IRC log of aapi on 2016-01-19

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19:46:39 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:46:39 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/19-aapi-irc
19:46:41 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
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19:46:43 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
19:46:43 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
19:46:44 [trackbot]: Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
19:46:44 [trackbot]: Date: 19 January 2016
19:46:56 [clown]: agenda?
19:47:03 [clown]: agenda: this
19:47:12 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1531 (All) Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text"
19:47:22 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Possibly create minimal JavaScript AT-SPI listener for automating CR tests.
19:47:35 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1535 (Joseph/James) AXAPI mappings for aria-current (notifications).
19:47:43 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1547 (Rich) Update test cases involving rowgroup.
19:47:54 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1585 (Cynthia/Jason) Add to section on AAPI differences highlighting the features of UIA.
19:48:04 [clown]: agenda+ ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps.
19:48:12 [clown]: agenda+ Question: need mapping entry for default value of aria-current?
19:48:20 [clown]: agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
19:49:34 [clown]: agenda+ Triage bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/26
19:49:56 [clown]: agenda+ be done.
19:50:06 [clown]: chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:38 [clown]: present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:46 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/19-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:59:06 [joanie]: present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
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20:02:09 [bgaraventa1979]: present+ Bryan_Garaventa
20:05:24 [joanie]: scribe: joanie
20:05:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]: present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:10:28 [joanie]: Zakim, take up item 1
20:10:28 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "ACTION-1531 (All) Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text"" taken up [from clown]
20:10:34 [clown]: action-1531?
20:10:34 [trackbot]: action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
20:10:34 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531
20:10:54 [joanie]: JS: I want to follow up on something discussed last week.
20:11:01 [joanie]: JS: It's about the IA2 mapping for role="text"
20:11:20 [joanie]: JS: I mentioned a mailing list discussion when the agreement was ROLE_TEXT_FRAME
20:11:26 [clown]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2015Sep/0017.html
20:11:33 [joanie]: JS: I found the email which captures it. See URL above.
20:11:59 [joanie]: JS: Background: Rich wrote to this list asking Alex and James Teh what their expectation was with respect to the textframe role and the text interface.
20:12:21 [joanie]: JS: (reads from thread cited above)
20:13:10 [joanie]: JS: At the end, James Teh asked if ROLE_SYSTEM_STATIC_TEXT was concerned.
20:13:21 [joanie]: JS: I don't know what that means, and no one answered him.
20:13:57 [joanie]: RS: It's always been for things like text displayed in message boxes.
20:14:32 [joanie]: RS: So the idea is you're going to have role="text" and then a label, right?
20:14:37 [joanie]: JS: Not necessarily.
20:15:01 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
20:16:49 [joanie]: RS: Let's say you put role="presentation" on a table.
20:18:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]: <td> Hello Joanie <img src=“collegephoto.jpg” alt=“crazywoman”> Diggs</td>
20:18:37 [joanie]: RS: What would you do with the above?
20:19:58 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation
20:20:52 [joanie]: Group: The TD is a textframe in IA2.
20:21:02 [joanie]: RS: I think the same thing will happen with role="text"
20:21:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]: scribe: Rich
20:21:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]: scribe: Joseph
20:22:11 [clown]: RS: Let say we have a row of these cells with content inside of them, how would they be read?
20:22:31 [clown]: JD: They're not mapped as text frames on my platform, but as separated block elements.
20:22:55 [clown]: JD: But with text frames, I'd have to look on a windows machine
20:23:04 [clown]: RS: I think you want to pause between the pieces.
20:23:26 [clown]: RS: They might come out as groups in AXAPI. And also UIA?
20:24:00 [clown]: CS: Not on UIA. They are just text elements.
20:24:14 [clown]: CS: I'd have to look to be sure.
20:24:42 [clown]: CS: To be sure if there are separate text chunks, or as a one long string.
20:25:59 [clown]: JD: I heard what you said and see the core-aam, but I question that FF is doing that.
20:26:28 [clown]: JD: Surkov made it such that ATK would map to ROLE_STATIC.
20:27:21 [clown]: JD: At my request, Surkov now maps span-like elements that have a property that requires an accessible object are being mapped as ATK_ROLE_STATIC
20:27:58 [clown]: JD: For all of those instances (<abbr>, <span> with onclick) are mapped on IA2 as text frames.
20:28:28 [clown]: JD: Ergo, IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAMES are treated as inlines.
20:29:05 [clown]: JD: This is what I think is happening.
20:32:16 [clown]: RS: Confirming that they become text frames in IA2.
20:33:13 [clown]: CS: In UIA they are no longer in the a11y tree. They are just part of a text pattern.
20:33:46 [clown]: CS: Even so, narrator is treating them as paragraphs (the cells).
20:34:00 [clown]: RS: So they are presented as separate.
20:34:06 [clown]: RS: What about Linux?
20:34:43 [clown]: JD: Each cell is mapped as a DIV. The role is ROLE_SECTION.
20:34:59 [clown]: RS: In all cases, then, they are separate blocks.
20:35:38 [clown]: RS: the problem with text frame is it is seen as a container.
20:35:43 [clown]: JD: For role="text".
20:35:50 [clown]: RS: Yes.
20:36:31 [clown]: RS: If you had a text frame followed by text, how would you read it?
20:36:50 [clown]: JD: Two separate things.
20:37:02 [clown]: RS: If you want it inline, then you don't want a text frame.
20:37:29 [clown]: RS: We want the same experience on all platforms.
20:37:38 [joanie]: s/Two separate things/the text would be inline/
20:37:48 [clown]: RS: UIA would map it as a text pattern, right Cynthia.
20:38:11 [clown]: CS: Yes. Text pattern has a way of marking spaces and format changes. That's what narrator is keying off of.
20:38:35 [clown]: RS: In the case of role text, we want it to be read together.
20:38:44 [clown]: RS: Would that happen onf UIA?
20:38:46 [clown]: CS: Yes
20:39:06 [joanie]: scribe: joanie
20:39:21 [clown]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2015Sep/0017.html
20:39:35 [joanie]: JD: So I think the next step is for someone to respond to that thread and say that we think James is right re static text.
20:39:41 [joanie]: JS: I'd like Rich to do that.
20:40:43 [joanie]: s/static text/ROLE_SYSTEM_STATICTEXT/
20:41:06 [joanie]: RS: I'm going to respond to xtech and refer to the thread.
20:45:01 [clown]: wai-xtech@w3.org
20:46:43 [clown]: IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAME
20:47:31 [joanie]: s/ ROLE_TEXT_FRAME/ IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAME/
20:47:53 [joanie]: RS: I'll also CC public-aria
20:48:15 [joanie]: RS: Unless they say something different, this should be done.
20:49:18 [joanie]: JS: So let's see what they say.
20:49:24 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:49:24 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Possibly create minimal JavaScript AT-SPI listener for automating CR tests." taken up [from clown]
20:49:30 [clown]: action-1533?
20:49:30 [trackbot]: action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
20:49:30 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1533
20:49:45 [joanie]: JD: I already postponed it until the end of February.
20:49:55 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:49:55 [Zakim]: agendum 2 was just opened, joanie
20:50:01 [joanie]: Zakim, close this item
20:50:01 [Zakim]: agendum 2 closed
20:50:02 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:50:02 [Zakim]: 3. ACTION-1535 (Joseph/James) AXAPI mappings for aria-current (notifications). [from clown]
20:50:03 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:50:03 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "ACTION-1535 (Joseph/James) AXAPI mappings for aria-current (notifications)." taken up [from clown]
20:50:09 [clown]: action-1535?
20:50:09 [trackbot]: action-1535 -- James Craig to Investigate the axapi mappings for aria-current. -- due 2015-08-18 -- OPEN
20:50:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1535
20:50:12 [joanie]: JS: This is more of an information update.
20:50:23 [joanie]: JS: Everything is done for mapping aria-current, except for one thing.
20:50:44 [joanie]: JS: Will Apple emit a notification?
20:50:46 [clown]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146012#c19
20:50:51 [joanie]: JS: The answer is at the above URL.
20:51:10 [clown]: AXAriaAttributeChanged
20:51:19 [joanie]: JS: There's no specific notification for aria-current, but there will be for the attribute change.
20:51:43 [joanie]: JS: I imagine it's emitted any time any ARIA attribute is changed.
20:52:05 [joanie]: JS: I replied to that saying that I assume that is a general notification and asking if they want that in the mapping spec.
20:52:24 [joanie]: RS: Are state changes listed?
20:52:29 [joanie]: JS: Yes they are in there.
20:52:38 [joanie]: RS: What about ARIA attributes?
20:52:41 [joanie]: JS: No.
20:52:47 [joanie]: RS: Then we probably need one.
20:52:53 [joanie]: JS: Do we?
20:53:26 [joanie]: JS: (Reads example of other attributes for AX API listed in the mapping spec)
20:53:47 [joanie]: RS: What other attributes besides aria-current will trigger this event?
20:53:53 [joanie]: JS: All of them.
20:54:09 [joanie]: RS: Oh. So we definitely need to say something.
20:54:51 [joanie]: JS: I believe AXAriaAttributeChanged is internal; not to be exposed to ATs. But I don't know.
20:54:57 [joanie]: RS: If we can't test it....
20:55:38 [joanie]: JS: If you put this AXAriaAttributeChanged in the table, you're telling ATs that they can listen for that.
20:55:47 [joanie]: RS: But how else would you do it?
20:55:55 [joanie]: JS: This is the only way, but it's not performant.
20:56:23 [joanie]: RS: What I think you want to do is list those things you think you should be watching for.
20:56:37 [joanie]: RS: But if we put it in the table, you have to be able to test it.
20:56:51 [joanie]: RS: Does the inspect tool let you listen for events?
20:57:13 [joanie]: JS: This is the case in Windows and Linux, but I don't know on the Mac.
20:57:40 [joanie]: JS: I asked in Bugzilla if they really want me to put this event in the mapping table for aria-current notifications.
20:57:54 [joanie]: JS: If they say yes, then I'll ask them how we can test it.
20:58:31 [joanie]: JS: So that's the update.
20:58:35 [joanie]: Zakim, next item
20:58:35 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "ACTION-1547 (Rich) Update test cases involving rowgroup." taken up [from clown]
20:58:42 [clown]: action-1547
20:58:42 [trackbot]: action-1547 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Update test test cases involving rowgroup to ensure they are included within a grid container and to ensure that the expected result matches the new mappings -- due 2015-10-27 -- OPEN
20:58:42 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1547
20:58:59 [joanie]: JS: This action is for you (Rich) to update test cases involving rowgroup.
20:59:30 [joanie]: RS: Should this be in the test harness?
20:59:59 [joanie]: RS: If we move it to the ARIA 1.1 product, we don't have to discuss it here.
21:00:20 [joanie]: JS: I'll do that.
21:01:18 [joanie]: issue-635
21:01:18 [trackbot]: issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
21:01:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/635
21:01:44 [joanie]: JS: It's associated with issue-635, which is the core mapping specification.
21:01:56 [joanie]: JS: We'd have to decouple it from this issue.
21:02:08 [joanie]: RS: Have we got the rowgroup mappings determined?
21:02:12 [joanie]: JS: Up to a point.
21:02:14 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
21:02:30 [joanie]: RS: We could write the test cases if we have the mappings.
21:03:05 [joanie]: JS: Ok. I'll associate it with the test harness.
21:03:21 [joanie]: JS: I put the URL in for the mappings (above)
21:03:28 [joanie]: JS: (Reads them)
21:03:34 [joanie]: JS: AX API is not mapped.
21:05:11 [joanie]: JD: I remember a bunch of discussion, but was that the definitive conclusion?
21:05:35 [clown]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239#c6
21:05:52 [joanie]: JS: James replied that if the focusable rowgroup must be exposed, then he would not expose the table as a table because it's an authoring error.
21:09:25 [joanie]: JD: Perhaps Steve Faulkner could use his tool to address James' question about real-world use cases
21:09:32 [joanie]: JS: I'll contact Steve about this.
21:12:08 [clown]: action-1686
21:12:08 [trackbot]: action-1686 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Drive mapping of aria-errormessage to aapis -- due 2015-07-23 -- OPEN
21:12:08 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1686
21:13:30 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-errormessage
21:20:17 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaDescribedBy
21:25:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-errormessage
21:28:50 [joanie]: Zakim, part
21:28:50 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:28:50 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #aapi
21:29:00 [joanie]: scribeOptions: -final
21:29:06 [joanie]: RRSAgent, stop
21:29:47 [joanie]: present+ Cynthia_Shelly
21:29:56 [joanie]: RRSAgent, stop