19:01:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wpay-ecom
19:01:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/21-wpay-ecom-irc
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19:01:52 <dezell> present+ linda
19:01:55 <collier-matthew> present+ MattC
19:01:57 <dezell> present+ brian
19:02:01 <dezell> present+ matt
19:02:06 <dezell> present+ richard
19:02:11 <dezell> present+
19:02:30 <dezell> present+ jenny
19:02:34 <dezell> present+ shane
19:02:39 <dezell> present+ mattH
19:02:52 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #wpay-ecom
19:02:56 <collier-matthew> s/present+ matt//
19:03:00 <dlongley> present+ dlongley
19:03:00 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
19:03:03 <dezell> present+ adrian
19:03:10 <collier-matthew> s/present+ shane//
19:04:10 <dezell> present+ steven
19:05:36 <brussell> brussell has joined #wpay-ecom
19:06:09 <collier-matthew> scribenick: collier-matthew
19:06:59 <collier-matthew> dezell: Any questions before introductions?
19:07:02 <AdrianHB> AdrianHB has joined #wpay-ecom
19:07:10 <jheuer> jheuer has joined #wpay-ecom
19:07:41 <dezell> https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/ProposalsQ42015/Ecommerce
19:08:20 <collier-matthew> dezell: I represent NACS, and am co-chair of the WPIG
19:08:29 <collier-matthew> LindaToth: I am with Conexxus
19:09:07 <collier-matthew> brian: I've been in payments for 15 years.
19:09:27 <AdrianHB> Present+ AdrianHB
19:09:32 <collier-matthew> mattH: Walmart: manage global acceptance.  Representing MAG
19:09:54 <ed_c> ed_c has joined #wpay-ecom
19:10:04 <collier-matthew> Jenny: CIO for Flash...  20 years in the industry.  We have a mobile app and we would like to enhance that.
19:10:27 <collier-matthew> ShaneM: with DigitalBazaar, trying to keep coordinated with other W3C groups.
19:10:52 <collier-matthew> AdrianHB: Standards officer at Ripple, background in card payments.  I am the co-chair of web payments working group.
19:11:20 <collier-matthew> Steven: In charge of R&D for Enmar Digital promotions.
19:11:45 <collier-matthew> Richard: Architect for ...
19:11:56 <dezell> present+ edcollupy
19:12:09 <collier-matthew> dlongley: Work with DigitalBazaar, I've worked on a number of standards in the past.
19:12:37 <manu> manu has joined #wpay-ecom
19:13:03 <dezell> present+ manu
19:13:04 <collier-matthew> edCollupy: member of Conexxus
19:13:22 <collier-matthew> Kristi from Target in payment acceptance.
19:13:26 <dezell> present+ Kristy
19:13:27 <dlehn> dlehn has joined #wpay-ecom
19:13:38 <collier-matthew> s/Kristi/Kristy
19:13:39 <manu> Present+ Manu
19:13:50 <dezell> present + jheuer
19:13:59 <dlehn> Present+ dlehn
19:14:00 <dezell> present+ jheuer
19:14:09 <collier-matthew> jheuer: DTelecom R&D Unit, working with business unit for payments from operator perspective.
19:14:14 <dezell> present+ gtaylor
19:14:26 <collier-matthew> GTaylor, With Conexxus
19:14:40 <collier-matthew> dlehn: Work with DigitalBazaar
19:14:48 <dezell> present+ manu
19:15:22 <collier-matthew> manu: Work with DigitalBazaar, we've been working with payments and credentials space for a while.  Trying to get the ball rolling on improving the payment experience on the internet.
19:15:45 <collier-matthew> dezell: Thank you all for being here.
19:16:18 <collier-matthew> dezell: I would like to talk about the problem we need to solve, then background and use cases
19:16:37 <collier-matthew> ... also talk about way to get the right people to the table.
19:16:47 <collier-matthew> ... two years ago in Paris, we had a workshop on payments.
19:17:05 <collier-matthew> ... there was a lot of excitement.  There was one presentation from merchants.
19:17:08 <manu> which was a fantastic presentation from merchants at the Web Payments Workshop!
19:17:49 <collier-matthew> ... standards are the focus.  There are many proprietary ways of doing things.
19:18:11 <dezell> https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/ProposalsQ42015/Ecommerce
19:19:13 <collier-matthew> ... looking under item 3, ecommerce proposal
19:19:38 <collier-matthew> ... this is about creating a task force on how to get merchants more involved in the standards process.
19:19:52 <collier-matthew> ...  One next step would be to approve this document.
19:20:18 <collier-matthew> ... We might do a straw poll at the beginning of next year.
19:20:41 <manu> q+ to note problem statement and "digital offers", "receipts", "coupons", and multiple payment instruments per transaction.
19:20:51 <collier-matthew> ... In the course of implement web payments, merchants want to stay in the loop and make sure their interests are represented.
19:21:01 <collier-matthew> ... I have broken the situation into two halves.
19:21:15 <Erik> Erik has joined #wpay-ecom
19:21:19 <collier-matthew> ... first half, we can provide to the web payments working group use cases.
19:21:35 <collier-matthew> ... also gather necessary players for requirements and recommendations.
19:21:36 <dezell> ack manu
19:21:36 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note problem statement and "digital offers", "receipts", "coupons", and multiple payment instruments per transaction.
19:21:56 <collier-matthew> manu: I have read through the proposal and noticed that there a couple things missing.
19:22:02 <jheuer> q+ to talk about whether convergent scenarios are also in scope?
19:22:04 <collier-matthew> ... I did not see anything about digital offers.
19:22:37 <collier-matthew> ... for example make it easier for consumers to make digital offers easier to find and use.
19:23:04 <collier-matthew> ... No uses cases yet for digital offers.  The other thing is that there's nothing about digital receipts.
19:23:45 <collier-matthew> ... Digital Bazaar has some ideas about this, but it it's important that the this group indicates that it's important if that's the case.
19:24:04 <collier-matthew> ...  I'm concerned about multiple payment instruments per purchase.
19:24:18 <collier-matthew> ...  We want to make sure that Phase I allows us to do that.
19:24:37 <collier-matthew> ... over the past 4+ years, we have proposals about digital offers, receipts and coupons.
19:24:50 <collier-matthew> ... we have not had the opportunity to present those to the WPIG
19:25:12 <collier-matthew> dezell: Manu is talking about phase I, which is what the wpay workgroup is doing now.
19:25:35 <collier-matthew> ... this is a straight forward payments scenario.  It might be *too* simple.
19:25:44 <collier-matthew> ... which is why we should review the use cases.
19:25:49 <AdrianHB> q?
19:26:32 <collier-matthew> Erik Anderson from Bloomberg, co-chair with dezell, interested in the future of payments.
19:27:01 <dezell> ack jh
19:27:01 <Zakim> jheuer, you wanted to talk about whether convergent scenarios are also in scope?
19:27:41 <collier-matthew> Kristy: in the goals... we should make payment instruments more broad, including EBT and SNAP
19:28:00 <collier-matthew> ed_c: I agree, I was thinking about fleet cards and college payment cards
19:28:17 <collier-matthew> dezell: Let's not forget NACS payroll cards.
19:28:18 <ShaneM> q+ to say dont forget things like points too!
19:28:38 <collier-matthew> jheuer: I want to ask if we want to keep focus on online payments only.
19:29:01 <manu> q+ to say "we are payment instrument agnostic", and would like to ask for a "would like to have" list and a priority list.
19:29:06 <Gray> Gray has joined #wpay-ecom
19:29:47 <collier-matthew> ... Or should we also be talking about proximity systems as well.
19:30:15 <ShaneM> q- ShaneM
19:30:15 <dezell> ack ShaneM
19:31:14 <dezell> ack manu
19:31:14 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to say "we are payment instrument agnostic", and would like to ask for a "would like to have" list and a priority list.
19:31:18 <collier-matthew> dezell: We want to figure out if we have enough interested and people power to keep this going.
19:31:57 <collier-matthew> manu: for the retailers that have not been involved in week-to-week meetings.  We are payment method agnostic in our approach.
19:32:35 <collier-matthew> ... I want to make sure everyone understands that we are not preferring one payment method over another.  But we do have an issue where we are not allowing for multiple payment methods in Phase One.
19:33:03 <AdrianHB> AdrianHB has joined #wpay-ecom
19:33:12 <collier-matthew> ... what about offer, digital receipts, and coupons.  I would be good to know if merchants/retailers are interested in these things.
19:33:12 <Erik> Manu, split payments between 2 different instruments should be required.
19:33:13 <Gray> q+
19:33:20 <AdrianHB> q?
19:33:37 <collier-matthew> ... the working group needs to know what they should be focusing on in the various phases of their work, (I, II ,III)
19:33:39 <dezell> ack Gray
19:33:42 <richard> Q+
19:34:21 <collier-matthew> Gray: To manu's point.  There's a large cognitive load for consumers to use mobile payments.  We should be agnostic of payment type.
19:35:08 <collier-matthew> ... there may be a need to handle different data.  Multiple payments within one transaction along for digital promotions is *very* important.
19:35:33 <collier-matthew> ... incorporating coupons into the transaction needs to be in Phase I
19:35:35 <manu> q+ Kristie
19:35:43 <dezell> ack ri
19:35:50 <AdrianHB> q+ to find out how merchants would like to see this materialise (coupons, loyalty etc)
19:36:09 <collier-matthew> richard: Are you talking about interface between gateway/aquirer?  Which interface are we talking about?
19:36:43 <collier-matthew> dezell: Our charter calls out the consumer and merchant as stakeholders.
19:36:59 <collier-matthew> ... it is the way the consumer talks to the merchant that we are working on.
19:37:12 <collier-matthew> ... we are trying to align with ISO20022.
19:38:06 <collier-matthew> ... in our case, it's not merchants/aquirers, but we are interested in riding existing rails when possible.
19:38:19 <collier-matthew> richard: you're referring to retailers?
19:38:19 <dezell> ack Kristie
19:38:22 <collier-matthew> dezell: yes
19:38:50 <dezell> ack Adrian
19:38:50 <Zakim> AdrianHB, you wanted to find out how merchants would like to see this materialise (coupons, loyalty etc)
19:38:53 <collier-matthew> Kristy, I agree with Gray.  We should have multiple payment instruments within a single transaction.  Often we have gift cards.
19:39:24 <AdrianHB> My line is poor
19:40:15 <collier-matthew> AdrianHB: the work we're doing in the WG is to connect the retailer and the user (payer/payee)
19:40:24 <manu> q+ to note that we may have a different set of deliverables - the first one being shaking the Web Payments WG and let them know that they may be blind to the pay w/ multi-payment instrument use case.
19:40:27 <collier-matthew> ... today payments are high friction and relatively insecure.
19:40:48 <collier-matthew> ... we are trying to standardize communication between those two that allows for more complex messages.
19:41:16 <collier-matthew> ...  the exchange of data could be complex encrypted data.  We need to deal with payment methods of today as well as payment methods of the future.
19:41:45 <collier-matthew> ... wrt multi-tender...
19:42:35 <dezell> ack manu
19:42:35 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note that we may have a different set of deliverables - the first one being shaking the Web Payments WG and let them know that they may be blind to the pay w/
19:42:38 <Zakim> ... multi-payment instrument use case.
19:43:06 <AdrianHB> TL;DR: It will help us a great deal if this group get's up to speed on the direction the WG is currently going so that it's easier to relate the group's requirements to what is currently being proposed
19:43:14 <collier-matthew> manu: The higher priority thing might be to make sure that the WG pays attention to retailers needs in Phase One.
19:43:34 <collier-matthew> manu: There is no multi-tender proposal in place.
19:43:53 <collier-matthew> ... there's a disconnect between what WG is working on and what retailer want.
19:44:15 <dezell> q?
19:44:19 <AdrianHB> e.g. Multi-tender, sharing customer data etc are possible but maybe in a way that merchnats won't be happy with
19:44:20 <dezell> zakim, close the queue
19:44:20 <Zakim> ok, dezell, the speaker queue is closed
19:44:33 <collier-matthew> ... also we need to get other use cases into the mix as well, like couplons/offers.
19:44:46 <collier-matthew> dezell: I think we got some good points out of that discusssion.
19:44:53 <dezell> zakim, open the queue
19:44:53 <Zakim> ok, dezell, the speaker queue is open
19:45:20 <collier-matthew> ...  I would like to spend the balance of the call talking about how we might make progress on getting a marker down for the working group.
19:45:30 <collier-matthew> ...  One avenue may be use cases.
19:45:47 <AdrianHB> my concern is that if I tell this group: "You can handle multi-tender by developing a custom payment method" it will be helpful if this group understands what "develop a custom payment method" means
19:45:52 <collier-matthew> ... are people here willing to help on creating a workshop on creating a browser interface for payments on the web.
19:46:14 <collier-matthew> ... we would like all of this to be easy and standardized.
19:46:40 <ShaneM> It should be easy to do WITHIN a useragent and WITHIN an application that just wants to accept payments (e.g., a mobile app)
19:46:51 <dezell> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html
19:47:17 <AdrianHB> another concern is that some merchant requirements (know the customer) conflict with user requirements (privacy)
19:47:51 <collier-matthew> dezell: What is in the use cases... which can be found in the table of contents.
19:48:03 <manu> +1 to what everything AdrianHB is saying - very important stuff.
19:48:23 <manu> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#an-overview-of-the-payment-phases
19:48:31 <collier-matthew> Section 7 has actual scenarios.
19:49:06 <collier-matthew> dezell: as we create these payments cases, and think about them in phases, we can determine what is necessary to support that.
19:49:21 <collier-matthew> Section 6 defines each of the necessary steps.
19:49:35 <AdrianHB> final concern is that if we are too explicit with standards we make it very difficult for anyone to innovate. We need to find a balance in all these things and where that balance is found is influenced by the perspective of the participants. If we don't have a wide merchant participation then the balance will tend away from the merchant's requirements...
19:49:59 <dlongley> +1 to Adrian's comments as well.
19:50:06 <manu> q+ to point out the points Adrian is making in IRC.
19:50:22 <collier-matthew> ... discovery offer is not about digital offers, but how a consumer might collaborate with a merchant and negotiate payment terms.
19:50:40 <collier-matthew> ... please review over the next few weeks.  I will be circulating use cases that follow this model.
19:50:51 <collier-matthew> ... I want to show this model to reduce confusion.
19:51:01 <collier-matthew> ... please point out anything that could be improved.
19:51:04 <dezell> ack manu
19:51:04 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to point out the points Adrian is making in IRC.
19:51:14 <collier-matthew> manu: I would like to point out some of what AdrianHB has been typing in IRC
19:51:34 <collier-matthew> ... he say... we're looking for the right balance wrt to privacy.
19:52:13 <collier-matthew> ... to-date, we have not had good engagement with retailers.  When that happens, retailers groups might not get met.
19:52:38 <collier-matthew> ... we need clear use cases to inform the work.
19:52:58 <collier-matthew> ... It helps those doing the work prioritize the work.
19:53:20 <AdrianHB> A big concern for the WG is developing standards that will be deployed. If we don't have sufficient engagement during the work that is a big risk
19:53:39 <dezell> q?
19:53:40 <collier-matthew> ... Please do give attention to the use cases and make your support known.
19:54:07 <dezell> 1. propose a task force to investigate this topic.
19:54:08 <dezell> 2. adopt deliverables for the task force:
19:54:08 <dezell>    a) use cases revision
19:54:08 <dezell>    b) possible WG
19:54:09 <dezell>    c) workshop creation
19:54:18 <Gray> Agree with Adrian & Manu, we need to block diagram such uses of multi-tender.  Also, we cannot forget that the "pull" style of current payments (where merchant pulls payment credentials) is not where market is going.  THink how do I, as a consumer, PUSH adequate information that the merchant is comfortable that settlement will occur
19:55:14 <manu> +1 to Gray - very little focus on push payments now in the Web Payments WG (we support it, but PSPs are putting more of a focus on pull these days w/ no counterbalance from retailers for push)
19:55:15 <collier-matthew> dezell: We might want to create a task-force.
19:55:44 <AdrianHB> Please all have a look at some of the content on the WG wiki already and feel free to reach out to me if you need some info
19:55:45 <AdrianHB> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/A-Payments-Initiation-Architecture-for-the-Web
19:56:04 <collier-matthew> ... if we create a task-force, we could revise the use cases and get the retailers requirements in the hands of the working group.
19:56:21 <collier-matthew> ... also we might create a working group focused on retailer issues.
19:56:41 <collier-matthew> ... what we might do is have a workshop
19:56:52 <AdrianHB> Our work documenting the flows in use today (that we want to support) is also important: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Flows
19:57:11 <collier-matthew> ... there's a lot of working going on in various organizations.  We have a unique relationship with web developers here at the W3C.
19:57:22 <Gray> +1 to Manu - agree, we keep trying to solve for the ISO/CVV world, when this will be tokenized and pushed.
19:57:29 <collier-matthew> ... accessibility is an important issue at W3C.
19:58:11 <AdrianHB> Also have a look at some of the proposals being considered by the WG:
19:58:18 <AdrianHB>     https://github.com/WICG/web-payments-browser-api
19:58:18 <AdrianHB>     https://github.com/WICG/paymentrequest
19:58:19 <AdrianHB>     https://github.com/web-payments/web-payments-messaging/
19:58:19 <AdrianHB>     https://github.com/web-payments/web-payments-http-api
19:58:19 <dlongley> +1 to Gray - "pushing" payment credentials that the merchant doesn't need to see is the future, but certain "pull" operations may continue to exist for other types of "credentials" merchants do need to see
19:58:36 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
19:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/21-wpay-ecom-minutes.html ShaneM
19:58:54 <manu> q+ to note that when we try to talk about 'push' the response is: "but that's not how 95% of payments happen today".
19:58:58 <Erik> q+
19:59:03 <collier-matthew> Gray: I see a huge difference between push/pull payments.  Push payments should be considered in the retailer space.
19:59:24 <dezell> q+
19:59:29 <dezell> ack manu
19:59:29 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note that when we try to talk about 'push' the response is: "but that's not how 95% of payments happen today".
19:59:31 <collier-matthew> Gray: I believe the future is in push payments.
19:59:57 <AdrianHB> +1 to support for push (as Erik said earlier, we need to support the future) but we also need to support the present to get adoption
20:00:28 <dezell> zakim, close the queue
20:00:28 <Zakim> ok, dezell, the speaker queue is closed
20:00:45 <dezell> ack Erik
20:00:56 <collier-matthew> manu: I think there's a huge desire for push payments.  Hearing that push payments is important to retailers is an important message to the working group.
20:01:59 <collier-matthew> Erik: Tokenization of ALL payment data is important, we need to hear that from retailers as well.
20:02:40 <Gray> Agree Erik - all PII should be vailed of tokenization
20:02:57 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes public
20:02:57 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ShaneM.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:03:12 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public
20:03:13 <manu> rrsagent, make minuts
20:03:13 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', manu.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:03:16 <manu> rrsagent, make minutes
20:03:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/21-wpay-ecom-minutes.html manu
20:03:48 <collier-matthew> dezell: I will be looking for additional retailer when I am at the NRF show.
20:03:56 <AdrianHB> thanks all
20:05:56 <collier-matthew> There is a MAG meeting in February.
20:06:19 <collier-matthew> which is another opportunity to collect feedback from people in the industry.
20:18:41 <dezell> chair: dezell
20:19:32 <dezell> Meeting: Proposal for eCommerce Task Force
20:22:58 <dezell> Present: Linda Toth (Conexxus), Matthew Collier (Digital Bazaar), Brian Russell (Verifone), Richard Halter (ARTS), Jenny Bullard (Flash Foods), David Longley (Digital Bazaar), Shane McCarron (Digital Bazaar), Adrian Hope-Bailie (Ripple), Ed Collupy (W. Capra Consulting), Manu Sporney (Digital Bazaar), Kristy Cook (Target), Joerg Heuer (Deutche Telekom), David Lehn (Digital Bazaar), Gray Taylor (Conexxus), David Ezell (NACS), Erik Anderson (Bloomberg)
20:23:08 <dezell> rrsagent, make minutes
20:23:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/21-wpay-ecom-minutes.html dezell
20:24:33 <dezell> rrsagent, make logs public
20:33:16 <dezell> rrsagent, bye
20:33:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items