IRC log of aria on 2016-01-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:29:58 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:30:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
17:30:00 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be
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I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
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Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
17:30:03 [trackbot]
Date: 21 January 2016
17:31:10 [fesch]
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present+ fesch
17:32:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
17:35:11 [cyns]
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scribe: fesch
17:36:45 [fesch]
chair: Rich
17:37:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]
17:37:10 [fesch]
TOPIC: Draft Decision Policy
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17:38:25 [jamesn]
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17:38:40 [mck]
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17:38:51 [fesch]
mc: significant change - will send separate calls for consensus for resolutions in a meeting, clarification 48 hrs is the minimum duration, unless in a hurry we will usually allow a longer time
17:39:49 [janina]
17:39:52 [fesch]
mc: structural change - consolidated stuff - steps up to the top
17:40:18 [fesch]
mc: expounds on process... can read it in the policy
17:41:26 [fesch]
rs: where is the 7 day piece?
17:41:35 [fesch]
mc: it has been removed
17:42:16 [fesch]
js: we don't want to box ourselves in, perhaps we need to meet a heartbeat publishing deadline... we would be stuck
17:43:08 [fesch]
js: we removed the 7 day part, to allow us more flexibility...
17:43:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]
17:43:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack janina
17:43:37 [fesch]
js: we can say you have 5 business days, but we don't want to be trapped
17:43:49 [fesch]
rs: there should be a maximum...
17:44:01 [fesch]
rs: who decides how long it will be?
17:44:47 [fesch]
mc: process for folks that know they won't make the meeting... they can ask for a longer period, chair already has control of the time limit
17:45:16 [fesch]
rs: trouble is we could resolve and then someone could want it reopened
17:45:44 [fesch]
mc: a wiki log of official decisions gives a history...
17:45:54 [fesch]
17:46:54 [fesch]
rs: concerned we will be back in the same state
17:47:33 [fesch]
js: don't know if we can stop stuff with policy, but we need to be able to control an agenda
17:47:53 [fesch]
mc: there are good reasons to miss - a dead cat for instance (?)
17:49:07 [fesch]
mc: the separate admin lists should help and focus attention - even if they miss
17:49:10 [bgaraventa1979]
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present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:49:51 [fesch]
rs: I will push for 2-3 days and want to know why they can't decide in that time frame... need a good reason
17:50:28 [fesch]
mc: unless the chair has a good reason to not grant an exception, I think the chair should grant an exception
17:50:58 [cyns]
+1 for moving on to aria 2.0
17:51:00 [fesch]
mc: we can fall back on policy if there is a problem
17:51:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
17:51:21 [jemma]
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17:51:32 [fesch]
ack me
17:51:45 [fesch]
fesch: does this policy apply to task forces?
17:52:36 [fesch]
js: a task force can make it's own decision policy
17:52:52 [fesch]
mc: I suggest a task force keep their policy informal
17:53:29 [fesch]
rs: I think we can continue the way we have been doing it (SVG a11y)
17:53:53 [Stefan]
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17:53:53 [fesch]
js: I support that approach, we only make policies when we run into problems
17:54:09 [fesch]
rs: trying to support folks that can't always make meetings
17:54:19 [fesch]
17:54:32 [jemma]
present+ jemmajaeunku
17:54:39 [MichaelC]
present: Michael_Cooper, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly, Fred_Esch, James_Nurthen, Janina_Sajka, Jemma_Ku, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Stefan_Schnabel, Tzviya_Siegman
17:54:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
17:54:53 [fesch]
rs: I will push for a 2-3 day solution on CFCs...
17:55:40 [fesch]
mk: for technical resolutions for content of a spec, is there an advantage to making it less than a week? Writing responses can take time... you have other work to do
17:55:50 [bgaraventa1979]
business days make sense, trouble committing on weekends
17:55:54 [fesch]
rs: but you would have attended the meeting....
17:56:29 [fesch]
mk: wondering how 2-3 days makes it quicker?
17:56:46 [fesch]
rs: it lets the editors move on to the next set of issues
17:57:05 [fesch]
js: this excludes holidays and weekends
17:57:22 [fesch]
js: Saturday and Sunday don't count
17:57:42 [fesch]
rs: I am talking about 2 -3 business days
17:58:07 [fesch]
js: if you have questions, bring it up at APA next week...
17:58:24 [fesch]
rs: we are currently operating under it yet...
17:58:45 [fesch]
mc: we need to be more careful adopting it...
17:58:55 [fesch]
rs: any questions?
17:59:11 [fesch]
---- silence ----
17:59:26 [fesch]
rs: Janina you can take it up at the APA
17:59:43 [fesch]
TOPIC Discuss Survey on possible Meeting Time change
17:59:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
18:00:17 [fesch]
rs: Mondays have a lot of no's....
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18:00:50 [fesch]
mc: Friday at 1pm is the preference and Thursday at 3pm Eastern is next...
18:00:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
18:01:32 [fesch]
rs: Joanie misses once every other month...
18:02:08 [fesch]
mc: Thursday at 12 was the third choice - effectively not changing
18:03:29 [ShaneM]
present+ ShaneM
18:03:51 [fesch]
mk: I marked at time slot as OK, didn't mark noon Eastern on Thursday but half past is OK
18:04:09 [MichaelC]
present+ Markus
18:04:49 [fesch]
tz: running meeting on Friday is a tough time, would cut off folks in Asia
18:05:28 [fesch]
rs: Friday is not a positive experience for many... and would take out Asia, Australia
18:06:31 [fesch]
rs: we checked it out, sounds like now is the best time...
18:06:52 [clown]
"This questionnaire is open from 2016-01-18 to 2016-01-25."
18:07:23 [fesch]
rs: will keep it as it is
18:08:00 [fesch]
jn: we are not making a change so why would we need a CFC?
18:08:18 [fesch]
RESOLUTION: meeting time stays the same
18:08:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
18:08:54 [fesch]
TOPIC Action-1830
18:09:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
18:09:59 [clown]
18:10:02 [fesch]
rs: changing text in ARIA spec
18:10:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
18:10:38 [clown]
18:11:09 [fesch]
When aria-hidden="true" is applied to an element, the element and all descendant elements are removed from the accessibility tree. If aria-hidden="true" is applied to an image, the entire image is removed from the accessibility tree.
18:11:11 [fesch]
When role="none" (or role="presentation") is applied to an element, the element's role semantics are removed, but the element's descendants remain exposed to the accessibility APIs. Most images do not have descendants elements, so the end result of applying role="none" is that entire element is removed, as if aria-hidden="true" had been applied. When an image has descendants (e.g. <img...
18:11:12 [fesch]
...src="example.svg"> or <svg>), that are exposed to assistive technologies as defined by the host language, applying role="none" will remove the image role semantics, but the exposed descendants will remain accessible to assistive technologies.
18:11:55 [fesch]
rs: svg is really a container....
18:12:38 [clown]
<img src="jpg, png, svg, etc">
18:13:07 [fesch]
rs: png doesn't support ARIA... James has some nice text...
18:15:38 [fesch]
rs: reads...
18:17:29 [fesch]
fesch: with an img with an SVG source, the SVG children do not appear in the DOM
18:18:08 [fesch]
js: need something about owned elements...
18:18:37 [mck]
18:18:39 [fesch]
js: is it true SVG never has required elements?
18:18:44 [fesch]
rs: true
18:19:59 [fesch]
action Rich to rewrite proposal to take into account that an img with source svg has no children and also to address the required owned elements
18:20:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2007 - Rewrite proposal to take into account that an img with source svg has no children and also to address the required owned elements [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-01-28].
18:21:10 [fesch]
Topic Review Pending Review Items
18:21:16 [fesch]
18:21:16 [trackbot]
action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2016-01-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:21:16 [trackbot]
18:21:36 [clown]
18:21:38 [mck]
can you not hear me
18:21:46 [mck]
18:21:53 [mck]
unmute me
18:22:53 [fesch]
mk: wanted to comment on img - don't want to recreate all text on role presentation
18:23:01 [fesch]
mk: 1724...
18:24:31 [fesch]
mk: from a testing point of view, I don't think the text would change any test cases, changes are oriented in providing better guidance
18:24:44 [fesch]
rs: what are the changes?
18:25:36 [fesch]
mk: goes through changes - ( you can see them in the action)
18:26:38 [tzviya]
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18:26:41 [fesch]
mk: issue with flattening text
18:28:20 [fesch]
mk: as long as the element in a grid cell gets focus and not the grid cell, then the screen reader can interact easier with interactive content
18:31:32 [fesch]
mk: ... second paragraph role does not imply a visual layout... in cleanup in 3 rd paragraph... 4th paragraph ...
18:32:13 [fesch]
rs: if in a cell and tab to table were does focus go?
18:32:30 [fesch]
mk: we don't want to add practices to this spec...
18:32:49 [fesch]
rs: are you saying you can tab to a button inside a grid cell?
18:34:22 [fesch]
mk: depends... (long example...) isn't any different than in ARIA 1.0 except in ARIA 1.0 the cell is expected to get focus
18:35:02 [Stefan]
18:35:17 [fesch]
rs: what I don't want to happen is land in the middle of a grid and not know where they are
18:36:04 [fesch]
mk: nothing in the spec that says anything about that - we don't put limits on what may be an accessible practice in some cases
18:36:19 [Stefan]
18:36:56 [fesch]
mk: in ARIA 1.0 no language on what could get focus inside a grid, there is language in practices
18:37:05 [clown]
"Grids allow the user to move focus between cells using two dimensional navigation."
18:37:16 [fesch]
js: grids allow 2D navigation in the grid...
18:38:47 [fesch]
mk: master doesn't give direction to folks writing guidance...
18:40:13 [fesch]
mk: I reduced what is in the master, was not aware of rowspan, colspan...
18:40:29 [mck]
7. Removed the following statement because the language of sections "7.4 Implicit WAI-ARIA Semantics," "7.5 Conflicts with Host Language Semantics," and "7.6 State and Property Attribute Processing" makes it obsolete:
18:40:30 [mck]
"However, if the author applies a non-global WAI-ARIA state or property to a native markup element that is acting as a row, such as the <code>tr</code> element in HTML, the author MUST also apply the <rref>row</rref> role to that element as stated in the section on <a href="#host_languages">Implementation in Host Languages</a>."
18:42:09 [fesch]
rs: but you are also saying that something can be used in a grid and we already state that in ARIA 1.1
18:42:47 [fesch]
mk: I assumed that was still useful to the reader... willing to remove if you think it is bloat
18:43:36 [fesch]
rs: where are the changes opening up interaction within the grid
18:44:29 [fesch]
mc: grid def is shorter... def grid provides 2d navigation
18:45:08 [fesch]
mc: limiting language is removed... first 2 sentences are more clear on purpose of a grid
18:45:53 [clown]
"Grids do not necessarily imply presentation. The grid construct describes relationships between data such that it may be used for different presentations."
18:46:36 [fesch]
mc: a grid is still logically tabular...
18:46:48 [fesch]
mc: a two dimensional composite
18:48:07 [fesch]
mc: keyboard management - second sentence and two bullets are new
18:49:14 [fesch]
rs: difference - an interactive element in a grid can receive focus without having to use the arrow navigation
18:49:52 [fesch]
rs: I don't have to land on a cell, I can land on an interactive item as the first focus item
18:50:15 [jamesn]
18:50:18 [jamesn]
18:50:44 [jamesn]
18:51:55 [fesch]
rs: what if you have 3 links in a cell?
18:52:20 [fesch]
mk: we will address that in the practices... there are a lot of different ways that it could work.
18:53:46 [fesch]
mc: lots of folks at TPAC supported this change
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a cell contains a single interactive widget that will not consume arrow key presses when it receives focus, such as a checkbox, button, or link authors MAY set focus on the interactive element contained in the cell. This allows the contained widget to be directly operable.
18:55:00 [clown]
If a cell contains a single interactive widget that will not consume arrow key presses when it receives focus, such as a checkbox, button, or link authors MAY set focus on the interactive element contained in the cell. This allows the contained widget to be directly operable.
18:55:15 [fesch]
mc; discussed at TPAC...
18:56:12 [fesch]
rs: I don't want people getting lost
18:56:32 [cyns]
I like it.
18:57:04 [fesch]
mc: very motivated... talking to vendors...
18:57:10 [jamesn]
18:57:26 [Stefan]
18:58:47 [fesch]
jd: says to mck I mean the exact expected behavior
18:59:33 [fesch]
jn: we often used a readonly role as table as use is in the wild
18:59:51 [fesch]
rs: anyone have issues about Matt's change
19:00:08 [fesch]
js: aria- readonly .... default is issue
19:00:34 [fesch]
mc: readonly is not allowed to be undefined...
19:01:41 [fesch]
mc: putting readonly on the grid is only an author convenience, unless the value of the cell only become editable when you interact with it.
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19:02:30 [fesch]
mc: readonly undefined on a grid would be useful... then when you press enter on a gridbox it becomes editable...
19:02:50 [fesch]
mc: does that have any mapping consequence
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19:03:04 [clown]
An undefined value for aria-readonly, i.e., aria-readonly is not specified, does not imply that a grid or a gridcell contains editable content.
19:03:46 [fesch]
mc is really mk -typo!
19:05:11 [fesch]
mk: found readonly behavior on screen reader vendors problematic
19:05:46 [fesch]
jd: we added a state readonly a few years ago
19:06:29 [joanie]
19:06:36 [fesch]
mk: I wish on a grid, readonly would be undefined....
19:07:05 [fesch]
rs: do we need another week on this?
19:07:20 [fesch]
js: my misgivings are minor
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RESOLUTION: accept action-1724 proposal
19:08:08 [fesch]
jd to do a pull
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate fesch
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RESOLUTION close action-1724
19:08:53 [clown]
19:08:53 [trackbot]
Sorry, but issue-633 does not exist.
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate fesch
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