16:56:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
16:56:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-audio-irc
16:56:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:56:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #audio
16:57:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 28346
16:57:00 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:57:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
16:57:01 <trackbot> Date: 28 January 2016
16:57:32 <mdjp> Agenda+ Discuss PR 677
16:57:42 <mdjp> Agenda+ Review of new issues
16:57:50 <mdjp> Agenda+ Update on Houdini worklet timelines and impact on Audio Worker.
16:57:53 <joe> Is anyone on the WebEx? I cannot join
16:57:58 <mdjp> Agenda+ Next F2F
16:58:03 <joe> I have asked Bill if he can help
16:58:07 <mdjp> Agenda+ Date of next meeting
16:58:11 <mdjp> joe - trying now
16:58:14 <padenot> ahhhh
16:58:52 <mdjp> joe - I get a page telling me the meeting is cancelled or ended
16:58:54 <joe> Bill is out of the country and I got an autoanswer
16:59:00 <joe> This is crazy.
16:59:23 <mdjp> What url are you using Joe?
16:59:41 <joe> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mdd4a87761b7e4da123d9213197cad084
17:01:06 <joe> If anyone has access to a telcon number we can use, that would help tremendously
17:01:13 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann has joined #audio
17:01:20 <BillHofmann> present+ BillHofmann
17:01:28 <padenot> hrm still not fixed
17:01:29 <hongchan> hongchan has joined #audio
17:01:32 <joe> Bill, can we use the telcon solution you gave us last week/
17:01:32 <mdjp> present+ mdjp
17:01:33 <rtoyg_m> rtoyg_m has joined #audio
17:01:36 <BillHofmann> does the webex client work?
17:01:37 <joe> present+ joe
17:01:39 <joe> no
17:01:41 <BillHofmann> oh.
17:01:51 <rtoyg_m> present+ rtoyg_m
17:02:00 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #audio
17:02:04 <BillHofmann> ummm.  Yes, you can.  Please don't email to the public list this time, though....  Jas...
17:02:10 <hongchan> present+ hongchan
17:02:16 <joe> I will not -- I am sorry about that
17:02:20 <BillHofmann> np
17:03:00 <joe> ChrisL, let's follow up next week to figure out how we can get WebEx back up, it died the previous meeting also
17:03:27 <ChrisL> oh
17:03:42 <BillHofmann> ummm.  lets see.
17:03:44 <BillHofmann> Please join my meeting by computer or smartphone: https://my.webjoin.com/dolby/?passcode=70339799  If this is your first time joining, you may be prompted to download the BT MeetMe with Dolby Voice plugin. Use your stereo headset for the best sound quality. Or join by phone with these dial-in numbers and passcode Participant passcode: 70339799 then #     International direct: +1 857 350.1927      US Toll free: 1 866 777.5715  More dial-in numbers f[CUT]
17:03:53 <joe> OK hope we can excise this from the minutes
17:03:53 <ChrisL> died at the start of the meeting or part way through?
17:04:03 <BillHofmann> web client is plugin based.  ah yes. :)
17:04:13 <joe> Thank you Bill
17:04:20 <BillHofmann> s/70339799//
17:05:40 <hongchan> music!
17:05:44 <rtoyg_m> Hurry up chariperson!
17:05:50 <rtoyg_m> chairperson
17:05:58 <padenot> so catchy
17:06:00 <joe> We are waiting for a chairperson to join the call I guess
17:06:05 <joe> Although I didn't break WebEx I failed to follow up after the last breakage -- my apologies to everyone.
17:08:12 <mdjp> agenda?
17:09:03 <cwilso> present +cwilso
17:09:06 <padenot> present+ padenot
17:09:24 <joe> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/pull/677
17:09:25 <jdsmith> jdsmith has joined #audio
17:09:27 <mdjp> zakim, take up agendum 1
17:09:27 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Discuss PR 677" taken up [from mdjp]
17:10:23 <BillHofmann> scribenick: BillHofmann
17:10:32 <joe> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/12
17:10:39 <BillHofmann> joe: issue about describing performance time and latency
17:11:09 <BillHofmann> joe: when will a signal be heard, but a new use case has popped up - when will will the next render occur?
17:12:10 <BillHofmann> joe: this is an issue of "scope creep".  Issue 12 adds a new attribute "outputPerformanceTime", time the next scheduled block of audio would be heard
17:13:03 <hongchan> *just muted our mic - does it help?*
17:13:05 <BillHofmann> joe: PR adds two attributes: currentPerformanceTime and latency - how long after render to reach the useragent output
17:13:14 <ChrisL> yes, thanks!
17:13:20 <BillHofmann> yes, sounds less like someone being hit with a bat :)
17:14:04 <cwilso> q+
17:14:19 <BillHofmann> joe: since blocks aren't necessarily rendered continuously and evenly, one or two of these is insufficient.  probably need all 3
17:14:56 <mdjp> ack cwilso
17:15:52 <BillHofmann> cwilso: you're right - the currentTime is non-uniform, for a bunch of purposes (most interactive ones), you need to know real *now*
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17:16:07 <BillHofmann> cwilso: you don't really have latency, you have average latency
17:16:46 <BillHofmann> cwilso: need "what is really now" in AudioContext time, can calculate latency if you need to
17:16:57 <BillHofmann> joe: nice to have
17:17:27 <BillHofmann> cwilso: somewhere, we need to know what time it is now in AudioContext time and in performance time.
17:17:54 <BillHofmann> cwilso: latency is helpful on destination node, but not really useful for calculations
17:18:10 <BillHofmann> joe: basically for user experience time (aka Noteflight)
17:18:21 <BillHofmann> s/aka/e.g./
17:20:52 <BillHofmann> cwilso: what we have as currentTime is the least useful thing we could have.  The current PR adds a timestamp on currentTime, adds latency.
17:21:26 <hongchan> hongchan has joined #audio
17:21:26 <BillHofmann> cwilso: seems like it'd be better to add the currentTime in AudioContext time that proceeds monotonically
17:21:32 <BillHofmann> joe: like "outputTime"
17:23:14 <BillHofmann> mdjp: would be good to clearly explain these time values, regardless with what we end up with
17:23:31 <BillHofmann> all: yes.  agree - we haven't expressed this really clearly.
17:23:36 <ChrisL> +1 to clear explanation with several good examples
17:24:24 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: do we have a sense of what the right answer is
17:24:38 <hongchan> "currentTime in AudioContext time that proceeds monotonically" - I agree with what Chris said.
17:24:53 <hongchan> I think this should be 'currentPeroformanceTime'.
17:24:54 <BillHofmann> joe: we know we need more things, but unclear which exactly we *need*.  outputTime is clearly needed, what is unclear is whether we need currentPerformanceTime, etc.
17:25:49 <BillHofmann> mdjp: since no-one has come forward with a currentPerformanceTime, should we split into v1 and v2 features?
17:26:12 <BillHofmann> joe: will try to capture a clear proposal in Issue 12, conversation keeps drifting...
17:26:31 <rtoyg_m_> rtoyg_m_ has joined #audio
17:27:02 <BillHofmann> hongchan: currently, currentTime proceeds in "batches", there should be a way to have a property that updates monotonically (evenly)
17:27:20 <BillHofmann> cwilso: to be clear, this isn't an attribute, it's a method call
17:27:36 <BillHofmann> cwilso: you don't want to be updating the attr constantly if not needed
17:27:45 <BillHofmann> joe: how is this different from outputTime
17:28:28 <BillHofmann> joe: if you schedule something to be played at time T, outputTime when you hear that, it'll be at time T
17:28:55 <ChrisL> when the sound *leaves* the speakers, presumably
17:29:11 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: when it leaves the computer...
17:30:10 <ChrisL> (we all agree bluetooth sucks)
17:30:13 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: Bluetooth, for instance, has high latency
17:30:29 <ChrisL> high and variable
17:30:39 <BillHofmann> joe: in some cases, you know for sure that the system has a nominally fixed (near constant) latency
17:31:00 <padenot> you can know the output latency on all platforms
17:31:09 <BillHofmann> joe: perhaps it's when the UA calls "play" to the audio subsystem
17:31:47 <BillHofmann> cwilso: there's no way today to carefully sync audio, midi, and the screen - particularly, audio
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17:32:59 <BillHofmann> padenot: we know the time it hits the speakers, it works just fine, even with BT
17:33:39 <BillHofmann> joe: will attempt to write this issue up and add to Issue 12
17:34:10 <BillHofmann> joe: is the PR author affiliated with a WG member?
17:34:39 <BillHofmann> cwilso: he doesn't work for google, but could be a chromium contributor.
17:34:57 <BillHofmann> joe: will write up the issue, won't try to solve who does the PR.
17:34:58 <ChrisL> "I think it is better to split this issue to three seperated issues:
17:34:59 <ChrisL> 1) latency issue
17:34:59 <ChrisL> 2) time drift issue (currentTime and currentSystemTime)
17:34:59 <ChrisL> 3) granularity issue. "
17:35:14 <ChrisL> Olivier Thereaux,, 11 Sep 2013
17:36:18 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: should we have a graph/explain each of these?
17:36:22 <rtoyg_m> rtoyg_m has joined #audio
17:36:29 <mdjp> zakim, take up agendum 2
17:36:31 <BillHofmann> joe: yes.  The IRCAM commenter has been doing that, it's helpful.
17:36:32 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review of new issues" taken up [from mdjp]
17:36:48 <mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+no%3Amilestone
17:37:16 <mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/708
17:37:48 <BillHofmann> hongchan: already specified, not sure what else can be done here...
17:39:24 <BillHofmann> mdjp: does anyone agree this is a valid issue?
17:39:38 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: agree with Hongchan
17:39:57 <mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/707
17:40:10 <BillHofmann> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/707
17:40:40 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: elaborates thinking on issue...
17:41:11 <BillHofmann> mdjp: move to "ready for editing" for v1
17:41:39 <mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/705
17:42:11 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: this has come up just this week - we've never discussed...
17:42:42 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: see the value, but is this a "must have" or "handy"
17:43:14 <BillHofmann> ChrisL: lots of people are doing this by hand, we think, probably useful
17:43:26 <BillHofmann> joe: this is a job for "Super Audio Worker"
17:43:59 <BillHofmann> all: discussion on what the criteria should be for new "everyone uses them" nodes
17:44:51 <BillHofmann> mdjp: could go either way on this
17:45:41 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: raises issue on lots of different variants being discussed
17:46:09 <BillHofmann> joe: people aren't beating us up on noise nodes, they're beating us up on AudioWorker
17:46:43 <BillHofmann> mdjp: anyone object to v.next?
17:47:24 <mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/703
17:47:45 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: these all follow on from joe's constructor PR
17:48:22 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: all of these related issues are adding the parameters to the constructors
17:48:34 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: do they line up to the factory method arguments?
17:49:07 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: pretty much. most are pretty obvious, ones called out here are not so obvious.
17:49:53 <BillHofmann> billhofmann: so these are "best practice" questions?
17:50:12 <BillHofmann> billhofmann: and who can share a best practices position?
17:50:46 <BillHofmann> mdjp: shall we set a task for the next call on commenting on them to propose solution?
17:51:13 <mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/695
17:51:17 <BillHofmann> mdjp: assume these are v1, we'll comment over the next 2 weeks
17:53:13 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: notes that default == 360, which if we do modulo, forces no output, should remove that and let >360 angles produce result as documented
17:53:56 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: should be 0 <= angle <= 360, outside values are undefined
17:55:48 <BillHofmann> mdjp: happy with that proposal.
17:56:23 <BillHofmann> mdjp: any other pressing issues?
17:56:39 <BillHofmann> rtoy_g: can we get reviewers on the open PRs?
17:56:48 <BillHofmann> padenot: will look at them
17:56:59 <mdjp> zakim, take up agendum 3
17:56:59 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Update on Houdini worklet timelines and impact on Audio Worker." taken up [from mdjp]
17:57:05 <BillHofmann> mdjp: homework: review PRs and Roy's issues
17:57:24 <rtoyg_m> Ray, not Roy.
17:57:36 <BillHofmann> s/Roy/Ray/
17:57:43 <BillHofmann> (sorry)
17:58:00 <rtoyg_m> People make that mistake all the time. I have no idea why. :-)
17:58:03 <BillHofmann> mdjp: any update on the issue?
17:58:18 <BillHofmann> padenot: yes, some action having sent the email
17:58:30 <BillHofmann> joe: he was inviting us to submit PRs
17:58:42 <BillHofmann> padenot: yes, I will review the text and note what we should address
17:59:03 <mdjp> zakim, take up agendum 4
17:59:03 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Next F2F" taken up [from mdjp]
17:59:36 <BillHofmann> mdjp: question is whether we should do a plenary session at WAC#2
18:00:02 <mdjp> zakim, take up agendum 5
18:00:02 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Date of next meeting" taken up [from mdjp]
18:00:06 <BillHofmann> mdjp: sent out google poll for F2F, really only date was the Thurs/Fri before; will send out email confirming
18:00:16 <BillHofmann> mdjp: next meeting 2 weeks.
18:00:42 <BillHofmann> rrsagent, make logs public
18:00:54 <BillHofmann> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:00:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-audio-minutes.html BillHofmann
18:00:59 <BillHofmann> zakim, bye
18:00:59 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been BillHofmann, mdjp, joe, rtoyg_m, hongchan, padenot
18:00:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #audio
18:01:09 <BillHofmann> rrsagent, bye
18:01:09 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
21:02:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
21:02:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/28-audio-irc
21:04:32 <BillHofmann> rrsagent, find smartphone
21:04:32 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'smartphone'
21:04:50 <BillHofmann> rrsagent, smartphone?
21:04:50 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'smartphone'