12:59:57 RRSAgent has joined #wot-ap 12:59:57 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-irc 13:00:55 michael has joined #wot-ap 13:01:32 katsu has joined #wot-ap 13:01:38 dsr has joined #wot-ap 13:03:49 Claes has joined #wot-ap 13:05:40 dape has joined #wot-ap 13:05:55 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2016Jan/0011.html 13:06:11 toru has joined #wot-ap 13:07:08 jhund has joined #wot-ap 13:07:38 Sebastian has joined #wot-ap 13:07:51 present+ Johannes_Hund, Joerg_Heuet, Matthias_Kovatsch, Sebastian_Kaebisch 13:07:53 present +Sebastian_Kaebisch 13:08:28 present+ Daniel_Peintner 13:08:56 Louay has joined #wot-ap 13:08:58 present+ Dave_Raggett 13:09:16 scribenick: dsr 13:09:31 Dave explains why we have had to change the call details. 13:09:33 present+ Toru_Kawaguchi 13:09:50 Johannes runs through the agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2016Jan/0011.html 13:09:53 present+ Louay_Bassbouss 13:10:24 q+ 13:10:25 Any additions to the agenda? [no] 13:10:34 ack kaz 13:11:10 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 13:11:12 Kaz: some of us have been unable to get our payments through and have asked Soumya for help. 13:12:11 Present+ Ari_Keraenen, Arne_Broering, Frank_Reusch, Michael_Koster, Taki_Kamiya, Yingying_Chen, Kaz_Ashimura 13:12:41 Dave: Soumya is working with a colleague to resolve this, and if necessary we can resolve this some otherway onsite during the meeting. 13:13:01 Topic: Topics/contributions for F2F 13:13:05 akeranen has joined #wot-ap 13:13:11 present+ Carsten_Bormann 13:13:17 rrsagent, make log public 13:13:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:13:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:13:52 Johannes: Are there any contributions that you can share with us in respect to the face to face agenda? 13:14:16 present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka 13:14:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:14:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:14:33 You can also send detail on the mailing list, and we will also see what we can for remote participation. 13:14:35 Meeting: WoT IG - AP TF 13:14:40 Chair: Johannes 13:14:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:14:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:15:07 s/You can/... You can/ 13:15:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:15:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:15:47 Topic: Plugfest howtos and preparation 13:16:33 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting_2016,_January,_26th_%E2%80%93_28th,_France,_Nice#Monday.2C_25th_of_January.2C_Plugfest 13:16:57 cabo has joined #wot-ap 13:17:17 s/Plugfest/Plugfest Nice f2f wiki/ 13:17:18 Johannes: that page includes a collection of links on how-to’s etc. 13:17:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:17:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:18:35 There are several topics: security, registry & discovery, scripting and HATEOAS. 13:18:48 s/There are/... There are/ 13:18:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:18:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:19:29 present+ Dan_Romascanu 13:19:31 Louay’s proposal covers scripting APIs 13:19:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:19:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:19:53 s/Louay's/... Louay's/ 13:20:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:20:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:20:08 In respect to HATEAOS there is a proposal to have a joint plugFest and plugREST event 13:20:29 any questions or feedback? 13:20:41 s/Louay/... Louay/ 13:20:46 s/In/... In/ 13:20:53 s/any/... any/ 13:20:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:20:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:22:49 s|s/Louay\'s/... Louay\'s/|| 13:22:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:22:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:23:14 Dave: I am working with Tibor Pardi on a remote demo on security in cooperation with Oliver - this is for the NodeJS web of things server project we started last year. 13:23:42 Johannes: please fill out the plugfest participants table 13:23:59 Dave: I hope we can do so on Friday - Tibor has also been busy recently 13:24:08 s/... In/Johannes: In/ 13:24:15 Topic: Review proposed TF-AP breakout topics 13:25:01 Johannes: I am collecting topics for break outs - we have some initial ideas in the agenda 13:25:54 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting_2016,_January,_26th_%E2%80%93_28th,_France,_Nice#TF_AP_Agenda TF AP topics 13:26:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:26:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:27:45 The draft agenda: 13:28:26 Finalizing Tech landscape 13:28:26 WoS scripting APIs 13:28:28 General design decisions, opinionated base principles 13:28:29 APIs for registering and discovery (joint discussion with DI?) 13:28:31 Security considerations and security handling in APIs (joint with SP) 13:28:32 APIs for the physical thing interaction a.k.a. “southbound API” (johnnyfive-like vs. data-driven/thing-driven) 13:28:34 Clarification / formulation of the relevant WG item 13:28:35 Protocol bindings 13:28:37 Definition of the interface nature between W3C and protocol SDOs 13:28:38 IRTF T2T: WoT over RESTful protocols (HTTP, CoAP) 13:28:40 Invited experts from others SDOs, such as XSF or BT SIG 13:28:41 Clarification / formulation of the relevant WG item 13:28:43 Plugfest wrap-up 13:28:44 Findings 13:28:45 Next steps 13:28:46 AOB & next steps for TF-AP 13:29:19 Johannes briefly introduces each of the agenda items 13:29:36 i/Finalizing/[[/ 13:29:40 i/Johannes/]]/ 13:29:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:29:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:30:40 s/General/  General/ 13:30:51 s/APIs/  APIs/ 13:31:00 s/Security/  Security/ 13:31:23 Johannes notes that there will be an XMPP standard foundation summit will occur on the same day 13:31:26 s/Definition/  Definition/ 13:31:36 parallel meeting: XMP Standards Foundation Summitnin Brussels 13:31:39 we will see if it is possible to have a remote joint session 13:31:42 s/IRTF T2T/  IRTF T2T/ 13:32:00 s/Invited experts/  Invited experts/ 13:32:08 OIC are also having the member meeting in Bangkok 13:32:17 s/Clarification/  Clarification/ 13:32:28 There is also a parallel OIC meeting. We weren’t able to get someone from OIC for this face to face. 13:32:29 1/24 - 1/29 13:32:36 s/Findings/  Findings/ 13:32:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:32:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:32:44 I will be in Bangkok 13:33:39 Johannes: we will also discuss implementation feedback from the plugfest etc. and a roadmap for what we want to cover before the April face to face. 13:33:58 s/APIs for registering/  APIs for registering/ 13:34:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:34:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz 13:34:55 Johannes invites people to add new agenda items to the wiki as appropriate 13:35:16 Topic: Working group items “API” and “protocol bindings” 13:35:56 https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Proposals_for_WoT_WG_work_items 13:36:10 Johannes discussions the proposed work items for the Working Group that are on the wiki page above 13:36:30 s/discussions/discusses/ 13:37:07 It would be very good to have other people commenting and adding their support etc. 13:37:33 we want to clarify each of the proposed work items with a very clear scope. 13:37:52 This includes the expected deliverable(s) for each item. 13:38:38 If you cannot attend the face to face we still want to hear from you, either on the wiki or via email 13:39:40 Johannes strongly encourages participation from many voices on the working group charter 13:41:19 He points to the comments in the wiki on the scripting API related deliverables 13:41:36 q+ 13:42:09 ack dsr 13:44:16 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Proposals_for_WoT_WG_work_items#Web_of_Things_scripting_API Scripting API 13:44:25 Dave: Given that different programming languages will have different API design conventions, we need to clarify our aims here as a single API definition will have some assumptions in respect to design conventions. 13:45:38 Johannes: we should try to keep it as portable as possible 13:46:59 Dave: suggest a two level approach, a functional definition independent of design conventions and normative instantiations for specific design conventions, e.g. promises and JavaScript 13:47:32 q+ 13:47:46 dromasca has joined #wot-ap 13:47:46 ack cabo 13:47:57 Johannes: we could also consider a low level basic API that can be used to implement high level APIs for specific contexts 13:48:45 Carsten: is there a narrow waist (thin part) in the stack of layers, and is this a programming API or is it a web API? 13:49:11 I would like us to focus on Web APIs 13:49:43 Johannes: an interesting point, I am not sure it is one or the other 13:49:54 q+ 13:50:27 q+ 13:50:52 Carsten: with web APIs for the narrow waist, we still get interoperability 13:51:39 Johannes: we need APIs at the scripting level for generality 13:52:47 Carsten: many of these things are hard to discuss in the abstract, we need concrete examples 13:52:55 Johannes: agreed 13:53:17 ack dape 13:54:00 q+ 13:54:02 Daniel: I wanted to come back to the term Web API, for me that is similar to WebIDL, and that is where I want to focus on 13:54:54 Carsten: there is active discussion on how to describe Web APIs with several formats vying for this. 13:55:09 RAML, RESTdesc, Hydra, 13:55:16 HAL 13:55:36 In the T2TRG we’ve been using HAL as one way to describe these interfaces, the jury is still out there 13:55:41 ack dsr 13:56:31 ack cabo 13:57:43 Dave: I am interested in APIs at the application level that respects the decoupling protocols, message formats and communications patterns - this is a critical point for the generality of the web of things as a platform of platforms. We can have APIs for other layers but these should be a separate discussion 13:58:51 Carsten: I don’t think this is possible as it will be necessary to expose some of the low layer details 13:59:21 Dave: application code will have access to metadata e.g. communications and security metadata 14:00:12 q+ 14:00:20 Johannes summarises the discussion 14:00:54 One position is to provide protocol layer API, another is to provide higher level APIs 14:00:59 q+ 14:01:12 ack Michael 14:01:24 q+ 14:02:05 Michael: it isn’t a matter of either-or, it is more about APIs at different asbtraction layers, we need both 14:02:18 Dave: agrees 14:03:48 Carsten: APIs need to match the design abstractions for a protcol. If you avoid that you are likely to have a leaky mechanism that leaks info across layers 14:04:51 Dave: I agree with Carsten that to proceed effectively, we need some concrete examples 14:06:04 Louay: regarding the abstraction level, we already have that from thing descriptions (properties, actions and events). This was an input to the API I proposed 14:07:10 Johannes: we can proceed from the thing model, and we can proceed from the protocol layer 14:08:06 q+ 14:08:31 q- 14:08:43 q+ 14:08:53 We don’t need either-or rather we need to clariify the use cases for each API 14:09:26 Louay: the W3C 2nd screen API is already an abstract API with at least 2 implementations. 14:09:54 This is one example of an abstract API that runs on top of different protocols 14:10:05 ack Louay 14:10:10 ack Mich 14:10:54 Michael: I have been abstracting REST APIs, and this provides a consistent approach across protocols 14:10:58 q+ 14:11:12 ack cabo 14:12:04 Carsten: I completely agrees with Michael, but rather it works with a shim protocol on top of the full protocols, and we should be careful in what we say 14:12:26 Michael: you’re right I was focusing on hypertext 14:12:43 q+ 14:13:23 ack jhund 14:13:24 Michael: but these protocols are just transport layer and doesn’t provide the application layer abstraction 14:14:06 q+ 14:15:19 Johannes: we should bring in the people who have been using specific protocols, e.g. OIC who have worked on REST over MQTT, this wasn’t accepted by all though. I think we need to keep the question of app level vs protocol evel 14:16:02 REST over XMPP was the OIC discussion 14:16:42 q+ 14:17:06 ack dsr 14:17:52 q+ 14:18:15 ack cabo 14:18:39 Dave: presents abstract layer diagram and invites us to be careful to identify which layers we dealing with and to find a set of use cases the stress the solutions 14:19:31 Carsten: some of the protocols span layers, e.g. XMPP, treating HTTP as just a transport leads you down the SOAP path 14:19:41 ack kaz 14:20:14 Kaz: some discussion on OIC in Sapporo, and we should investigate OIC’s approach further 14:20:47 UPnP consortium has merged their work into OIC, and we now have a liaison with OIC as a consequence 14:21:50 Dave: unfortunately we couldn’t get someone from OIC for the January F2F, but hope to do so in future either in a telecon or the April F2F 14:21:50 I will be working on OIC data models and protocols but I'm not up to speed yet 14:22:34 Johannes: yes there is an OIC meeting at the same time … 14:23:32 Johannes: industrial alliances may be focusing on a solution for a particular problem space, where as we need to find commonalities across problem spaces 14:23:39 s/as a consequence/as a consequence. also we got some data model proposal from them. (will forward it to the group later)/ 14:24:49 I agree that we need to talk to different alliances, but we won’t be picking one, rather finding a way to define an abstraction that enables interoperability across platforms. 14:25:03 Is that good enough for today? 14:25:24 Dave: sounds good to me, let’s take this forward to the face to face 14:26:06 +1 14:26:20 Johannes: we will need to work on the technology landscape - there is a document skeleton on GitHub and will try to move this forward by the face to face. 14:27:17 We had a good discussion with lots of energy! My thanks to everyone. 14:28:35 Please don’t forget to register for the face to face (deadline is this Friday) we will look into the problems with the payment mechanism. If you have an implementation for the plugfest please add yourself to the participant’s table. 14:28:55 Tomorrow there is will be full IG telecon in preparation for the F2F 14:29:04 … end of meeting. 14:29:28 rrsagent, make make minutes 14:29:28 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make make minutes', dsr. Try /msg RRSAgent help 14:31:12 p.s. the slide Dave showed is slide 18 in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/web-of-things.pdf 14:31:18 rrsagent, make minutes 14:31:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-wot-ap-minutes.html dsr 14:32:32 katsu has left #wot-ap 14:37:30 8 14:45:59 rrsagent, stop