15:32:15 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:32:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-tt-irc 15:32:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:32:17 Zakim has joined #tt 15:32:19 Zakim, this will be TTML 15:32:19 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:32:20 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:32:20 Date: 04 February 2016 15:33:25 pal has joined #tt 15:34:43 scribe: nigel 15:34:56 Present: Harold, Glenn, Mike, Pierre, Nigel 15:35:00 Regrets: Frans 15:35:04 chair: nigel 15:35:09 Topic: This Meeting 15:35:27 Present+ Philippe 15:37:01 nigel: Goes through agenda. AOB? 15:37:08 dae has joined #tt 15:37:09 plh: I have an Emmy update. 15:37:22 present+dae 15:37:48 pal: One specific topic: roadmap to PR for IMSC 1. I'd like to take 15 minutes to create a roadmap. 15:37:58 Present+ dae 15:38:04 s/present+dae// 15:38:24 Present+ Andreas 15:38:43 plh: Also charter 15:39:13 Topic: Action Items 15:40:14 action-429? 15:40:14 action-429 -- Mike Dolan to Draft a wg note for the profile short name registry and ttml media type registration -- due 2015-10-08 -- OPEN 15:40:14 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/429 15:41:05 action-429: [TTWG meeting 2016-02-04] First draft now on github; also Andreas added a further column on the wiki page that needs to be included in the draft, for how to find profile information. 15:41:05 Notes added to action-429 Draft a wg note for the profile short name registry and ttml media type registration. 15:41:13 atai has joined #tt 15:41:18 Present+ David 15:41:41 action-447? 15:41:41 action-447 -- Glenn Adams to Send pierre the list of which scripts are simple and which are complex. -- due 2015-11-06 -- OPEN 15:41:41 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/447 15:42:13 action-447: [Meeting 2016-02-04] This has been resolved in the text and no longer needs to be done. 15:42:13 Notes added to action-447 Send pierre the list of which scripts are simple and which are complex.. 15:42:16 close action-447 15:42:16 Closed action-447. 15:42:26 action-455? 15:42:26 action-455 -- Glenn Adams to Update ttml2 spec/readme to include config for keyword replacement. -- due 2016-01-28 -- OPEN 15:42:26 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/455 15:44:09 action-455: [meeting 2016-02-04] Nigel made the change but discovered the ant commands don't behave as expected; Glenn observed the same thing. 15:44:09 Notes added to action-455 Update ttml2 spec/readme to include config for keyword replacement.. 15:44:31 close action-455 15:44:31 Closed action-455. 15:44:53 Topic: Emmy update 15:46:18 plh: [off the record update] 15:47:59 Topic: Charter 15:48:20 plh: I should have mentioned this a few weeks ago - we should have sent the charter for review by the end of this week already. 15:48:39 ... We are not giving away extensions anymore. The AB has made this clear. The minimum I can do is take the 15:48:53 ... current charter, send it to the AC for review. If you want to make more changes I'd like to know what those are. 15:49:07 pal: Is it possible to post it, give folks a week to comment and then close this next week? 15:49:13 https://www.w3.org/2014/03/timed-text-charter.html 15:49:16 plh: Of course! 15:49:33 ... I'll put this current charter into a github repo before the end of this call and people should make PRs to it and 15:49:48 ... comments and let me know what needs to be changed. I hope that we can send it to W3M for approval in the next 2 weeks, 15:49:55 ... and to AC for review before the end of the month. 15:50:00 nigel: Sounds good to me. 15:50:25 ... Thanks for the kick Plh, it's been in the back of my mind for a couple of months! 15:50:45 plh: I'll send a message to the list also because obviously others need to be aware of it. 15:51:08 nigel: Thanks, let's work on this on github and return to the conversation next week. 15:51:45 Topic: Profiles registry 15:52:11 for the charter, see https://github.com/w3c/charter-drafts/ 15:52:11 https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry 15:52:30 http://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/timed-text-charter-2016.html 15:52:34 mike: Andreas updated the wiki so those edits should be moved over to github. 15:52:47 ... Folks ought to take a look at it. It needs a bit more work on the rules for adding and changing things. 15:52:52 ... Other than that it looks okay to me. 15:53:37 atai: I'll transfer the information from the wiki to github as a first step. 15:54:17 mike: Thanks Thierry for setting up the HTML page on github 15:54:43 nigel: That's the first action on this then, and then the next action will be for everyone to review it. 15:55:45 Topic: IMSC Test Suite 15:56:02 pal: There are a number of related PRs regarding the test suite. Unless someone has an issue with them I would like 15:56:20 ... to merge all of them following this call. A quick overview: 15:56:43 ... This is in response to bugs and enhancements suggested both to the formal test suite and additional tests 15:57:09 ... In particular I'd like to point to PR #145 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/145 15:57:26 ... And PR #149 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/149 which addresses an issue from PR #140 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/140 15:57:48 ... which unfortunately broke compatibility with EBU-TT-D. PR #149 intends to correct that. I've not heard significant 15:57:55 tmichel has joined #tt 15:58:05 ... concerns with these. Fixing the bugs that were introduced is really important so I'd like to proceed following the call. 15:58:08 +1 15:58:42 glenn: Yes from me. 15:58:49 nigel: Fine for me. 15:58:54 pal: Okay thank you so I will do that. 15:59:18 Topic: IMSC 1 Issue #111 15:59:43 pal: We seem really close so can we try to do this in 10 minutes. 15:59:55 glenn: I thought so, but there were changes made that I'm not happy with. 16:00:16 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/111 16:00:45 pal: I posted an updated proposal just before the call. 16:01:10 present+ tmichel 16:02:31 nigel: I'm concerned that the different proposals don't share a lot of words. As Editor, Pierre can you take us through? 16:03:09 glenn: I don't want to solve a determination of what profile a document instance conforms to. 16:03:21 ... What I'm proposing is to determine a profile to be used in processing a document. The document instance may 16:03:25 ... not conform to that. 16:03:32 +1 16:03:40 pal: Okay and that sounds fine with me. 16:04:05 glenn: Pierre and I had some offline discussion and I thought we were extremely close to some common language 16:04:12 ... but the latest update seems to be radically different. 16:04:33 pal: Okay I apologise for that - I didn't wish to introduce radical differences. 16:04:47 glenn: I also want to point to the multiple resolved profiles issue - it needs to be singular. 16:05:01 pal: On the second one I want to understand what happens if a document signals conformance to more than one 16:05:12 ... profile e.g. using documentConformsToStandard.. 16:05:33 glenn: Yes, could be. The profile that the processor uses is always a single profile ultimately. 16:06:18 pal: Okay so going back to the proposal from 11 hours ago the first paragraph permits the processor to pick a 16:06:29 ... single profile out of many. Is that correct? 16:06:36 glenn: No there could be more than one. 16:06:50 pal: But the resolved profile is just one. 16:07:13 glenn: The process ultimately comes to a single resolved profile. The initial step can generate a set of profiles. 16:08:00 glenn: The first paragraph describes the goal via the input information and the ultimate result, a single resolved profile. 16:08:43 ... The paragraphs that follow show how that is achieved. 16:08:55 nigel: The second paragraph doesn't allow for multiple profiles being signalled. 16:08:59 pal: That's my point. 16:09:10 glenn: So could you explain how they could be signalled? 16:09:28 pal: ebuttm:documentConformsToStandard can have multiple values. 16:09:40 nigel: Or there could be more than one ttp:profile elements with different use attributes. 16:10:13 glenn: Okay I didn't notice that. 16:10:23 atai: You're still talking about an IMSC processor, correct? 16:10:47 pal: Thanks for raising that. As I read that it's a processor that supports IMSC I and/or IMSC T and also possibly other profiles. 16:11:03 atai: I thought we were just looking for IMSC I or IMSC T. 16:11:25 pal: I think Glenn's proposal covers profiles outside IMSC. I think that text would be best in the core TTML document by the way. 16:11:42 glenn: The intent of that text is to be neutral on the subject of processors that support multiple profiles. 16:12:09 ... The answer could be IMSC-T, IMSC-I or undefined, from my text. It's not intended to handle a 4th answer that may be some other profile. 16:12:34 pal: Looking at the last comment on the thread... 16:12:44 https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/111#issuecomment-179898471 16:13:03 pal: The first paragraph needs to change 'conforms to' to 'uses' or equivalent. 16:14:08 nigel: I'm not sure the second paragraph addresses the multiple profile indication issue either. It's random which 16:14:13 ... profile the processor will choose. 16:14:25 pal: It shouldn't matter which is chosen. 16:14:39 glenn: But the document may be lying and not any of the signalled profiles. 16:15:22 pal: But that's off the reservation. 16:16:00 nigel: My concern is that if we allow a random choice then it's possible that the presentation may be different depending on which profile is chosen, and that's a random choice so we don't achieve interoperability. 16:16:17 atai: There's no way to signal preference so I think what Pierre says is right. 16:16:34 glenn: Looking at "If one of the resolved profile is a profile supported by the Processor, then the Processor SHOULD process the document instance according to the resolved profile." 16:16:50 ... and one of the profiles is TTML1 and the processor chooses that then we've jumped outside the intent of this material. 16:17:06 ... The algorithm that I proposed previously always chooses one of the IMSC profiles or undefined. I'm not happy that 16:17:25 ... this proposal is allowed to produce a different profile that's outside the scope of this context. 16:18:21 pal: I don't want to be bound by IMSC if there's something else better that my processor can do later. 16:18:55 glenn: That's outside the scope of this. Say for example that the document claims TTML2 and IMSC-T and I choose TTML2. 16:19:16 ... Now we're outside the IMSC processing space. 16:19:24 ... The intent is to work within the IMSC processing space. 16:21:24 glenn: We could change to "If it chooses a non-IMSC profile then this specification no longer applies" then that would address my concern. 16:22:14 nigel: My concern is if presentation would differ depending on the chosen profile. Consider a document that signals 16:22:23 ... both IMSC-T and EBU-TT-D. Would it make a difference? 16:23:46 pal: I'll take the ball on this. Can we discuss after this meeting. 16:23:53 nigel: We need to spend some time on PR planning too. 16:24:07 nigel: I'll leave the call open so the conversation can continue. 16:24:17 Topic: Transition to PR planning to IMSC. 16:24:23 pal: What are the criteria? 16:24:40 tmichel: Firstly to meet the PR exit criteria. Glenn's recent input is very good news because now all the tests have 16:24:55 ... two implementations passing so we have fulfilled 100% our CR exit criteria. 16:25:09 ... Furthermore Glenn says that early March he will provide another implementation so that could be considered as 16:25:12 https://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/#rec-pr 16:25:30 tmichel: a third independent implementation. Anyway we are already fine. Then we have to wait for the end of CR 16:25:43 ... which is set until Feb 28 I think. We cannot move to PR before early March. 16:25:49 pal: And we have to resolve issues. 16:26:09 nigel: Don't we also have a requirement to resolve issues? 16:26:26 plh: Yes there is always a requirement to resolve issues, but you can always make the case to the Director if you demonstrate 16:26:33 ... that the issue doesn't have to be addressed. 16:26:42 pal: The goal in my mind is to resolve or defer all issues. 16:26:45 nigel: +1 16:27:03 plh: You guys already have plans to work on IMSC 2 so you might decide to defer for the sake of the timeline. 16:27:11 pal: Yes we've done that already in the past. 16:27:30 plh: Another consideration is normative dependencies. I guess you don't have a problem but the Director will look 16:27:36 ... at those and how stable they are. 16:27:40 pal: I think we're good on that. 16:27:45 tmichel: That's clear. 16:28:21 pal: Any objection to moving to PR on Feb 28th or as soon as possible after? 16:28:41 nigel: Do we not need to issue a new CR depending on the resolution of the issues? 16:28:55 glenn: That's up to the group. I'm probably going to be happy with not doing a 4th CR but incorporating into a PR. 16:29:24 plh: If you make substantive changes you won't have a choice - because of the patent implications then you have to move to a new CR. 16:29:37 ... There's a way to prevent the call for exclusions from getting in the way via your AC rep. 16:29:57 ... As it is today the Director will force you to wait until the end of the Call for Exclusions at the end of March. 16:30:10 pal: So you're saying that we cannot transition to PR until eof March? 16:30:27 plh: The Director could decide to start the PR review e.g. mid-March, knowing that the CfE would run out before the 16:30:55 ... AC has to give the final answer. So I would not worry too much about that. The CfE is likely to end before the PR. 16:31:26 ... If you get every single AC rep of this WG to waive their rights for exclusion then you can skip it for a new CR. 16:32:18 q+ 16:32:59 pal: I'd like to set a goal for us to make a concerted effort to make resolutions that are not substantive changes. 16:33:22 plh: I agree that the perfect is the enemy of the good-enough. 16:33:45 pal: I want to clarify that if there are bugs we should definitely fix them but I'd like to encourage us to make an effort 16:34:05 ... to try to move towards PR at the end of Feb and if we hit an insurmountable object then we'll deal with it. 16:34:06 ack plh 16:34:37 david: I just need to bring in our perspective. There are other groups working on other standards. We're working really 16:34:45 +1 to what pierre said 16:35:09 ... hard to achieve a unified standard, so if this splits then the industry that's waiting for us will move on and we'll 16:35:20 ... end up with fractures, not what we want, a unified subtitle specification. 16:35:36 ... Netflix wants us to get IMSC 1 adopted as soon as possible. 16:36:02 mike: I think the same can be said from ATSC and CEA/CTA. I think it's really important that this work advance, 16:36:21 ... although don't do anything unnatural. This ought to move as reasonably as expeditiously possible to Rec. It's 16:36:34 ... growingly inconvenient that this isn't published. 16:37:02 ... Just echoing my colleague from Netflix there that we need to get to publication. 16:37:29 glenn: I just wanted to indicate that as far as I know none of the current issues involve a new feature. They are 16:37:31 should we file an issue for TTML2 and initial? 16:37:49 glenn: semantic clarifications. In the past we have considered those to be non-substantive. 16:38:01 s/should we file an issue for TTML2 and initial?// 16:39:56 atai has left #tt 16:40:11 nigel: We're out of time so I'll adjourn now. Thanks very much for a very productive meeting everyone. [adjourns meeting] 16:40:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:40:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:56:28 i|Topic: Profiles|plh: http://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/timed-text-charter-2016.html 16:58:54 i|pal: Okay and|[above +1 was from nigel] 17:01:40 i|glenn: I just wanted to indicate|nigel: It seems that we're all in agreement that we want to publish as soon as possible. 17:01:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:01:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:03:01 s|http://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/timed-text-charter-2016.html|| 17:03:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:03:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:04:00 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:04:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:04:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:59:54 tmichel has joined #tt 18:36:51 Zakim has left #tt