17:54:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:54:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/01-aria-apg-irc
17:55:01 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
17:55:04 <jamesn> zakim, clear agenda
17:55:04 <Zakim> agenda cleared
17:55:25 <jamesn> Agenda+ Menubutton example (John) https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/menu-button/menu-button-1.html
17:55:25 <jamesn> Agenda+ combobox example (John) https://rawgit.com/jongund/oaa-examples/master/examples/combobox/combobox-1.html
17:55:25 <jamesn> Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
17:55:25 <jamesn> Agenda+ Continue review text of section "2.32 Tool Bar" in the keyboard interaction notes http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar
17:55:42 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA APG TF
17:59:07 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria-apg
18:00:32 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria-apg
18:00:45 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
18:01:49 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
18:02:31 <jemma> present+ jaeunjemmaku
18:02:56 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
18:03:03 <jamesn> present+ AnnAbbott
18:04:11 <JF> JF has joined #aria-apg
18:04:24 <jamesn> present+ MichielBijl
18:04:25 <JF> Present+ JF
18:04:32 <jamesn> present+ JohnFoliot
18:04:42 <jamesn> present+ MattKing
18:04:45 <jamesn> agenda?
18:04:55 <JF> zakim, who's here?
18:04:55 <Zakim> Present: JemmaKu, IanPouncey, Michiel_Bijl, LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JemmaJaEunKu, CharuPandhi, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, Bryan_Garaventa, MattKing, CPandhi, TeresaBoers,
18:04:59 <Zakim> ... JaEunJemmaku, MichielBijl, JohnFoliot
18:04:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, annabbott, LJWatson, jemma, RRSAgent, jamesn, IanPouncey, MichaelC, trackbot, MichielBijl, timeless, Zakim
18:05:06 <mck> mck has joined #aria-apg
18:05:36 <jamesn> present- CPandhi
18:05:36 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:05:46 <MichielBijl> present- IanPouncey
18:05:53 <MichielBijl> present- Michiel_Bijl
18:06:03 <IanPouncey> present+
18:06:08 <MichielBijl> present- Bryan_Garaventa
18:06:09 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:06:21 <MichielBijl> zakim, who's here?
18:06:21 <Zakim> Present: JemmaKu, LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JemmaJaEunKu, CharuPandhi, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, MattKing, TeresaBoers, JaEunJemmaku, MichielBijl, JohnFoliot, IanPouncey
18:06:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see jongund, mck, JF, annabbott, LJWatson, jemma, RRSAgent, jamesn, IanPouncey, MichaelC, trackbot, MichielBijl, timeless, Zakim
18:06:34 <MichielBijl> present- IanPouncey
18:06:41 <IanPouncey> present+
18:06:51 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria-apg
18:07:04 <jamesn> present- TeresaBoers
18:07:12 <jamesn> zakim, who is here?
18:07:12 <Zakim> Present: JemmaKu, LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JemmaJaEunKu, CharuPandhi, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, MattKing, JaEunJemmaku, MichielBijl, JohnFoliot, IanPouncey
18:07:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see Birkir, jongund, mck, JF, annabbott, LJWatson, jemma, RRSAgent, jamesn, IanPouncey, MichaelC, trackbot, MichielBijl, timeless, Zakim
18:07:26 <MichielBijl> present- JemmaJaEunKu
18:07:29 <jamesn> present- CharuPandhi
18:07:32 <jamesn> zakim, who is here?
18:07:32 <Zakim> Present: JemmaKu, LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, MattKing, JaEunJemmaku, MichielBijl, JohnFoliot, IanPouncey
18:07:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Birkir, jongund, mck, JF, annabbott, LJWatson, jemma, RRSAgent, jamesn, IanPouncey, MichaelC, trackbot, MichielBijl, timeless, Zakim
18:07:42 <MichielBijl> present- JohnFoliot
18:07:53 <MichielBijl> present- JemmaKu
18:07:53 <Birkir> present+ Birkir
18:08:05 <MichielBijl> zakim, who's here?
18:08:06 <Zakim> Present: LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, MattKing, JaEunJemmaku, MichielBijl, IanPouncey, Birkir
18:08:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see Birkir, jongund, mck, JF, annabbott, LJWatson, jemma, RRSAgent, jamesn, IanPouncey, MichaelC, trackbot, MichielBijl, timeless, Zakim
18:09:30 <Birkir> scribe: Birkir
18:09:41 <jamesn> agenda?
18:09:49 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:09:49 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Menubutton example (John) https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/menu-button/menu-button-1.html" taken up [from jamesn]
18:11:35 <jamesn> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0010.html
18:11:59 <Birkir> JN: link to Birkir's email added to the chat log.
18:12:36 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
18:13:43 <jamesn> Birkir: Point 1
18:13:47 <jamesn> 1. Missing matching ID attribute for the aria-labelledby on the menu role.
18:13:47 <jamesn> aria-labelledby="mb1"
18:13:47 <jamesn> Solution: Put id="mb1" on the button.
18:13:58 <jamesn> JG: think it is a problem with th code generator
18:14:13 <jamesn> JG: sorry about that
18:14:21 <jamesn> JG: the code is actually ok
18:14:37 <jamesn> 2. 2. aria-controls points to a non-existent id (menu1).
18:14:37 <jamesn> Solution: Put id="menu1" on ul with role="menu".
18:14:44 <MichielBijl> Related, toolbar menu that does essentially the same: http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/fHqsk
18:14:53 <jamesn> JG: same issue
18:15:51 <jamesn> JG: seems like the code generator needs to be looked at
18:16:07 <jamesn> Birkir: the biggest issue is that I couldn't use space bar or enter to do anything
18:16:21 <jamesn> tried in IE and FF and couldnt activate with keybaord
18:16:57 <jamesn> LW: cant get it to work at all at the moment
18:17:24 <jamesn> LW: if i pass the keys though it works. In virtual cursor it doesnt
18:17:32 <jamesn> Birkir: i had the opposite
18:18:33 <MichielBijl> q+
18:18:56 <jamesn> MK: maybe having the phrase "the font and the text are now...."
18:18:58 <jamesn> q+
18:19:29 <jamesn> MK: if the text that followed the button was something that described the example
18:19:41 <jamesn> IP: not keen on that for a few reasons
18:19:50 <jamesn> makes it very specific to this example
18:20:03 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg
18:20:08 <jamesn> doesn't solve the problem that the widget itself doesnt tell you the value
18:20:21 <jamesn> I actually dont like the premise of the example
18:20:23 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:20:30 <jamesn> they are not a great example
18:20:40 <MichielBijl> http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/fHqsk
18:20:42 <jamesn> MB: this is an example of a toolbar menu
18:21:39 <Birkir> WE could add a "don't implement this at home' disclaimer to the widget example. ;)
18:21:51 <jamesn> MK: if you think the button is misleading - the example is about menu buttons. If the button is promoting something we don't want to then this is maybe something we dont want to do
18:22:00 <jamesn> IP: maybe a language switcher
18:22:50 <MichielBijl> -q
18:22:53 <MichielBijl> q-
18:23:32 <jamesn> JN: why not something that isn't persistent
18:23:41 <jamesn> i.e. you can do it again
18:24:46 <jamesn> +1 to MB
18:25:08 <MichielBijl> why not something that doesn't have an active state
18:25:08 <jamesn> http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-menuButton-menuButtonComponent.html
18:25:12 <MichielBijl> like, I don't know, a cut/copy/paste menu
18:25:25 <jamesn> (here we have zoom in/zoom out, save and print)
18:26:01 <MichielBijl> +1 to that Oracle example
18:26:55 <jamesn> <discussion of JAWS issues>
18:29:07 <MichielBijl> AXPopUpButton in Safari/VO
18:29:44 <jamesn> AA: focus issue when you activate a menu button
18:30:04 <jamesn> need to move focus back
18:31:38 <jamesn> MB: proposal for cut/copy/paste and JN zoom in./out, save and print
18:31:47 <jamesn> http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-menuButton-menuButtonComponent.html
18:33:25 <jamesn> JG: just say activated menu item 1 , 2 and 3
18:33:48 <jamesn> JG: just to some generic text action 1, action 2 and action 3
18:34:16 <jamesn> JG: we were also going to make an example for bookmarks and selecting things takes it to the link
18:34:47 <jamesn> JG: right now just using UL elements. - now these would be anchors and the UL would be a list of links
18:35:11 <jamesn> MK: we talked about having an optimal example vs a remediation example\
18:35:27 <jamesn> MK: talked that it would be useful to have 2 kinds of example
18:38:53 <jamesn> JN: the only things which show states are menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio - and we are not using them
18:39:06 <jamesn> MK: this is not the design pattern for menu - but for menubutton
18:39:36 <jamesn> AA: have seen menubuttons with bullets in front
18:39:45 <jamesn> MK: the menu pattern includes thayt
18:40:06 <jamesn> MK: this example is tied to menubutton
18:41:19 <jamesn> JN: need to talk about persistant menu items when we talk about menus
18:41:29 <jamesn> MK: have a lot of feedback here
18:42:50 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:42:50 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jamesn
18:42:53 <jamesn> q-
18:42:55 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:42:55 <Zakim> agendum 2. "combobox example (John) https://rawgit.com/jongund/oaa-examples/master/examples/combobox/combobox-1.html" taken up [from jamesn]
18:43:15 <jamesn> scribe: Birkir
18:45:01 <Birkir> mk: First item in description indicates problem with the definition of autocompletes. Notion of combobox without autocomplete seems like a contradadiction.
18:45:47 <Birkir> aa: Defitinion of autocomplete none says input will not autocomplete.
18:46:59 <Birkir> MK: What is the function of a list associated with a text input, if the list never auto completes.
18:47:30 <Birkir> JN: User can type into input, or select from list, even if the list is not based on the user input.
18:48:58 <Birkir> BG: We ahve many types of suggestions on websites, autocomplete, keywords etc. Not necessarily always related to what user is requesting.
18:56:32 <Birkir> MK: Wondring if there is a value in specifying the different autocomplete attribute values. It is difficult to define waht they actually mean for the real-world developer.
19:00:04 <Birkir> AA: Focus location matters, if you e.g. type "t" for a state dropdown you end up on Tn. If you type "t" again you end up on Texas. If autocomplete was off, technically you would be searching for "tt" Texas should not show up.
19:03:18 <Birkir> IP: The closest native OS equivalent to what we are trying to emulate are called datalists. . Can't find any examples on the web thought.
19:04:05 <jemma> like this one, https://jqueryui.com/autocomplete/?
19:06:20 <Birkir> MK: If you are in a list and type "t" you should go to the first item in the list starting with t. Typing "t" again will get you to the next item that starts with t. If you are in an input field with an assocated list, typing "tt" should result in an empty list of suggestions (no options start with tt).
19:08:42 <Birkir> MK: Definition of autocomplete="none" seems to mean that there may be a static list of choices, but it is not visible and does not adjust to the value in the input. It can be opened by user but does not care what, if anything, the user has typed.
19:12:37 <Birkir> IP/MK: Looking through the autocomplete definitions, discuss rewriting the text for these in the spec.
19:13:10 <jamesn> Q+
19:15:49 <Birkir> JN: Can anybody think of a good use case for aria-complete="none" on a combobox, if we can't, we shouldn't have an example for it.
19:15:50 <jamesn> q-
19:18:26 <Birkir> MK: Proposes to send an email to the list where we propose aligning aria-autocomplete with the HTML5 autocomplete attribute. Could be addressed this coming Thursday.
19:20:42 <Birkir> MK: Use aria-expanded to indicate whether list of matches is visible. Agrees with BG that using a live region to notify screen reader users that results are available should be included in the APG spec itself, not editable at the moment.
19:21:15 <Birkir> JG: What does this mean for the examples?
19:23:55 <Birkir> MK: ARIA does not offer a way to tell users if typing into the list filters the list.
19:25:45 <Birkir> JG: What is the action item, should the title of current example be changed to "combobox example"?
19:27:50 <Birkir> MK: If you type a letter into the combobox and a suggested completion for the word appears in grey letters in the combobox, that would be aria-autocomplete="true"
19:29:55 <Birkir> JG: If you type A in box the letters "labama" show up. If you type m then "erican Samoa" shows up in the box. If you type "x" the box would be cleared of suggestions and an error message should appear.
19:31:13 <Birkir> MK: Proposes to add an example where a list appears but user has to initiate the list navigation by pressing arrow down.
19:33:57 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/01-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:35:12 <Birkir> JN: Warns against using HTML5 autocomplete, it causes browser behavior to happen.
19:36:25 <jemma> can anyone explain what is the biggest difference between html autocomplete and aria autocomplete? sorry for this basic question
19:38:25 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
19:38:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/01-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
19:38:37 <MichielBijl> @IanPouncey
19:38:45 <mck> rrsagent, make log public
19:38:51 <MichielBijl> @IanPouncey are you still here?
19:39:02 <IanPouncey> Hi Michiel
19:39:07 <mck> zakim, bye
19:39:07 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been JemmaKu, IanPouncey, Michiel_Bijl, LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JemmaJaEunKu, CharuPandhi, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, Bryan_Garaventa,
19:39:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:39:10 <Zakim> ... MattKing, CPandhi, TeresaBoers, JaEunJemmaku, MichielBijl, JohnFoliot, Birkir
19:39:20 <MichielBijl> There is an outstanding issue on the tracker: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1228
19:39:40 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
19:39:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/01-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
19:39:44 <MichielBijl> And I wanted to close that, but the current example that is linked to is the older one (minimal example: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/ARIA/slider/)
19:39:59 <MichielBijl> Do you think we should just go ahead and replace that with: http://files.paciellogroup.com/blogmisc/samples/aria/slider/
19:40:04 <MichielBijl> Which is the newer one by Hans.
19:40:26 <IanPouncey> Yes, that makes sense
19:41:22 <IanPouncey> The 'new' one is still quite old of course, but it's the better one to link to.
19:41:36 <MichielBijl> Yeah that is what I figured.
19:41:42 <IanPouncey> Especially with the associated blog post
19:41:51 <MichielBijl> If there isn't a newer one by TPG, I'll go ahead and make those changes.
19:42:05 <MichielBijl> Yeah, makes sense.
19:42:11 <mck> mb, we are going to eliminate all links to external examples
19:43:01 <mck> so, you could just remove the link instead of changing the target
19:43:25 <MichielBijl> mck: well, until then :)
19:43:39 <MichielBijl> I take it we want to have all internal examples ready before that?
19:45:25 <mck> I am OK with either way ... if we do not have any examples for a particular pattern in an editor's draft, that is fine ... removing the link is just a forward looking way to close the action.
19:46:49 <MichielBijl> Agreed. We can just remove them all in one go when we have the examples.
21:41:41 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
21:42:02 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria-apg
21:42:25 <jongund_> https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/semantics.html#the-header-element