IRC log of aapi on 2016-02-02

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19:37:23 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:37:23 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/02-aapi-irc
19:37:25 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
19:37:25 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #aapi
19:37:27 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
19:37:27 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
19:37:28 [trackbot]: Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:37:28 [trackbot]: Date: 02 February 2016
19:37:43 [clown]: chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:39:41 [clown]: agenda?
19:39:43 [clown]: agenda: this
19:39:52 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-2009 (Cynthia) Update of UIA mapping for role main.
19:40:00 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- latest from Alex.
19:40:11 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph/Cynthia/Jason) Add to section on AAPI differences highlighting the features of UIA.
19:40:22 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps.
19:40:31 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error".
19:40:42 [clown]: agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
19:40:57 [clown]: agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
19:41:12 [clown]: agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
19:41:46 [clown]: agenda+ be done.
19:42:36 [clown]: clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 09–Feb-2016)
19:56:26 [clown]: present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:59:32 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/02-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:00:25 [joanie]: present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
20:00:31 [clown]: regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:00:35 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/02-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:01:15 [joanie]: present+ Bryan_Garaventa
20:02:12 [joanie]: scribe: joanie
20:03:23 [bgaraventa1979]: bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:03:41 [clown]: q?
20:03:48 [bgaraventa1979]: present+ Bryan_Garaventa
20:10:29 [cyns]: cyns has joined #aapi
20:10:32 [joanie]: present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:10:38 [joanie]: Zakim, take up item 1
20:10:38 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "ACTION-2009 (Cynthia) Update of UIA mapping for role main." taken up [from clown]
20:10:49 [joanie]: action-2009
20:10:49 [trackbot]: action-2009 -- Cynthia Shelly to Update UIA mapping for role="main" (GitHub issue #238) -- due 2016-02-08 -- PENDINGREVIEW
20:10:49 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2009
20:10:55 [joanie]: JS: This is a fresh action.
20:11:09 [joanie]: JS: I saw yesterday that Cynthia made some requests to the mapping of role="main".
20:11:09 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-main
20:11:17 [joanie]: JS: I did it this morning. See the above URL.
20:11:52 [joanie]: CS: Looks good. Thanks.
20:12:10 [joanie]: JS: I'm going to close the action; I'll let you (Cynthia) close the GitHub action.
20:12:15 [joanie]: CS: Is it checked in?
20:12:19 [joanie]: JS: Yes.
20:12:41 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:12:41 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- latest from Alex." taken up [from clown]
20:12:43 [joanie]: action-1531
20:12:43 [trackbot]: action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:12:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531
20:12:55 [joanie]: JS: The continuing saga of role="text"
20:13:03 [clown]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0151.html
20:13:12 [joanie]: JS: I asked Alex about the mapping for role="text" for IA2.
20:13:18 [joanie]: JS: (See above URL)
20:13:24 [joanie]: JS: Alex says he's ok with that.
20:13:45 [joanie]: JS: But he also wants there to be the accessible text implementation on both IA2 and ATK.
20:14:06 [joanie]: JS: Alex did point out that he didn't like this as there will be instances where accessible text doesn't apply.
20:14:20 [clown]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0151.html
20:14:23 [joanie]: JS: I pointed out to Alex that Jamie had said he could handle both instances.
20:14:33 [joanie]: JS: Alex then asked why UIA's mapping was different.
20:14:37 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
20:14:39 [joanie]: JS: I'm reading from the above URL.
20:14:53 [joanie]: JS: It looks like UIA mapping is to the text pattern.
20:15:05 [joanie]: s/text pattern/text control pattern/
20:15:15 [joanie]: JS: So I'm wondering if Cynthia could reply to Alex's question.
20:15:22 [joanie]: CS: This mapping is what we'd do for a span.
20:15:37 [joanie]: CS: When we map something as text, it doesn't become its own separate text control pattern.
20:16:00 [joanie]: CS: Unless it has a property (like a tabindex) necessitating it be exposed as a seperate accessible object.
20:16:12 [joanie]: CS: So basically for role="text" you're taking the semantics off.
20:16:27 [joanie]: CS: Which is somewhat different from role="presentation".
20:16:53 [joanie]: JS: I think that this is essentially what the other platforms are doing.
20:17:07 [joanie]: CS: I don't like the fact that role="text" removes all the tags.
20:17:09 [clown]: <table role="text"> ... many rows, columns, and cells ... </table>
20:17:13 [joanie]: JS: I agree.
20:17:23 [joanie]: JS: I replied to Alex that I shared his misgivings.
20:17:27 [joanie]: JS: See above example.
20:17:42 [joanie]: CS: I still don't understand why we need both role="presentation" and role="text".
20:18:15 [joanie]: JS: With role="presentation", at least the block level elements are preserved; this is not the case for role="text", which becomes one big string.
20:18:33 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
20:18:40 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation
20:18:41 [joanie]: CS: So from a practical point of view, role="text" turns things into spans; role="presentation" turns them into divs?
20:18:45 [joanie]: JS: I believe so, yes.
20:18:59 [joanie]: CS: For UIA, there's not going to be a functional difference.
20:19:09 [joanie]: CS: And I think having both is going to potentially confuse people
20:20:12 [joanie]: JS: (Reads from original proposal)
20:20:21 [joanie]: CS: So the behavior is different for images?
20:20:35 [joanie]: CS: I'm not sure what we do with presentational images.
20:21:08 [joanie]: CS: But it seems like role="text" on an image will take the alt text and expose it like the span-like contents.
20:21:45 [joanie]: BG: Presentation applied to form fields don't cause the form fields to go away.
20:22:02 [joanie]: JS: I think if the element has an event on it, or one of the globals, presentation is ignored.
20:22:10 [joanie]: JS: I don't think role="text" has that caveat.
20:22:14 [joanie]: CS: That's scary.
20:22:17 [joanie]: JS: Yes it is.
20:22:31 [joanie]: CS: For UIA, we could tweak it slightly wrt the name calculation.
20:22:52 [joanie]: CS: Right now, presentation doesn't run name calculation.
20:23:36 [joanie]: CS: But if you had button with a title, or an image with alt text, the underlying string would not get added for name calculation.
20:23:46 [joanie]: CS: In the case of role="text", perhaps it should.
20:24:06 [clown]: cyns, we lost you on webex.
20:25:38 [clown]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/435
20:25:51 [cyns]: UIA: Text Control Pattern. Run name calculation, and add the resulting string to the text pattern for the overall page, at the point where the element occurred.
20:26:03 [joanie]: JS: (Reads some of the comments from issue-435)
20:27:23 [joanie]: JD: We'll I agree with the misgivings, but for the record, this is not going to require Orca have a virtual buffer.
20:28:07 [clown]: http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#text
20:28:23 [joanie]: JS: (Reads from spec)
20:29:05 [joanie]: JS: It includes role="presentation"/"none" as an alternative for authors wishing to keep some of the elements.
20:29:35 [joanie]: JS: And it's a SHOULD -- not a MUST -- for interactive controls.
20:29:54 [joanie]: CS: Can we add an issue to have the same exemptions on role="text" that we have on role="presentation"?
20:29:58 [joanie]: JS: I think we should.
20:30:15 [joanie]: JS: And I think it should be in the spec. We can also add something to the AAM, but....
20:30:29 [joanie]: CS: This is an issue in the spec. The text would need to be added to the spec.
20:30:43 [joanie]: CS: This would make me feel less concerned about role="text".
20:30:52 [joanie]: s/The text would/The statement would/
20:31:05 [clown]: proposed issue text: For role="text", there needs to be requirements on user agents for overrides, such as controls, events, and other global aria properties, like there is for role="presentation".
20:31:24 [joanie]: CS: Looks good to me.
20:31:27 [clown]: ISSUE: For role="text", there needs to be requirements on user agents for overrides, such as controls, events, and other global aria properties, like there is for role="presentation".
20:31:28 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-1011 - For role="text", there needs to be requirements on user agents for overrides, such as controls, events, and other global aria properties, like there is for role="presentation".. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1011/edit>.
20:33:23 [joanie]: JS: Are you still going to email Alex?
20:33:25 [joanie]: CS: Yes.
20:33:34 [joanie]: CS: I'll include the issue and ask him if it helps.
20:33:45 [joanie]: JS: Do you want me to add that mapping?
20:33:48 [joanie]: CS: Yes.
20:34:11 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:34:11 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph/Cynthia/Jason) Add to section on AAPI differences highlighting the features of UIA." taken up [from clown]
20:34:17 [joanie]: action-1569
20:34:17 [trackbot]: action-1569 -- Jason Kiss to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN
20:34:17 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
20:34:22 [joanie]: action-1585
20:34:22 [trackbot]: action-1585 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add to the section on differences among aapis highlighting the features of uia. -- due 2016-01-15 -- OPEN
20:34:22 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1585
20:34:40 [joanie]: JS: I was trying to find time to add Jason's section to the Core AAM, and Cynthia's text as well.
20:34:51 [joanie]: JS: I've asked Jason how he wants to proceed.
20:34:58 [joanie]: JS: But I've not yet heard back from him.
20:35:05 [joanie]: JS: So I may just proceed and then ask him.
20:35:09 [joanie]: CS: Sounds reasonable.
20:35:12 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:35:12 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps." taken up [from clown]
20:35:18 [joanie]: action-1593
20:35:18 [trackbot]: action-1593 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
20:35:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593
20:35:24 [joanie]: JS: That's the same one, really.
20:35:30 [joanie]: JS: Correction, it's not.
20:35:39 [joanie]: JS: This is something we opened a year ago.
20:35:45 [joanie]: CS: I pushed the date out again.
20:35:55 [joanie]: CS: I do intend to do it, but other things keep coming up.
20:35:59 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:35:59 [Zakim]: agendum 4 was just opened, joanie
20:36:06 [joanie]: Zakim, close this item
20:36:06 [Zakim]: agendum 4 closed
20:36:07 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:36:07 [Zakim]: 5. ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error". [from clown]
20:36:09 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:36:09 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and role="error"." taken up [from clown]
20:36:14 [joanie]: action-1691
20:36:14 [trackbot]: action-1691 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose UIA mapping for aria-errormessage. -- due 2015-12-31 -- CLOSED
20:36:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691
20:36:18 [joanie]: issue-1010
20:36:18 [trackbot]: issue-1010 -- Add an error role -- open
20:36:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1010
20:36:29 [clown]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691
20:36:37 [joanie]: JS: This is one I want to put past you quickly.
20:36:44 [joanie]: JS: I got your text, I made the changes.
20:36:46 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaErrorMessage
20:36:53 [joanie]: JS: They are at the above URL.
20:37:11 [joanie]: JS: I discovered when doing so that we didn't have a table yet for aria-errormessage.
20:37:21 [joanie]: JS: So I put in the UIA text and left the others TBD.
20:37:45 [joanie]: CS: (Reads the current proposed mapping and suggests "target")
20:38:22 [joanie]: CS: The other thing you could do instead of a long sentence is just say "ControllerFor".
20:38:37 [joanie]: JS: I thought about it, but I didn't know what it meant, so I looked around.
20:38:55 [joanie]: JS: The statement that is there is the same one elsed elsewhere.
20:39:03 [joanie]: JS: I've already closed the action (action-1691).
20:39:20 [joanie]: JS: I'll update the text as described.
20:39:23 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:39:23 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23" taken up [from clown]
20:39:44 [joanie]: action-1541
20:39:44 [trackbot]: action-1541 -- James Craig to Investigate and propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due 2015-08-18 -- OPEN
20:39:44 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541
20:39:51 [joanie]: JS: Is anything new?
20:40:02 [joanie]: JS: The last time I looked, there was a bug in WebKit's bugzilla.
20:40:19 [joanie]: JS: It's now resolved.
20:40:26 [joanie]: JS: As a duplicate.
20:40:37 [joanie]: JS: The duplicate is marked resolved FIXED.
20:41:13 [joanie]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138566
20:41:26 [joanie]: JS: I'll assign this action to myself and do the edits.
20:41:39 [joanie]: JS: I'll try to have it done in a week, which is February 9th.
20:42:19 [joanie]: action-1668
20:42:19 [trackbot]: action-1668 -- Alexander Surkov to Add a ia2_role_landmark to ia2. this will tell ats to look at the xml-roles value for landmarks -- due 2015-07-07 -- OPEN
20:42:19 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1668
20:42:44 [joanie]: JS: I have no notes on this.
20:42:54 [joanie]: JD: Rich recently did email Alex on some list.
20:42:58 [joanie]: action-1689
20:42:58 [trackbot]: Sorry, but action-1689 does not exist.
20:43:00 [joanie]: action-1681
20:43:00 [trackbot]: action-1681 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose new wording, as an editorial change only to clarify the inclusion rules in section 5.1.2 -- due 2015-09-15 -- OPEN
20:43:00 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1681
20:43:10 [joanie]: JS: This is mine.
20:43:23 [joanie]: JS: I thought it was ambiguous. Cynthia disagrees.
20:43:32 [joanie]: JS: My problem is with the first sentence.
20:43:44 [joanie]: JS: It implies if something has already been excluded, skip this section.
20:43:48 [joanie]: JS: That is not right.
20:43:53 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
20:44:02 [joanie]: CS: Your re-write sounds ok.
20:44:07 [joanie]: CS: (Reads it)
20:44:19 [joanie]: CS: The old text didn't bother me, but your text seems good too.
20:44:55 [joanie]: BG: I don't see anything wrong with it.
20:44:56 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
20:45:05 [clown]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/708
20:45:35 [joanie]: JS: My text is in the comments of this issue.
20:46:12 [joanie]: Suggested rewording:
20:46:12 [joanie]: "The following conditions override the rules above in Excluding Elements in the Accessibility Tree. Even if excluded by those rules, user agents MUST ...
20:49:59 [clown]: <span role="presentation" tabindex="0" onclick="clickHandle" aria-labelledby="foo">DingDong</span>
20:50:27 [joanie]: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/136
20:52:25 [joanie]: JD: Given the whole SVG golden hammer thread (see above URL), should we consider your proposed text in the context of this larger issue rather than just committing it because we here agree your text sounds good/right?
20:52:47 [joanie]: JS: Can you look at my example in this log.
20:53:13 [joanie]: JS: My reading of the Core AAM says that span is not included in the accessibility tree because role="presentation" knocks it out.
20:53:18 [joanie]: JS: Thoughts?
20:56:53 [joanie]: JD: (Quotes from GitHub issue 136)
20:57:11 [joanie]: JD: Conclusion: It would be included; not pruned, because of aria-labelledby="foo"
20:57:24 [joanie]: JD: Even though reaching that conclusion is really hard and messy.
20:58:44 [joanie]: JS: Then I would argue that the Core AAM is in conflict with the spec.
20:58:54 [joanie]: JS: I think that the text in the AAM is ambiguous.
20:59:06 [joanie]: JS: I think the text in the spec is not ambiguous.
21:03:52 [joanie]: (Group discusses variations of Joseph's original example and whether or not it would be included or excluded and what spec or specs apply)
21:05:38 [joanie]: JS: I won't put the text in for now.
21:05:52 [joanie]: CS: You could put the ARIA spec text in.
21:06:35 [joanie]: JS: I think that my text is better as it is not limited to global ARIA attributes.
21:06:53 [joanie]: CS: And I think your (Joseph's) text is better/less ambiguous.
21:08:04 [joanie]: JD: I withdraw my previous suggestion that you (Joseph) hold off on committing it to Core AAM.
21:08:20 [joanie]: JD: I continue to think, however, we need to deal with this in the ARIA spec, and other specs.
21:08:28 [joanie]: JS: Ok, I'll put it in the Core AAM.
21:10:34 [joanie]: RRSAgent, make log public
21:10:42 [joanie]: Zakim, part
21:10:42 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
21:10:42 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #aapi
21:10:54 [joanie]: scribeOptions: -final
21:11:01 [joanie]: RRSAgent, stop