IRC log of tt on 2016-01-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-tt-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim, this will be TTML

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I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

14:59:29 [trackbot]

Date: 21 January 2016

15:00:21 [nigel]

Present: andreas, glenn, nigel

15:00:24 [nigel]

chair: nigel

15:00:27 [nigel]

scribe: nigel

15:00:36 [nigel]

Regrets: frans, pierre

15:03:20 [nigel]

Topic: This meeting

15:04:24 [nigel]

nigel: Runs through agenda. Anything specific to discuss including AOB?

15:04:48 [nigel]

atai: I'd like to raise the use of VTTCue in relation to HTMLCue.

15:05:17 [nigel]

nigel: We may be somewhat light today but will make progress where we can.

15:05:25 [nigel]

Topic: Action Items

15:05:42 [nigel]

action-453?

15:05:42 [trackbot]

action-453 -- Thierry Michel to Schedule between tmichel and philippe the transition to cr3 with any director call as needed. -- due 2016-01-21 -- OPEN

15:05:42 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/453

15:05:59 [nigel]

nigel: As far as I'm aware there's been no progress here - we're waiting on plh and tmichel.

15:06:17 [nigel]

action-383?

15:06:17 [trackbot]

action-383 -- Glenn Adams to Missing XML declaration -- due 2015-04-30 -- OPEN

15:06:17 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/383

15:06:45 [nigel]

glenn: I've done this. I'll add a note re the resolution.

15:09:00 [nigel]

nigel: I see it's for TTML 1.0.

15:09:13 [nigel]

glenn: I've fixed for TTML2, and will fix for TTML 1 and move to pending review later.

15:09:43 [nigel]

... It was hard to work out what was going on. It turns out there was a Byte Order Mark before the XML declaration.

15:09:54 [nigel]

... I've got that fixed. None of the other files have that in. I don't know how it appeared.

15:10:29 [nigel]

action-441?

15:10:29 [trackbot]

action-441 -- Andreas Tai to Kick off the analysis work on the vttcue carrying html idea. -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN

15:10:29 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/441

15:11:00 [nigel]

atai: Last week we mentioned HTMLCue again and some members said they were interested in pushing this forward.

15:11:23 [nigel]

... Action-441 is just to proceed with evaluating the use of VTTCue as an alternative existing mechanism. However

15:11:36 [nigel]

... nigel and glenn mentioned that they would like a dedicated HTMLCue proposal. I think we said that we could

15:12:01 [nigel]

... do that in parallel. When we started the HTMLCue activity it was difficult to get anyone to take the lead, so we

15:12:22 [nigel]

... ended up having a short proposal to test the water. If now we have more people interested maybe we could

15:12:27 [plh]

plh has joined #tt

15:12:31 [nigel]

... create another action for it to make parallel progress.

15:12:50 [nigel]

glenn: I guess we need a document proposal. There are a couple of documents that I created a while back that

15:13:07 [plh]

present+ plh

15:13:17 [glenn]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml1-api/Overview.html

15:13:28 [nigel]

... have never been published. They were as above.

15:13:31 [glenn]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml2-api/Overview.html

15:14:09 [nigel]

glenn: Those links were to two documents that I threw together in 2013 for a TTMLCue interface level 1 and 2.

15:14:48 [nigel]

... I could leverage those documents or use them as a template for a draft HTMLCue.

15:15:40 [nigel]

group: [discussion of who might be able to take this work forward]

15:18:40 [nigel]

... [concludes that nigel should reach out to david from netflix]

15:18:47 [nigel]

nigel: Okay I'll do that outside the meeting.

15:20:39 [nigel]

Topic: IMSC

15:20:55 [nigel]

nigel: plh, please could update on publication of CR3?

15:21:21 [nigel]

plh: I've been swamped. I understand the status is that the objection is gone, so you guys are waiting on

15:21:30 [nigel]

... a Director's decision to update the CR?

15:21:32 [nigel]

nigel: Correct.

15:22:02 [nigel]

plh: I will attempt to get that decision today. I'll let tmichel know by email.

15:22:42 [nigel]

nigel: We have approval to publish and no objections.

15:23:51 [nigel]

plh: I need an update on the changes that were done for the new CR.

15:23:57 [nigel]

nigel: I'll ping Pierre.

15:24:33 [nigel]

glenn: I propose that we accept Pierre's new text for CR3 as circulated on 2016-01-19.

15:24:44 [nigel]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/imsc/imsc-cr3/spec/ttml-ww-profiles-rendered.html

15:25:04 [nigel]

nigel: I'm happy with that too.

15:25:35 [nigel]

RESOLUTION: The group approves publication of Pierre's updated IMSC 1 CR3 as circulated on 2016-01-19.

15:26:20 [nigel]

nigel: So you need the updated changes and you can proceed with this Philippe?

15:26:25 [nigel]

plh: That's correct, yes.

15:27:35 [nigel]

plh: I should be able to get approval tomorrow.

15:27:45 [nigel]

nigel: Thanks, I think that's all we can do right now on IMSC CR3 publication.

15:29:27 [nigel]

nigel: Should we perhaps discuss issues, even without Pierre present?

15:29:41 [nigel]

https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/130

15:29:51 [nigel]

glenn: I would like to note a couple of comments.

15:30:12 [nigel]

glenn: 1. I disagree that it is late in the process - we're not late regarding testing until we're ready for PR, and

15:30:22 [nigel]

... we have at least one CR to publish before then, so I don't consider us late.

15:30:38 [nigel]

... 2. I think Pierre is speculating that there may be an issue.

15:31:00 [nigel]

... 3. There's no more risk involved in making this change than accepting the other fixes that I've proposed.

15:31:14 [nigel]

... We already know that we will have to make a change and Pierre has agreed to that. In my estimation there's

15:31:24 [nigel]

... no more risk in making this change.

15:32:19 [nigel]

... Also if there is in fact an implementation that has a problem correctly processing tests with the recommended addition,

15:32:32 [nigel]

... then that would be an implementation that should not pass, which would be a greater risk.

15:34:01 [nigel]

... In other words it would be non-compliant for an implementation to fail because a recommended feature is present.

15:34:29 [nigel]

nigel: I think there's also a risk that test result contributors will not re-run the updated tests with their implementations.

15:35:21 [nigel]

glenn: In my opinion there should be no expectation that tests will not change right up until PR.

15:36:01 [nigel]

... Also we should have tests that only test the things we want them to and, unless we are testing warnings the test content should by policy generate no warnings.

15:37:40 [nigel]

nigel: In terms of issue #132, I think the tests in the dece space are not part of the set that need to be passed to exit CR.

15:38:19 [nigel]

glenn: A couple of tests did not specify a lineHeight which is not recommended in document instances, in the IMSC spec.

15:38:35 [nigel]

glenn: That was issue #133.

15:38:46 [nigel]

https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/133

15:40:05 [nigel]

nigel: So the view right now is to update the tests and as necessary request updated implementation reports.

15:40:41 [nigel]

glenn: I've already volunteered to make some changes to tests. Also I've just gone back and added "bug" label to #132 and #133 since I consider them to be bugs, as the reporter.

15:41:58 [nigel]

nigel: I think some people think the Editor should triage issues, set the status etc. Philippe, is there a consistent W3C approach?

15:42:17 [nigel]

plh: No, it varies across groups depending on the dynamic in the group. I tend to prefer everyone in the group to

15:42:29 [nigel]

... be empowered to fix things, but I understand not all groups may work well that way.

15:43:58 [nigel]

nigel: Re issue #136, I made a proposal. Any views on that?

15:44:02 [nigel]

glenn: Sounds reasonable to me.

15:44:19 [nigel]

... I think you're correct that we do need a normative statement that says you cannot specify both profiles in the

15:44:29 [nigel]

... same document using a ttp:profile element. That would be inconsistent.

15:45:15 [nigel]

nigel: That's interesting - are you suggesting that the example I constructed that includes them both should be

15:45:23 [nigel]

... prohibited from being conformant?

15:45:50 [nigel]

glenn: If you had a document that declared both profiles then if they landed on an IMSC processor that only supports

15:46:05 [nigel]

... one profile then most likely it would be rejected. That may be an unintended consequence.

15:47:18 [nigel]

nigel: Of course you're still permitted to omit any ttp:profile elements and be conformant.

15:47:39 [nigel]

glenn: I would suggest a SHOULD recommendation that both profiles should not be included in the same document.

15:48:40 [nigel]

... It does not have to be a SHALL.

15:48:59 [nigel]

nigel: My only contrived use case is where you want a standard off the shelf 'empty document' that can be used in

15:49:07 [nigel]

... any circumstance, for example in DASH streaming.

15:49:45 [nigel]

... I'm not sure how useful that is. An empty document could signal neither profile.

15:50:52 [plh]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/

15:50:52 [nigel]

glenn: I'd have to think about that some more. The intention is clearly not to allow documents to combine both text

15:51:06 [nigel]

glenn: and image content simultaneously.

15:51:15 [nigel]

Topic: TTML 1 and 2 editing

15:51:29 [nigel]

glenn: Can we make a redirect that points from Mercurial to github?

15:51:35 [nigel]

plh: Yes, I can do that.

15:51:57 [nigel]

glenn: Within the repos there is a spec/ directory within which there is an html document. We need a stub file in

15:52:03 [nigel]

... both of those locations that points to the new location.

15:52:16 [nigel]

plh: I can do that, maybe not today, but please chase me on Monday.

15:52:31 [nigel]

Action: plh Create stub files to redirect from Hg to github for TTML1 and TTML2

15:52:31 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-454 - Create stub files to redirect from hg to github for ttml1 and ttml2 [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2016-01-28].

15:53:02 [nigel]

atai: I also did this for the mapping document - I took a few lines from the IMSC directory and replaced the referenced spec.

15:54:35 [nigel]

nigel: Can I ask about date replacement in TTML2? We used the keywords replacement module in Hg. Have you put in a replacement for github?

15:55:12 [nigel]

glenn: I've done this using git-filters. I've added them under .gitfilters. You also need the config.

15:55:38 [nigel]

nigel: It would be good to update the README in the spec directory.

15:55:45 [nigel]

glenn: Ok I'll do that.

15:56:23 [nigel]

Action: gadams Update TTML2 spec/README to include config for keyword replacement.

15:56:23 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-455 - Update ttml2 spec/readme to include config for keyword replacement. [on Glenn Adams - due 2016-01-28].

15:58:05 [nigel]

Present+ simon_pieters(IRC_only)

16:02:18 [nigel]

nigel: We're out of time so I'll adjourn now. Thanks all. Meet same time again next week, 1 hour. [Adjourns meeting]

16:03:21 [nigel]

rrsagent, draft minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-tt-minutes.html nigel

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s/Runs through agenda./[Runs through agenda.]/

16:06:29 [nigel]

s/please could update/please could you update us/

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s/no more risk in making this change/no additional risk in making this change

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rrsagent, generate minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-tt-minutes.html nigel

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ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics

16:14:36 [nigel]

rrsagent, generate minutes

16:14:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/21-tt-minutes.html nigel

16:15:10 [plh]

glenn, the redirect should be done now

16:15:38 [glenn]

thanks!

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