15:32:59 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 15:32:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-wai-wcag-irc 15:33:01 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:33:03 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 15:33:03 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:33:04 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:33:04 Date: 12 January 2016 15:33:12 agenda+ Virtual FtF planning (duration? Video?) 15:33:23 agenda+ TPAC meeting planning 15:33:30 agenda+ UAAG/ATAG update 15:33:39 agenda+ Survey (Same one as last week, but the first question has been changed and a final question added): https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20161stSurvey/ 15:33:53 agenda+ Github issues walkthru. https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues 15:33:59 Chair: AWK 15:40:23 Wayne has joined #wai-wcag 15:41:55 laura has joined #wai-wcag 15:47:24 AWK has joined #wai-wcag 15:57:49 david_000 has joined #wai-wcag 15:57:49 zakim, code? 15:57:49 I have been told this is WCAG https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mf2aaeee7cfba75b6e38fe4f173844e0c code 642 418 206 password wcag 16:00:55 Sarah_Swierenga has joined #wai-wcag 16:02:24 david_000_ has joined #wai-wcag 16:02:55 JF has joined #wai-wcag 16:03:40 password is in the IRC header 16:04:22 Present+ JF 16:04:31 +AWK 16:04:37 present+ Joshue108 16:05:20 Kathy has joined #wai-wcag 16:05:37 Hi - can you tell me what the webex password is? I cannot connect 16:06:08 scribemic:Sarah_Swierenga 16:06:44 scribenic: Sarah_Swierenga 16:06:47 present+ Laura 16:07:04 Scribe: Sarah_Swierenga 16:07:14 third time's the charm! :-) 16:07:21 agenda? 16:07:42 regrets+ Jan 16:08:05 +MichaelC 16:08:09 Zakim, take up item 1 16:08:09 agendum 1. "Virtual FtF planning (duration? Video?)" taken up [from Joshue108] 16:08:34 Item 1: face-to-face CSUN 16:09:16 jamesn has joined #wai-wcag 16:09:18 AKW: no formal f-t-f this year. F-t-t at TPAC 16:09:21 s/scribemic:Sarah_Swierenga// 16:09:32 s/scribenic: Sarah_Swierenga// 16:10:12 shorton has joined #wai-wcag 16:10:25 david_000 has joined #wai-wcag 16:10:49 Katie: no f-to-f at Deque? 16:11:29 jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag 16:11:30 AWK: want to have virtual f-to-f to gather the group 16:11:34 q+ to say special travel is harder to organize 16:12:29 laura has left #wai-wcag 16:12:39 scribe list updated,Wayne to scribe next week, Katie week after. 16:12:48 michael: videoconferencing? 16:12:50 ack mich 16:12:50 MichaelC, you wanted to say special travel is harder to organize 16:13:02 q+ to say special travel is harder to organize 16:13:11 awk: probably not for quality reasons 16:13:21 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 16:13:33 laura has joined #wai-wcag 16:13:37 jnurthen has joined #wai-wcag 16:13:45 Wayne+ 16:14:02 Present+ Katie Haritos-Shea 16:14:05 awk: maybe videoconferencing or webex, and some in-person locations. goal to deepen connections in group 16:14:20 +Wayne 16:14:47 ack me 16:14:47 MichaelC, you wanted to say special travel is harder to organize 16:14:57 q+ 16:15:04 ack ryla 16:15:04 ack ry 16:15:06 awk: reaction to virtual face-to-face? 16:15:31 q+ 16:15:51 ack w 16:16:05 wayne: could the one at TPAC be virtual? 16:16:16 q+ 16:16:27 q= 16:16:32 q= 16:16:33 awk: will have a phone call, but may not have capability to have videoconferencing 16:16:45 q+ Ryladog 16:16:50 q+ 16:17:03 ack mic 16:18:16 michaelc: webex may be available at TPAC 16:18:59 ack ry 16:19:02 michaelc: routinely have a way to share visuals and powerpoints 16:19:58 katie: what about WWW2016 in montreal? 16:20:32 plans to be at W4A 16:20:41 awk: for most travel is difficult, so exploring other ways to have face-to-face 16:20:57 so we're on for TPAC Lisbon? 16:21:07 Cool 16:21:20 awk: yes, we're on for TPAC Lisbon 16:22:00 jk: M-Enabling? (June 13-14) 16:22:09 awk: not likely for f-t-f 16:23:19 Zakim, take up item 2 16:23:19 agendum 2. "TPAC meeting planning" taken up [from Joshue108] 16:23:35 Planning on meeting F2F at TPAC in September 16:23:37 https://www.w3.org/blog/2015/09/tpac-2016-dates-and-location-announced/ 16:23:43 item2 TPAC meeting planning - already covered - meeting at TPAC in Sept 16:24:12 zakim, take up item 3 16:24:12 agendum 3. "UAAG/ATAG update" taken up [from Joshue108] 16:24:52 awk: uatag group is closed. discussions with Judy about the group 16:25:42 awk: uaag/atag are both closed. future is currently under discussion for implications for WCAG 16:25:48 zakim, take up item 4 16:25:48 agendum 4. "Survey (Same one as last week, but the first question has been changed and a final question added): https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20161stSurvey/" taken up [from 16:25:51 ... Joshue108] 16:25:54 awk: survey 16:26:18 q? 16:27:03 TOPIC: Issue 80 16:27:08 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20161stSurvey/results 16:28:17 q+ 16:28:22 awk: general idea is that F3 and whether we should have a change to the procedure to indicate that it's about when the image is not displayed, and that the image is accounted for programatically 16:29:02 can we change line "For all images added to the content via CSS, HTML style attributes, or dynamically in script as background images:" to "For all background images added to the content via CSS, HTML style attributes, or dynamically in script:" 16:29:13 q? 16:29:15 awk: F3 is just for 1.1.1, but is not necessarily for making it visual 16:29:17 awk: 16:30:11 awk: want to see a failure identified for a contrast, as a new item 16:31:02 +1 to James 16:31:11 +1 Wayne 16:31:21 +1 to James 16:31:24 +1 16:31:33 james: wants to clarify that this is for all background images 16:32:28 awk: wayne doesn't want to use background images for anything other than background image functionality 16:32:45 ack me 16:33:06 awk: this change wouldn't be for the march release 16:33:21 q? 16:33:58 awk: no change for current round. this proposed change would be in the sept release 16:34:16 I agree it's better to keep the two concepts separate as lack of alternative applies to 1.1.1 and another HC issue possiblies to 1.3.1 16:34:40 I would be ok with leaving the comment open and making the change 16:34:52 michaelc: keep the comment open while we're working on it, so we don't forget about it. Issue 80 16:35:36 awk: this comment has been here since March 2015, so would like to do something - new issue that says we need to make a new technique 16:36:33 michaelc: timeline of the issue shouldn't necessarily be a factor 16:37:30 joshua: accessible alternatives for images in background elements in css. developers are putting images in backgrounds that are important 16:38:05 joshua: for cases when it's not robust 16:38:26 q+ 16:38:26 awk: if it's not conveyed to AT then there is a failure 16:38:30 q? 16:39:22 joshua: how do i provide alt text for background images - not sure what to recommend 16:39:31 ack jon 16:39:34 awk: we need to work on this 16:39:43 +1 to Josh's point - real world is critical 16:40:04 s/joshua/Joshue 16:40:12 john: need to make sure we still have a failure. am okay with creating new issue. change and the new failure should come at same time. 16:40:46 sarah: thanks Joshue for correction. sorry about that 16:41:06 awk: not thinking about high contrast mode being part of 1.1.1 16:41:08 q- 16:41:41 awk: propose to accept this change and add a new issue. Consensus: 16:41:44 +1 16:41:53 awk: any objections: 16:41:57 sure, but I'd also like some clarification on AT 16:42:03 A la Jons point High Contrast (OS level) is AT. just not 'off the shelf' etc - we should park this for future UA/WCAG work IMo. 16:42:15 I am also concerned with the use of "assistive technology" 16:42:45 I agree that it's not okay 16:43:16 michaelc: have loosened the requirements, which could be an issue with interpretation 16:43:51 SS: I think it is a 1.1.1 issue. 16:43:59 awk: want to clarify that while the bground image topic is an issue 1.1.1, but the contrast issue 16:44:05 SS: I suggest leave it where it is and produce another one. 16:44:07 AWK: Why 16:44:17 SS: Its a non text content that has no alternative. 16:44:17 sarah: this is a 1.1.1 issue - non-text content that doesn't have an alternative 16:44:32 AWK: If you have background image with a text alt via aria label. 16:44:44 AWK: Then it would pass, which you are talking about. 16:45:11 sarah: would provide a visible text alternative - replacement 16:45:14 SS: The way I would do this is to prove a visible text alt, as a replacement. 16:45:20 AWK: Thats fine but not the only one. 16:45:41 SS: Its still a text alt to an image. Its not just about programmatic alternatives. 16:45:54 SS: the use of the term AT does imply that those with AT will have access. 16:46:03 SS: What about those without AT? 16:46:03 shorton: still a text alternative to an image, but still a programatic and visual for those not using AT 16:46:27 s/SS/shorton 16:46:41 awk: does replacement have to use text? 16:46:45 shorton: no 16:46:48 awk: 16:47:23 awk: then it's not 1.1.1 16:48:10 shorton: still ambiguity - need more investigation 16:48:45 awk: then we should leave this open for now. 16:48:48 q? 16:49:05 awk: need a new technique 16:49:25 awk: looking ofor volunteers to work on this 16:49:43 shorton: volunteer to help 16:50:01 ACTION, Sarah Horton to look at new technique for disappearing background images. 16:50:04 awk: new technique for disappearing background images 16:50:07 ACTION: Sarah Horton to look at new technique for disappearing background images. 16:50:08 Created ACTION-318 - Horton to look at new technique for disappearing background images. [on Sarah Horton - due 2016-01-19]. 16:50:26 RESOLUTION: leave Issue 80 open 16:50:38 TOPIC: Issue 96 16:50:48 s/ACTION, Sarah Horton to look at new technique for disappearing background images.// 16:51:03 TOPIC: Issue 133 16:51:03 ISSUE 133? 16:51:33 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/133 16:52:07 awk: proposes referring to HTML5 instead of earlier versions 16:52:19 q+ 16:52:20 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/137/files?diff=split 16:52:39 awk: specific changes in github 16:53:04 john: there was work done on polygraph (?) html 16:53:29 q+ 16:53:35 john: we should reference "the most version of HTML5" and give a pointer 16:53:43 S/polygraph /POLYGOT 16:54:07 s/POLYGOT/polygot 16:54:19 shorton has joined #wai-wcag 16:54:26 ack me 16:55:04 michael5: is this a specific or general comment. specific technique 16:55:32 michaelc: would like consistent advice for all html techniques. we are mostly doing that anyways. 16:55:45 s/michael5/michaelc/ 16:56:53 s/(?)// 16:56:57 awk: agrees, but we should check the rest of the similar issues. doesn't want to leave things hanging until it's complete 16:57:42 katie: using html according to spec, then in cases where there are differences with other html version, we would identify that specifically 16:57:46 +1 16:58:36 +1 to JF & Katie 16:58:57 Current: At the time this technique was published, the appropriate versions of these technologies is HTML 5 and XHTML 1.0. HTML 5 is the latest mature version of HTML, which provides specific accessibility features and is widely supported by user agents. XHTML 1.0 provides many of the same features as HTML 5, but unlike HTML 5 it is not being currently maintained. 16:59:02 katie: we need common languages for all of these situations, except where the versioning makes a difference 16:59:19 can do it now... 16:59:33 awk: suggestions for changing language? 17:00:18 awk: proposal to make current version more general wrt versioning 17:00:48 michaelc: xhtml is at 1.1 17:01:14 q+ 17:01:41 ack w 17:01:48 How about this: The latest mature version of HTML is the best way to provide specific accessibility features that are widely supported by user agents. It is best to stay up to date with the latest version. 17:02:06 wayne: the xhtml is very important because of epubs groups that will be looking to wcag. the extensions have to be compatible with xhtml. 17:02:16 Use HTML/XHTML according to specification supported in your environment. 17:03:04 agree 17:03:07 awk: likes david's first sentence 17:04:00 JF: more than html 17:04:25 katie: but it is an html techique 17:04:57 suggest: The latest mature version of HTML (or related markup language) - ?? 17:05:12 awk: the goal of the technique is to say that if you use html according to spec, there is a benefit to doing so, e.g. addressing the parsing issue 17:05:45 awk: one option is to replace the entire paragraph with david's sentences or first sentence (with minor edit) 17:06:00 +1 to Davids first sentence 17:06:02 I can accept that friendly amendment 17:06:08 awk: timestamp 11:04 17:06:36 OK with me 17:06:42 awk: 12:04 in this thread - latest mature version of html 17:06:48 +1 yes 17:06:58 probably just the first 17:06:58 +1 simpler is best. 17:07:00 awk: asking which version people like 17:07:04 first sentence 17:07:07 One sentence. 17:07:10 david: probably just first sentence 17:07:11 +1 17:07:17 +1 17:07:19 +1 to one sentence 17:07:35 awk: proposes making that change and adding jon's to that 17:07:54 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/137/files#diff-45dae38117526e3ccc3cd4e65e061fe4 17:08:28 Q+ 17:08:42 awk: Split version in github in upper right is helpful 17:08:44 Ack ry 17:08:52 q+ 17:09:01 ack me 17:09:03 did you mean to remove XHTML from line 14 too? 17:10:13 awk: removing xhtml from line 14, too 17:10:25 ack me 17:10:26 awk: any concerns 17:10:51 I agree with Josh 17:10:57 joshue: don't understand what 'there are a few broad aspects' means. 17:11:14 q+ 17:11:14 awk: they are listed below it 17:11:37 q? 17:13:05 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/137/files#diff-45dae38117526e3ccc3cd4e65e061fe4 17:13:26 katie: would rather we vote and then she has a comment 17:13:53 +1 to edited version 17:14:00 +1 to edited version 17:14:01 awk: votes for proposed edits 17:14:09 +1 17:14:12 RESOLUTION: accepted as recommended 17:14:15 AWK will route for Cfc 17:14:30 q? 17:14:33 ack ryl 17:14:41 yup 17:14:53 yes 17:15:24 q+ 17:15:27 katie: in general, do we as a working group only consider only those 4 components for parsing? or, is parsing broader and needing more spec? 17:15:47 awk: please raise this on the list. 17:15:47 +1 to raising on list 17:15:50 ack 17:16:03 ack david_000 17:16:08 TOPIC: Issue 96 17:16:11 ach d 17:16:12 ack d 17:16:17 no 17:16:22 s/ach d/ 17:17:44 awk: kathy indicates that if images have multiple colors then all colors must meet contrast 3.1. 17:18:05 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/96 17:18:12 Q+ 17:18:13 kathy: images aren't meant to be read, but 3:1 color contrast ratio for icons, since they are usually bigger 17:18:37 q+ 17:18:55 kathy: usually does this based on size, since they are usually larger 17:19:52 awk: my take - right now graphical info that is not text is not currently covered. would be hard to defend a different position. 17:20:00 I think that UI contrast should be covered somehow. I usually shoot for a 4.5:1 ratio. 17:20:23 kathy: number of considerations, and does agree that it isn't currently under WCAG 17:20:47 laura: suggest referring to low vision task force 17:21:03 michaelc: there are multiple threads that need to be parsed out 17:21:43 q? 17:21:47 michaelc: don't want to confound issues. let's address them piece by piece to cover the whole problem, but not beyond. 17:21:55 ack jf 17:22:49 I think that when Kathy said "larger" she meant "large-scale" e.g. equivalent to 18pt+ 17:23:16 JF: wants to push back - icon is meant to be read. what are they usually bigger than? icons tend to be actionable, so just like text they would need to be contained inside a size threshold. 17:23:53 ack way 17:24:26 +1 to Wayne 17:24:31 wayne: we have icon fonts now, so the spec applies 17:24:36 q+ 17:24:36 q+ to ask about techniques for icon fonts 17:24:48 1.4.3 applies to any font including icon fonts as long as they are text characters 17:25:47 WCAG defines text as sequence of characters that can be programmatically determined, where the sequence is expressing something in human language 17:25:52 wayne: spec should change when technology changes and icon text is being used to talk now. 17:25:59 q+ to say requirements on the visual presentation of icons is one thing; requirements *because they are implemented as a font* is a different issue and is more for techniques 17:26:40 +1 17:27:12 ack Jn 17:27:17 I agree that icons don't fit the WCAG definition of text 17:27:29 q- 17:27:43 james: don't think we can apply icons specs the same as text 17:27:54 ack jo 17:27:54 Joshue, you wanted to ask about techniques for icon fonts 17:28:19 sry! 17:28:21 cant unmute 17:28:26 ack mi 17:28:39 +1 to making it a technique issue 17:28:50 michaelc: adds that icons font might be a techniques issue, but need to separate icons from the implementation 17:29:20 james: this could fall between the cracks, so has added an issue in github 17:29:47 joshue's comment (not james) 17:30:03 I think techniques for Icon fonts are needed. I've added an issue in Github 17:30:04 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/144 17:30:15 q? 17:30:42 bye 17:31:10 RESOLUTION: Leave open 17:31:28 trackbot, end of meeting 17:31:28 Sorry, Sarah_Swierenga, I don't understand 'trackbot, end of meeting'. Please refer to for help. 17:31:42 trackbot end meeting 17:31:42 Zakim, list attendees 17:31:42 As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Josh, wayne, jon_avila, JF, Sarah_Swierenga, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea, JamesNurthen, Laura, Mike, Elledge, Jan, Rakesh, Eric, 17:31:45 ... LisaS, Kathy, David_MacDonald, Joshue108 17:31:50 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:31:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot 17:31:51 RRSAgent, bye 17:31:51 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-wai-wcag-actions.rdf : 17:31:51 ACTION: Sarah Horton to look at new technique for disappearing background images. [1] 17:31:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T16-50-07