AmeliaBR> ... This is good if it improves consistency for implementation, but bad if there aren't 1-to-1 mappings that you can clearly interpret. 19:00:56 <AmeliaBR> ... We need to review & make sure exceptions are clearly marked. 19:01:27 <AmeliaBR> Rich: I wrote that section & found a number of little inconsistencies. It will be messy if they have to be marked one at a time. 19:03:28 <AmeliaBR> ... If they want to have a consistent spec, it should be its own focus management module that isn't defined around HTML. 19:05:43 <fesch> rrsagent, draft minutes 19:05:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-svg-a11y-minutes.html fesch 19:07:55 <AmeliaBR> Amelia: We can create a careful list of exceptions, where SVG is different from HTML, and present that to SVG WG. Then decide whether to include that as spec or the net prose after the exceptions are integrated. Both are useful for implementers & authors. 19:08:39 <AmeliaBR> Rich: That's re-doing a lot of work from a few years ago, taking time away from other projects. 19:09:18 <AmeliaBR> Doug: I agree, but we need to convince people these differences are important. 19:10:28 <AmeliaBR> Rich: I would still like to do this right, have a single over-riding module. 19:10:56 <AmeliaBR> Doug: I don't think there will be openness to delaying until that happens, unless we are willing to draft that spec ourselves. 19:13:20 <fesch> rrsagent, draft minutes 19:13:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-svg-a11y-minutes.html fesch 19:19:01 <AmeliaBR> Doug: Let's talk more about focus next week. 19:19:34 <AmeliaBR> rrsagent, make log public 19:19:42 <AmeliaBR> rrsagent, draft minutes 19:19:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-svg-a11y-minutes.html AmeliaBR 19:29:35 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has left #svg-a11y 19:39:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 21:27:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 22:00:08 <chaals> chaals has joined #svg-a11y 22:15:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 22:34:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 23:41:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y

18:10:24 RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y 18:10:24 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/09-svg-a11y-irc 18:10:26 RRSAgent, make logs ab 18:10:28 Zakim, this will be 18:10:28 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 18:10:29 Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 18:10:29 Date: 09 February 2016 18:10:56 chair: fesch 18:11:04 scribe: AmeliaBR 18:11:27 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Feb/0006.html 18:11:40 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/ 18:11:42 present+ fesch, AmeliaBR, richardschwerdtfeger, jasonjgw 18:12:00 TOPIC: Overdue Actions 18:13:10 action-1705 18:13:10 action-1705 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Talk with at vendors about how they can present axis structures -- due 2015-08-28 -- OPEN 18:13:10 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/actions/1705 18:14:08 Fred: that can be moved for now. Jason, what about the Gamepad API figure (ACTION-1753) 18:15:29 Jason: I'm not sure what else I can do. I'd need to collaborate with someone who can give a full description. 18:15:55 Fred: For all these requests for better figures in spec, how do we want to handle it given the current state of SVG accessibility in browsers? 18:16:52 Jason: We at least need to make sure that all the information is in the file. But maybe we also need to link to an alternative description. 18:17:03 chaals1 has joined #svg-a11y 18:17:48 Fred: We can use described by in the SVG, but I'm not sure that's going to be read by a screen reader. These figures are inline, so there's no image alt attribute. 18:18:21 Jason: I think figure and figcaption have appeal. 18:18:41 Amelia: Many of these have visible figcaption, which is separate from an alternative description. 18:19:09 Jason: It would be nice to have the alternative in the SVG code itself, so it's easy to copy it into a separate file. 18:20:11 Fred: For the GamePad figure, it doesn't have visible caption at all, it's just the text in the figure. There's a prose equivalent in the main spec text, but no specific description. 18:20:27 Jason: Certainly, if there is any essential syntax, it needs to be in the main document. 18:20:51 s/GamePad figure/media queries figure/ 18:23:49 Amelia: We need to recognize the difference between , inline , we only have alt, no detailed structure. Could recommend authors switch to