18:07:34 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:07:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/11-aria-apg-irc 18:07:41 Zakim has joined #aria-apg 18:08:19 present+ JemmaKu 18:08:22 present+ IanPouncey 18:08:50 present+ Michiel_Bijl, LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JemmaJaEunKu, CharuPandhi, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, IanPouncey 18:08:56 Agenda+ review updated radio group example 18:08:58 Agenda+ Review menu example 18:08:59 Agenda+ Discuss example development work in progress 18:09:01 Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status 18:09:02 Agenda+ Review text of section 2.32 Tool Bar http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar 18:09:23 rrsagent, make minutesz 18:09:23 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesz', jamesn. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:09:25 rrsagent, make minutes 18:09:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/11-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn 18:09:38 q? 18:09:41 agenda? 18:09:59 bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg 18:10:28 present+ Bryan_Garaventa 18:10:45 Meeting: ARIA APG TF 18:13:41 scribe: JF 18:14:01 zakim, first item 18:14:01 I don't understand 'first item', JF 18:14:31 zakim, take up first item 18:14:31 I don't understand 'take up first item', JF 18:14:32 Birkir has joined #aria-apg 18:14:55 zakim, take up item 1 18:14:55 agendum 1. "review updated radio group example" taken up [from mck] 18:15:42 mck: looking for changes to the radio group example 18:16:06 jemma: jong has an example, but would like another week to produce something 18:16:26 jong: we've looked at this, and ther was no further comments 18:17:03 MB: we've looked at this 18:17:12 mck: so we can call this one complete 18:17:23 zakim, take up item 2 18:17:23 agendum 2. "Review menu example" taken up [from mck] 18:17:36 https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/menu-button/menu-button-1.html 18:18:13 JG: two examples here, lacks metadata 18:18:29 first example is a link, the second example uses the button element 18:18:43 the menu button is also a link, it takes you to another page 18:19:32 LJWatson has joined #aria-apg 18:19:32 mck: menu items should be decendants of men 18:19:41 but not sure why a menu would be a descendant of the button 18:20:11 BG: spec notes that any child roles of button are automatically presentational, so youshould not put other roles inside of a button 18:20:26 mck: right, so why would you have menu items controlled by the button? 18:21:34 LJWatson has left #aria-apg 18:22:23 mck: first example seems unusual - not sure what is happening here 18:22:38 JG: if you hit enter or down/up, it should open the menu 18:22:52 q+ 18:23:36 mck: you can't overload menu buttons to be both a link and a button - not supported by ARIA 18:24:39 LJWatson has joined #aria-apg 18:25:17 JN: have had UI requests like this before - hae provided hint text to advise to use the down button 18:25:29 mck: but it still acts like a link 18:25:39 JN: which is why we provide the hint text 18:26:20 Values of aria-haspopupValue Description 18:26:20 true: Indicates the object has a popup, either as a descendant or pointed to by aria-owns. 18:26:20 false (default): The object has no popup. 18:26:21 JN: want to return to ownership: when using aria-haspopup it needs to belong to something 18:27:06 jg: so aria-controls should be aria-owned? 18:27:11 www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/ 18:27:12 {yes} 18:27:58 Indicates the object has a popup, either as a descendant or referenced by aria-owns. 18:29:14 contradicts descendants are presentational only 18:29:29 s/contradicts descendants are presentational only/BG: contradicts descendants are presentational only 18:32:50 mck: if you add haspopup to button, it changes the role 18:33:13 might need to raise an issue against 1.1 spec 18:35:36 ISSUE aria-haspopup should use aria-controls instead of aria-owns for its relationship mechanism 18:35:41 Q+ to ask if we need to file this with the ARIA WG? 18:36:01 ISSUE: aria-haspopup should use aria-controls instead of aria-owns for its relationship mechanism 18:36:01 Created ISSUE-1001 - Aria-haspopup should use aria-controls instead of aria-owns for its relationship mechanism. Please complete additional details at . 18:36:39 ACK ME 18:36:44 ack me 18:37:37 BG: need to also mention that the issue about 'presentation' is relevant, and is a problem elsewhere as well 18:38:06 there are other items as well that need to have the same presentation issue 18:38:18 mck: slightly off-topic, but you can raise that as an issue as well 18:38:27 ack me 18:38:27 JF, you wanted to ask if we need to file this with the ARIA WG? 18:38:45 mck: every button I've encountered hasn't required aria-owned 18:38:53 so this isn't an issue (is it?) 18:40:03 mck: there isn't anything that says you must do something when popup is present, but does it even matter? 18:40:41 do we need to add controls when the popup pops up? 18:40:49 BG: don't think so , doesn't do anything 18:41:14 mck: perhaps the issue is that aria-popup doeesn't require a relationship (?) 18:41:51 cpandhi: if the popup has menu items, how will they be related to the menu button? 18:42:03 mck: that's the question: what is the advantage of having a relationship? 18:42:58 JG: there is aria-[something] - have a note to add aria-owns 18:43:40 s/aria-[something]/aria-controls 18:44:06 JG: need to do this because there are multiple menus in the document, need it to differentiate 18:45:33 the question is... that we ask for the 1.1 spec to state that aria-owns not be required. change it to aria-controls and make it optional 18:46:24 "...optionally referenced by aria-controls" 18:47:19 ACTION: mck to take Action 1001 and follow-through 18:47:19 Error finding 'mck'. You can review and register nicknames at . 18:48:04 ACTION: Matt King to take Issue 1001 and follow through 18:48:04 'Matt' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., mgarrish, mking3). 18:49:55 zakim, ACTION 2 is for mattking 18:49:55 I don't understand 'ACTION 2 is for mattking', JF 18:50:34 zakim, ACTION 2 is for mk 18:50:34 I don't understand 'ACTION 2 is for mk', annabbott 18:50:47 Sorry, JF, I tried... 18:51:02 zakim, ACTION 2 is for mattking 18:51:02 I don't understand 'ACTION 2 is for mattking', JF 18:51:20 zakim, ACTION2 is for mck 18:51:20 I don't understand 'ACTION2 is for mck', annabbott 18:51:26 drats! 18:53:09 ACTION: mattking to own Issue 1001 and will follow up with ARIA WG 18:53:09 Created ACTION-2002 - Own issue 1001 and will follow up with aria wg [on Matthew King - due 2016-01-18]. 18:53:43 present +mattking 18:58:34 mck: spec does not have a normative statement that states authors must not include an HREF attribute on an anchor that has both role of button and aria-haspopup=true 18:58:42 spec is not that specific 18:59:06 you need to extrappolate to arrive at the conclusion that a conformance checker should do that 19:00:01 JF: agree that this is p[art of the authoring guide, does the spec need to be more explicit? 19:00:15 JG: are there other comments on this example? 19:00:32 mck: seems that this is such a common issue that perhaps the example should address it head-on 19:01:18 the best way is to say that if you have a link, that when you hover it shows a menu - best practice is that clicking the link - focus goes to first item in the menu (text) 19:03:29 LJWatson has joined #aria-apg 19:03:31 so menu appears on hover and onfocus, but requires the trigger function to activate the menu 19:03:45 and enter sets the focus on the first item in the menu 19:04:35 AA: don't think the example works that way 19:04:51 mck: it doesn't... that is why we are asking about this as a best practice advise 19:05:05 BG: some people have filed this as a scripting error in the past 19:05:50 BG: asking about status of aria-help - it would be handy in a situation like this 19:06:07 mck: unsure of status 19:06:42 for now... let's do the simple fix: there is no href there, it just opens the menu 19:06:57 cp: how would you change this? 19:07:22 mck: just take the href off of the link - make the very first item in the menu - make it go to that 19:07:51 s/cp: how would you change this?/jemma: how would you change this? 19:08:36 IP: an anchor element without href isn't keyboard-focusable 19:08:50 AA; even with role=button? 19:09:07 IP: correct - this could be done with a span as well 19:09:20 JG: authors love anchor elements - this is a real world problem 19:09:37 IP: but this isn't a Best Practice - we should be teaching the Best Way 19:09:53 we can show the meaningless way as well, but wonder of the value 19:10:19 JG: we should use an exanple that shows this, and explain why it is either good or bad... 19:10:53 mck: we agreed early on not to show example of sub-optimal solutions 19:11:12 IP: if we start down that road, we will have a ton of examples that will need to be shown, not just here 19:12:50 I need to leave for another meeting, talk to you in two weeks 19:13:55 discussion around making things focusable with "less optimal" ways 19:14:02 and how we document that 19:14:26 mck: if we determine there are many sub-optimal solutions, we could document that elsewhere and then link... 19:15:58 we could use