14:43:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:43:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-irc
14:43:48 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
14:44:01 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
14:44:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
14:44:20 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:44:20 <Zakim> Present: Laura, Shawn, Alan, Jim, John, Srini, Wayne, Andrew, Erich, jon_avila, AWK, Katie, Haritos-Shea
14:44:25 <shawn> present:
14:44:27 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:44:27 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
14:44:28 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
14:44:59 <allanj> Chair: AndrewK and JimA
14:52:32 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:15:41 <allanj> Agenda+ scribe
15:15:43 <allanj> ​Agenda+ Review timeline and tasks for First Public Working Draft (FPWD)
15:15:44 <allanj> Agenda+ Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/81151/prep-for-fpwd/
15:16:05 <allanj> agenda?
15:16:21 <allanj> 	​Agenda+ Review timeline and tasks for First Public Working Draft (FPWD)
15:16:47 <allanj> Agenda+ Timeline and tasks for First Public Working Draft (FPWD)
15:17:57 <AWK> AWK has joined #lvtf
15:18:01 <allanj> present+ jim
15:18:05 <AWK> +AWK
15:18:13 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:19:09 <allanj> zakim, agenda 3 = 2
15:19:09 <Zakim> agendum 3 replaced
15:19:16 <allanj> agenda?
15:19:52 <allanj> Agenda+ Timeline and tasks for First Public Working Draft (FPWD)
15:20:09 <allanj> zakim, clear agenda
15:20:09 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:20:25 <allanj> Agenda+ scribe
15:20:40 <allanj> Agenda+ timeline and tasks for First Public Working Draft (FPWD)
15:21:01 <allanj> agenda+ Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/81151/prep-for-fpwd/
15:25:36 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #LVTF
15:30:10 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:32:49 <shawn> +Shawn
15:33:07 <shawn> +JohnRochford
15:33:10 <shawn> +Wayne
15:33:10 <allanj> zakim, close item 1
15:33:10 <Zakim> agendum 1, scribe, closed
15:33:11 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:33:11 <Zakim> 2. timeline and tasks for First Public Working Draft (FPWD) [from allanj]
15:33:16 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:33:17 <Zakim> Present: jim, AWK, Shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne
15:33:21 <laura> I need to drop off the call early as I have an Accessible Online Learning Community Group meeting starting at the top of the hour.
15:33:21 <shawn> +Laura
15:33:30 <shawn> s/I need to drop off the call early as I have an Accessible Online Learning Community Group meeting starting at the top of the hour./
15:33:42 <shawn> scribe: Laura
15:34:14 <allanj> open item 2
15:34:45 <allanj> Topic: Timeline FPWD
15:34:52 <laura> Jim: Making good progress on the timeline.
15:34:59 <shawn> zakim, take up agenda 2
15:34:59 <Zakim> agendum 2. "timeline and tasks for First Public Working Draft (FPWD)" taken up [from allanj]
15:35:35 <laura> Jim: Mid Feb to have our work done.
15:36:17 <laura> …lots of work ahead. Surveys etc.
15:37:22 <allanj> close item 2
15:37:24 <laura> …please be diligent in completing your surveys.
15:37:36 <shawn> zakim, take up next
15:37:36 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/81151/prep-for-fpwd/" taken up [from allanj]
15:37:49 <allanj> Topic: document flow
15:38:08 <shawn> s/our work done./our work done -- to get WCAG WG approval and get published before CSUN.
15:38:56 <laura> Jim: 1st question on Overall Organization.
15:39:30 <laura> Wayne: Has a list of a lot of  functional limitations.
15:39:55 <laura> Wayne: He can post it.
15:40:40 <laura> …will send it out to the group.
15:40:57 <shawn> wayne, is it an update of https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/5 ?
15:42:05 <laura> Wayne: has an update from issue 5
15:42:07 <shawn> [ shawn notes that double vision / convergence is missing -- I've got a note to add that...]
15:44:35 <laura> Jim: overall happy
15:44:46 <allanj> Topic: survey - Level of Detail
15:45:57 <laura> Jon: Not much we can do about raising grade level in the citations.
15:46:24 <laura> Jon: ways we can handle it.
15:47:09 <laura> Wayne: confused about low vision and what it is from this document. There seem to be many candidates and a confusing resolution.
15:47:52 <laura> Wayne: Need to be clear.
15:48:07 <laura> … in section 2.1
15:48:29 <shawn> current concluding paragraph: "In considering user needs, this document uses a broad scope of low vision to include all visual impairments except significant blindness — including impairments from aging, color vision deficiencies (often called "color blindness"), and impairments that are often categorized as legally blind yet with sufficient vision to see user interfaces in some situations."
15:48:31 <laura> …will take another look at it.
15:49:14 <laura> Jim: Alan is concerned that section 3.7 Printing only covers customized text and did not cover the content that is covered by the American Council for the Blind at http://acb.org/node/750 as authored by the Council of Citizens with Low Vision International.
15:49:32 <laura> ..will take that up with Allan.
15:49:49 <allanj> s/Allan/Alan
15:49:56 <laura> AWK:  some things we do cover and some things we don’t cover.
15:50:12 <laura> …need more details from Allan.
15:50:56 <allanj> action: Jim to sync with Alan about ACB lowvision.
15:50:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Sync with alan about acb lowvision. [on Jim Allan - due 2016-01-20].
15:51:29 <laura> shawn: we are talking more in general.
15:53:01 <shawn> q+
15:53:18 <JohnRochford> q+
15:53:37 <allanj> scribe: jallan
15:54:05 <allanj> laura: make sure we bring in usecases from WCAG
15:54:24 <allanj> ... we added to the list
15:54:35 <allanj> shawn will double check.
15:54:57 <shawn> scribe: Wayne
15:55:15 <shawn> ack me'
15:55:19 <shawn> ack me
15:55:50 <Wayne> shawn: Charts and graphs: Maybe print out the alt-text
15:56:26 <Wayne> allanj: inserting page breaks. need a page break.
15:56:47 <shawn> action: Shawn check out http://acb.org/node/750 to see if we include what is appropriate
15:56:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Check out http://acb.org/node/750 to see if we include what is appropriate [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-01-20].
15:56:59 <Wayne> JohnR: Why are we talking about printing? We are the W3C.
15:57:06 <shawn> action: Shawn check if included https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Jan/0001.html
15:57:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Check if included https://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016jan/0001.html [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-01-20].
15:57:44 <shawn> fyi, Printing Customized Text http://www.tader.info/printing.html
15:57:50 <AWK> q+
15:57:55 <shawn> ack j
15:57:55 <AWK> ack jo
15:58:16 <Wayne> allanj: Many people print objects; Print is a viewport and it is frustrating for people who use printing.
15:58:18 <allanj> ack awk
15:58:41 <shawn> ACTION: Shawn printing notes charts, alt text, page breaks....
15:58:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Printing notes charts, alt text, page breaks.... [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-01-20].
15:59:10 <Wayne> awk: I think we are going to hear about this. We are going to be asked about printing. It is not grey when it is done correctly. Put it in and ask for comments.
15:59:12 <laura> bye.
15:59:31 <Wayne> shawn: Curious about what is gery...
15:59:46 <Wayne> s/gery/grey/
16:01:10 <Wayne> awk: Because it is not on the web. We have mechanisms to change the screen, but we need to address it.
16:01:16 <shawn> q+ to say it is an important way for some people with low vision to be able to access web content
16:01:25 <shawn> ack me
16:01:25 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say it is an important way for some people with low vision to be able to access web content
16:01:41 <Wayne> q+
16:02:02 <Wayne> Shawn: It is a way to access web content.
16:02:08 <shawn> ack w
16:03:59 <allanj> shawn: for some people printing is not an issue, for others it is. (dark background - not print)
16:04:08 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #lvtf
16:04:55 <Wayne> allanj: There is white inke for tatooing for light on dark polarity.
16:06:47 <Wayne> awk: Do we feel we have gone through the user needs. In part the answer is there is not they are there. I feel like we get information when we discuss these things.
16:07:18 <Wayne> allanj: Maybe we can start at the bottom.
16:07:56 <allanj> s/allanj: There is white inke for tatooing for light on dark polarity./
16:09:02 <Wayne> shawn: Check the requirements. What should be in the PR. What should be a formal note and what should not be a note. Do we want this in the a separate document.
16:09:22 <allanj> s/PR/TR
16:10:00 <Wayne> johnR: One thing that came up. It was really overwhelming.
16:10:08 <allanj> shawn: scope document, appendix for other information, or other documents.
16:10:18 <Wayne> shawn: Is it inside or outside
16:10:36 <Wayne> allanj: It can be in or out of the document.
16:11:28 <Wayne> shawn: If it is PR document it requires more process to change.
16:11:56 <Wayne> awk: This has less content.
16:12:58 <Wayne> s/content/importance/
16:13:18 <Wayne> johnR: What is TR space.
16:13:51 <Wayne> shawn: TR is technical review. It requires more formal process.
16:14:03 <Wayne> s/PR/TR/
16:15:16 <shawn> s/TR is technical review/TR is technical report
16:15:23 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: All ancillary documents supporting the main document will be in separate documents and not in TR space.
16:15:32 <JohnRochford> +1
16:15:35 <shawn> +1
16:15:38 <allanj> +1
16:15:40 <Wayne> +1
16:16:01 <AWK> +1
16:17:03 <allanj> Topic: 3.6.4 Scrollbars
16:18:00 <Wayne> awk: what is the underlying issue. Is it scrolling or uni-directional.
16:19:06 <Wayne> allanj: When scroll bars are not present and the user enlarges print the page is unreadable. <div> with controls and you can't get there.
16:20:04 <allanj> user requirement: users need to be able to scroll, and have indicator of location within the document
16:21:16 <Wayne> awk: WCAG response user need to be able know how far you are in the document to get through the document.  What if you can scroll in some way.
16:21:49 <Wayne> awk: On change, on drop down, how do you know about a solution.
16:22:25 <shawn> +1 to changing "scrollbars" to more broadly what users need to be able to do
16:22:52 <Wayne> awk: We have to be clear what we are asking. We want to put a stake in the ground to keep us in one technical mode.
16:23:02 <shawn> +1 ...  and not the specific way to do it
16:23:16 <allanj> topic: 3.6.3 Proximity of related information
16:23:23 <Wayne> Topic: Proximity of related information
16:23:56 <Wayne> allanj: Tool tips and error messages.
16:24:10 <Wayne> awk: how close is close enough.
16:25:09 <allanj> wayne: problem of limited viewport, functionally work. some time hard to have things close together with very large print.
16:25:30 <AWK> Q+ to ask if table headings would be related information as an example
16:25:35 <allanj> ... you have to know its there, you can get to it, and you can get back to your previous location
16:27:09 <allanj> awk: does this include table headers
16:27:59 <Wayne> awk: Info and Relationships like table headings. Table headings have to be near. But that would be a big ask. People will ask very relevant questions a table with 20 rows. With 48 point font it wont fit.
16:28:47 <Wayne> allanj: This is a scope. Do we put this in the introductions. Table headings.
16:29:28 <allanj> awk: More Examples to cover the scope
16:30:16 <Wayne> awk: In the use experience paragraph. When we write user requiremetns information is as close as possible. When we get to SC's we find things we cannot do.  There may be gaps.
16:30:24 <shawn> q+
16:30:28 <shawn> ack a
16:30:28 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to ask if table headings would be related information as an example
16:30:34 <shawn> ack s
16:31:13 <allanj> shawn: this need tweaking.
16:31:50 <allanj> s/requiremetns/requirements
16:32:00 <Wayne> shawn: +1 second point. This needs tweeking. This warrants more thinking. Even with a limited scope this would be difficult.
16:32:06 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
16:33:31 <Wayne> awk: Users need to find information that is related. If you know error were at the top of the page and there is a key to get you there and back. Maybe it is not just proximity maybe it is just you need know it is there and how to get to it.
16:34:41 <Wayne> shawn: Maybe proximity is not the point. Maybe access to the information is the point.
16:35:05 <shawn> s/ is not the point/ is not the only point
16:35:17 <allanj> our user needs document informs success criteria and best practices, structure information accordingly
16:35:37 <shawn> s/Maybe access to the information is the point./Finding information is a main point.
16:36:34 <Wayne> trackbot, close meeting
16:36:34 <trackbot> Sorry, Wayne, I don't understand 'trackbot, close meeting'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:36:57 <Wayne> trackbot, end meeting
16:36:57 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:36:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jim, AWK, Shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, Laura
16:37:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:37:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:37:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:37:06 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-actions.rdf :
16:37:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim to sync with Alan about ACB lowvision. [1]
16:37:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-irc#T15-50-56
16:37:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn check out http://acb.org/node/750 to see if we include what is appropriate [2]
16:37:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-irc#T15-56-47
16:37:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn check if included https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Jan/0001.html [3]
16:37:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-irc#T15-57-06
16:37:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shawn printing notes charts, alt text, page breaks.... [4]
16:37:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-lvtf-irc#T15-58-41