IRC log of aria-apg on 2016-01-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:06:24 [RRSAgent]
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18:06:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/25-aria-apg-irc
18:06:33 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
18:06:34 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl has joined #aria-apg
18:07:40 [jamesn]
regrets+ Jemma Michiel Bryan
18:07:55 [IanPouncey]
present+ IanPouncey
18:08:03 [jongund]
present+ jongund
18:08:15 [jamesn]
present+ JamesNurthen
18:08:24 [jamesn]
present+ MattKing
18:08:31 [jamesn]
present+ AnnAbbott
18:08:55 [jamesn]
present+ CPandhi
18:09:09 [jamesn]
scribe: jamesn
18:09:21 [jamesn]
Meeting: ARIA APG TF
18:09:29 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:09:37 [jamesn]
zakim, next item
18:09:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Update on draft of landmark design pattern (John/Ann) https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#aria_landmark" taken up [from jamesn]
18:09:38 [annabbott]
present+ TeresaBoers
18:09:51 [jamesn]
MK: what state is this in - you sent an email
18:09:58 [jamesn]
AA: not done yet but can take a look
18:10:10 [jamesn]
JG: think it is greatly simplified
18:10:17 [jamesn]
JG: added 2.1 and 2.2 sections
18:11:01 [jamesn]
Sections 2.1 and 2.2 are "done" 2.3 is not
18:11:12 [jamesn]
MK: perhaps folks should read it offline
18:11:14 [jamesn]
https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#aria_landmark"
18:11:17 [jamesn]
https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#aria_landmark
18:11:38 [jamesn]
MK: one of things we talked about was rolling the content into example pages which demo the use of landmarks
18:11:47 [jamesn]
AA: haven't started that yet
18:12:00 [jamesn]
JG: interested in working on but nothing to show at this point
18:12:24 [jamesn]
MK: since it is a WIP reviewing during the call may not be the most frutiful thing
18:12:45 [jamesn]
JG: one question. The forms landmark. Put into APG that this is not a commonly used Landmark
18:13:11 [jamesn]
JG: we were afraid that people might put a form landmark in
18:13:35 [jamesn]
MK: I have never understood why we have it. Kind of like a cousin to application
18:13:49 [jamesn]
AA: think it goes back to b4 ATs made big progress
18:13:53 [jamesn]
q?
18:13:56 [jamesn]
q+
18:14:22 [jamesn]
MK: HPR revelaed form elements as they thought it was useful to the reader but no one does that any more
18:15:32 [jamesn]
JN: potentially see the use in SVG or something
18:17:21 [mck]
scribe: matt_king
18:17:36 [mck]
IP: not sure we should discourage or promote use of form
18:17:43 [mck]
aa: have to define it
18:18:09 [boerst]
need to drop, due to conflict
18:18:13 [mck]
jg: people see them; see form landmark, so use it because I have a form
18:18:23 [mck]
iP: that's why we need to explain when to use it
18:18:41 [mck]
jg: for search, we want people to use search landmark
18:18:53 [mck]
jg: we need to show cases where it is useful
18:19:58 [jamesn]
IP: same situation as navigation role. there are definate use cases where might want to naviagte
18:20:02 [mck]
ip: I think it is similar to navigation; don't put on all linkks, but do so when it is significant
18:20:36 [mck]
aa: consider login
18:21:02 [mck]
jn: maybe a portal page where there is a small bit of the page for login, may be useful there
18:21:09 [jamesn]
JN: some places forms may be ok.
18:21:17 [jamesn]
Charu: are there any advantages?
18:21:22 [mck]
cp: is there advantage of using it? we could list that?
18:22:05 [mck]
aa: maybe the login example
18:22:18 [mck]
jn: no disadvantage, we shouldn't steer people away
18:22:26 [mck]
aa: concern people may use it for every form
18:22:40 [jamesn]
scribe: jamesn
18:23:01 [jamesn]
MK: if the purpose of the form role was to have a mapping for the form element
18:23:20 [jamesn]
MK: then I think we should make it a structure rather than a role
18:23:31 [jamesn]
MK: dont think it is mapped by any browser
18:23:58 [jamesn]
MK: another possibility to avoid that is that only forms with labels are mapped - like regions
18:24:34 [jamesn]
MK: could use region from an AT perspective
18:24:46 [jamesn]
JN: that goes for all landmarks really
18:25:15 [jamesn]
JN: i disagree that form is less important
18:25:27 [jamesn]
IP: making decisions about UI - i agree
18:25:47 [jamesn]
MK: rare that there is a part of a web page which is not part of main which has a form
18:26:26 [jamesn]
MK: even if it was a common practice the benefit is low. get the real info from the label not the type
18:26:34 [jamesn]
MK: others get info with type
18:26:48 [jamesn]
IP: can put form inside navigation
18:26:56 [jamesn]
IP: no point in making structural
18:27:04 [jamesn]
q+
18:27:36 [jamesn]
IP: dont make it structural
18:27:44 [jamesn]
q-
18:29:44 [jamesn]
JN: is there any evidence this is a problem
18:29:58 [jamesn]
JN: aria in HTML says <form> maps to role=form
18:30:16 [jamesn]
JG: sometimes have empty forms in pages
18:30:22 [jamesn]
so i think that is a bug
18:31:32 [jamesn]
MK: any time there is an implicit role it puts it in the tree. If has role form will be regarded as a landmark
18:31:36 [jongund]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/semantics.html#the-form-element
18:31:44 [jamesn]
MK: exposing it is a decision of the screen reader.
18:32:40 [jamesn]
JN: search is now allowed on form elements
18:34:20 [jamesn]
MK: form is a landmark. unless we make a spec change need authoring guidance
18:34:51 [jamesn]
JG: would a login form be an appropriate use of form
18:35:28 [jamesn]
CP: looking at html spec. the form element had default saemantic as role=form. search and presentation are allowed
18:35:55 [jongund]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/semantics.html#the-form-element
18:36:49 [cpandhi]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/#index-aria-search
18:37:43 [jamesn]
q+
18:37:52 [cpandhi]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/#docconformance
18:38:11 [jamesn]
JG: primary content of authentication page is username and password
18:40:19 [jamesn]
ARIA in HTML is a [HTML51] specification module. Any HTML features, conformance requirements, or terms that this specification module makes reference to, but does not explicitly define, are defined in the [HTML51] specification.
18:40:56 [jamesn]
JN: is a rec track document
18:41:53 [jamesn]
JN: very confusing documents
18:42:07 [jemma]
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18:42:13 [jamesn]
MK: wish we could fold "using aria in HTML" into the APG
18:42:46 [jemma]
present+ JaEunJemmaku
18:44:08 [jamesn]
MK: we should request a change.
18:44:17 [jamesn]
JG: seemed to agree that was a good idea at the time
18:45:07 [jamesn]
MK: from a perspective of minimizing role bloat - don't see a lot of value in the form role. Less to write abotu etc.
18:45:23 [jamesn]
MK: wondering if should propose deprecating it in aria 1.1
18:45:56 [jamesn]
JN: epub wants to get more specific on things
18:46:09 [jamesn]
IP: for screen readers has no value unless used for navigation
18:46:21 [jamesn]
IP: however, there could be future cases where it is useful
18:46:52 [jamesn]
JN: what harm does it do if someone puts it in?
18:47:08 [jamesn]
JG: perhaps describe as a specifialized region
18:47:27 [jamesn]
JG: agree that the label on the form is more important than that there is a form there
18:47:34 [jamesn]
MK: harm is overuse
18:47:56 [jamesn]
MK: if used judiciously then it is not worth having region and form in my mind
18:48:18 [jamesn]
MK: for 1 thing - in addition to dont use role form where there is an html form
18:48:49 [jamesn]
MK: if a child of another region and the majority of the region is the form then don't use it
18:49:05 [jamesn]
q+
18:50:08 [jamesn]
JN: should state that form elements do NOT have to be children of form role
18:50:09 [jamesn]
q-
18:51:56 [jamesn]
JN: good uses bank sites have login regions etc.
18:52:25 [jamesn]
example here - https://www.bankofamerica.com/
18:52:53 [jamesn]
ARIA in HTML - https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/
18:52:55 [mck]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/#docconformance
18:53:24 [jamesn]
zakim, next item
18:53:24 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status" taken up [from jamesn]
18:53:57 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 2
18:53:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Discuss example development work in progress" taken up [from jamesn]
18:54:36 [jamesn]
JG: will have menu bar update next week
18:55:38 [jemma]
https://rawgit.com/jongund/oaa-examples/master/examples/menu-button/menu-button-1.html
18:56:15 [jamesn]
JG: Is a menu button that links to other pages ok?
18:56:54 [jamesn]
JN: a favourites menu would navigate to them
18:57:17 [jamesn]
MK: if the links are persistant on the page - would not turn them into menu items.
18:57:44 [jamesn]
MK: no one would be aware that could do other stuff. lose all the other semantics if you put it in a menu
18:57:58 [jamesn]
just a set of links - dont put them in a menu bar
18:58:14 [jamesn]
rather see them just in a navigation structure
19:00:24 [jamesn]
JG: grid - was that for mega menus
19:00:43 [jamesn]
MK: the element which opens the mega menu would move focus within it'
19:01:15 [jamesn]
JG: would you constarin within megamenu until you close it
19:01:26 [jamesn]
MK; yes or select something
19:02:40 [jamesn]
JK: it opens the menu
19:02:52 [jamesn]
JN: but focus doesnt move to the menu items
19:03:25 [jamesn]
JN: you mean focus should move to the first item
19:03:30 [jamesn]
JN: yes
19:04:05 [jamesn]
MK: if tab to it and force jaws into forms mode then will track it - but if just press enter then it is as if the button did nothing as the focus didnt move
19:04:15 [jamesn]
MK: good use of menu button Jon
19:04:31 [jamesn]
JG: when you open a menu button focus should move to the 1st menu item?
19:04:33 [jamesn]
MK: yes
19:04:51 [jamesn]
AA: and esc should close
19:04:54 [jamesn]
JK: it does
19:05:17 [jamesn]
JG: should break the keyboard stuff up - for the menu and for the button
19:05:27 [jamesn]
JG: also have someone working on combo box
19:05:35 [jamesn]
JG: was close last week
19:05:47 [jamesn]
MK: can add both to next weeks agenda
19:05:58 [jamesn]
MK: probably a few more weeks on landmarks?
19:06:00 [jamesn]
AA: probably
19:08:34 [jamesn]
MK: combobox is 1 of the roles i'm working on for the spec
19:09:15 [jamesn]
MK: there may be some things that dont quite work well yet. not going to disallow aria-owns. going to recommend aria-controls instead of owns.
19:10:47 [jamesn]
zakim, next item
19:10:47 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status" taken up [from jamesn]
19:10:54 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 4
19:10:54 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review text of section 2.32 Tool Bar http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar" taken up [from jamesn]
19:11:01 [jamesn]
zakim, close item 3
19:11:01 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status, closed
19:11:03 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:11:03 [Zakim]
4. Review text of section 2.32 Tool Bar http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar [from jamesn]
19:11:12 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 4
19:11:12 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review text of section 2.32 Tool Bar http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar" taken up [from jamesn]
19:12:29 [jamesn]
http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#toolbar
19:12:56 [jamesn]
MK: in 1st para makes assumptions that there is a menu bar and it is a subset
19:13:04 [jamesn]
MK: not sure that is true any more
19:14:12 [jamesn]
MK: the assumption it manages focus is more of a practice
19:14:47 [jamesn]
MK: not consistent
19:15:11 [jamesn]
VO collapses toolbars and have to interact with them
19:16:01 [jamesn]
Spec: "Authors may manage focus of descendants for all instances of this role, as described in Managing Focus."
19:16:52 [jamesn]
"A collection of commonly used function buttons or controls represented in compact visual form."
19:19:58 [jamesn]
Apple Definition (from OSX) - A toolbar (which is often combined with a title bar) gives users convenient access to the most frequently used commands and features in an app.
19:20:45 [jamesn]
Oracle (ADF rich client) - Toolbars group iconic and textual commands which act on objects on a page or within a component (Tables, TreeTables and Trees). Toolbars contain at least one button along with optional separators, standard web widgets and overflow lists.
19:25:23 [jamesn]
like here http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-toolbar-toolbarPattern.html
19:25:48 [jamesn]
JK: what is the distinction between menu button and toolbar?
19:25:57 [jamesn]
JN: can have a menu button in a toolbar
19:26:13 [jamesn]
MK: will reduce description to 2 sentences from 3 paragraphs :)
19:27:23 [jamesn]
MK: group info seems useless
19:27:33 [jamesn]
JN: would agree with removing that
19:30:38 [jamesn]
MK: RTL stuff? do we remove?
19:30:57 [jamesn]
JN: I think we should have something general abotu all patterns which include left and right arrows
19:31:02 [jamesn]
THE HOUR
19:31:11 [jamesn]
OR 90 MINS
19:35:29 [jamesn]
will pick up with the toolbars
19:35:46 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:35:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/25-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:37:15 [mck]
29391 – Pattern-toolbar
19:37:16 [mck]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29391
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23:19:43 [MichielBijl]
I have added EditorConfig support to the Guide