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13:49:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 351
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13:49:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DWBP
13:49:38 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:49:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:49:39 <trackbot> Date: 18 December 2015
13:58:46 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:00:15 <phila> hi
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14:02:14 <deirdrelee> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20151218
14:02:35 <deirdrelee> chair: deirdrelee
14:03:23 <ericstephan> present+ ericstephan
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14:03:32 <deirdrelee> present+ deirdrelee
14:03:36 <phila> present+ phila
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14:06:21 <Caroline_> we will be in the webex
14:06:50 <hadleybeeman> zakim, who is here?
14:06:50 <Zakim> Present: ericstephan, deirdrelee, phila
14:06:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see annette_g, yaso, riccardoAlbertoni, EricKauz, antoine, Caroline_, ericstephan, phila, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, hadleybeeman, trackbot
14:06:58 <EricKauz> present+ EricKauz
14:06:59 <hadleybeeman> present+ hadleybeeman
14:07:15 <newtoncalegari> newtoncalegari has joined #dwbp
14:07:21 <phila> scribe: phila
14:07:28 <phila> scribenick: phila
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14:07:45 <phila> Topic: Preliminaries
14:07:55 <BernadetteLoscio> BernadetteLoscio has joined #dwbp
14:08:02 <phila> PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2015/12/11-dwbp-minutes
14:08:17 <hadleybeeman> +0 (wasn't here)
14:08:17 <ericstephan> +1
14:08:23 <yaso> +1
14:08:32 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
14:08:32 <antoine> +0 (wasn't here)
14:08:35 <phila> +1
14:08:40 <deirdrelee> sc0
14:08:45 <ericstephan> Great turn out this week...wow
14:08:46 <phila> Last week approved 2 publications
14:08:50 <EricKauz> +1
14:08:53 <phila> RESOLUTION: Accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2015/12/11-dwbp-minutes
14:08:55 <BernadetteLoscio> +1
14:08:58 <newtoncalegari> +1
14:09:08 <Caroline_> +1
14:09:12 <Caroline_> Present+ Caroline_
14:09:15 <laufer> present+ laufer
14:09:25 <laufer> +1
14:09:26 <antoine> present+ antoine
14:09:35 <BernadetteLoscio> present+ BernadetteLoscio
14:09:38 <phila> 2 new publications yesterday
14:09:38 <phila> http://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/
14:09:40 <deirdrelee> Topic: BP & DQV update
14:09:45 <phila> http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dqv/
14:09:54 <hadleybeeman> phila: we have two new publications from last week
14:10:14 <hadleybeeman> ...On this occasion, the editors (Newton and Riccardo especially) put a lot of effort into getting them ready to publish
14:10:16 <BernadetteLoscio> hello!!!
14:10:19 <ericstephan> yeah for publishing!
14:10:22 <hadleybeeman> ...They did thinks like link checking and validation and spell checking
14:10:42 <hadleybeeman> ...It still took me a lot of time to get them ready for publication, but less than usual
14:10:43 <phila> -> http://www.w3.org/blog/data/ Data Activity Blog
14:10:54 <hadleybeeman> ...Yesterday was a busy day for Data Activity.
14:11:05 <hadleybeeman> ...The Spatial Data on the Web updated their Use Case doc.
14:11:12 <hadleybeeman> ...They're close to updating their BPs
14:11:21 <hadleybeeman> ...Also, CSV on the Web became a recommendation
14:11:30 <hadleybeeman> ...They're still writing a primer, but they've finished their substantive work
14:11:34 <hadleybeeman> ...So it was a good day
14:11:43 <deirdrelee> q?
14:11:52 <hadleybeeman> ...Eric is very close to publishing the DUV
14:12:03 <hadleybeeman> ...Big thank you to everyone involved in those documents.
14:12:20 <hadleybeeman> deirdrelee: So, dissemination? How can we help?
14:12:28 <ericstephan> yes congrats Phil!  Great efforts
14:12:30 <hadleybeeman> phila: I did the blog post above, so we can find all these things
14:12:44 <hadleybeeman> ...There are several examples in the BP doc where we refer to the CSV on the Web stuff.
14:12:56 <hadleybeeman> ...It also refers to both of the vocabs we are working on
14:13:06 <hadleybeeman> ...Generally speaking, our work here is about improving the ecosystem for sharing data online
14:13:11 <hadleybeeman> ...These are all parts of it.
14:13:19 <deirdrelee> q?
14:13:24 <hadleybeeman> ...So, please: the usual blogs and tweets. But more importantly, using it!
14:13:36 <hadleybeeman> hadleybeeman: Big congratulations!
14:13:43 <newtoncalegari> present+ newtoncalegari
14:13:45 <hadleybeeman> deirdrelee: Do the editors want to say anything?
14:13:56 <riccardoAlbertoni> no really, just thanks all
14:14:00 <deirdrelee> Topic: Data usage Vocabulary
14:14:04 <ericstephan> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-du.html
14:14:05 <BernadetteLoscio> yes! thanks all!
14:14:05 <phila> Topic: dataset usage Vocabulary
14:14:33 <phila> -> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-du.html The DUV
14:15:00 <phila> ericstephan: I felt last week that we had a doc that needed work but that we had good comments that helped Berndette, Sumit and I to make progress
14:15:25 <phila> ... I now feel comfortable putting it in front of people seeking wide review
14:15:38 <BernadetteLoscio> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-du.html
14:15:45 <ericstephan> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-du.html#Vocab_Overview
14:15:51 <phila> ... One of the things that we did was to add to the vocab overview section, we added 3 subsections
14:16:03 <phila> ericstephan: What's misisng is links throughout the doc to make it more intuitive
14:16:21 <phila> ... Everyone commented last week, it's important to call out which classes and properties are relevant to that
14:16:45 <phila> ... the other thing we did was to go through and make sure that we were reusing vocabularies
14:16:47 <deirdrelee> q?
14:16:56 <phila> ... That was a good exercise in following BP on reusing vocabs
14:17:19 <ericstephan> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-du.html#relationship_vocabularies
14:17:28 <phila> ... In addtion to the improvements to the model, in section 5 I added some links to what we were motivated by
14:17:55 <phila> ... My concern about bringing this to the citation community was... I'm keen to see if there are better directions for us to follow.
14:18:04 <phila> ... We should be sensitive to open data efforts
14:18:15 <phila> .. Some of those links are to things universities are doing
14:18:31 <phila> BernadetteLoscio?
14:18:37 <BernadetteLoscio> its ok!
14:18:52 <BernadetteLoscio> please continue...
14:19:25 <phila> ericstephan: Thanks riccardoAlbertoni for sharing his recommendation
14:19:41 <phila> ... using multiple classes in the doc can be confusing - anyone got better visual suggestions?
14:19:42 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
14:19:55 <deirdrelee> ack BernadetteLoscio
14:19:56 <phila> ericstephan: We were able to squeeze everything into the model
14:20:25 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: Thanks Eric for the report - I think you said everything. We still have sime improvements to make.
14:20:25 <ericstephan> Berna and I did a lot while balancing time zones!
14:20:35 <phila> ... We had some nice comments from the group and we're going in a good direction.
14:20:54 <phila> ericstephan: We were balanced between the 5 hour time difference with out schedule - which was an added challenge
14:20:59 <laufer> q+
14:21:14 <phila> deirdrelee: So we still have 40 mins for this call - would it be helpful to go thrpough specific issues?
14:21:17 <phila> ack laufer
14:21:58 <phila> laufer: We'll still have the domain definitions in the doc of other vocabularies, i.e. we seem to be defining properties for otehr vocabularies? I don't agree with this
14:23:21 <deirdrelee> laufer: in the diagram, there are some arrows that have two ends, I don't like this
14:23:27 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
14:23:30 <phila> laufer: (Some missed) - but Laufer is saying that he doesn't like defining domains and ranges for other vocabs
14:23:44 <phila> ... and some arrows are bidirectional which I don't like
14:23:47 <deirdrelee> ... it gives the impression one concept is inverse of the other and this isn't the case
14:23:52 <BernadetteLoscio> q-
14:24:09 <phila> ericstephan: In terms of the double arrow - that was our call - making the presentation more readable
14:24:11 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
14:24:17 <phila> ... It reduces the number of arrows
14:24:19 <antoine> I agree with laufer about the point on double arrows
14:24:39 <phila> ericstephan: I thought we had taken out D&Rs on otehr vocabs
14:25:14 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: If we look at DCAT, they have domain and range restrictions on properties. They don't specify domain.
14:25:16 <BernadetteLoscio> http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dcat/
14:25:39 <deirdrelee> q?
14:25:42 <deirdrelee> ack BernadetteLoscio
14:25:56 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: In section 5.1 they define class:Catalog and they give the range of dcterms
14:26:29 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: We're not re-specifying the classes and properties, we're just following DCAT
14:26:45 <phila> ... And the double arrows, they're inverse properties
14:26:50 <phila> laufer: No, hang on
14:27:10 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: One that is inverse is oa:hasTarget...
14:27:28 <phila> ... We have only 3 double arrows in the diagram.
14:27:46 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: oa:hasTarget and duv:gasUserFeedback are not inverse
14:27:57 <phila> ... I agree with you laufer but the otehr two are
14:28:18 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: We had separate arrows in the diagram but it was too crowded so we used double arrows
14:28:19 <phila> q+
14:28:30 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: I don't mind. it'snot a big thing.
14:28:50 <phila> laufer: In terms of D&R, I think it's wrong. If DCAT defines a range, it's the same as in the source vocab
14:28:54 <antoine> yes we should probably fix it for the one double arrow we have in DQV!
14:28:58 <phila> ... If we define a domain we're extending the other vocab
14:29:34 <phila> ... for example, if we say dcterms:creator has a domain that we define that a reasoner might infer that
14:29:43 <phila> deirdrelee: Interesting discussion
14:29:47 <deirdrelee> ack phila
14:30:19 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to phil
14:30:24 <ericstephan> I like that Phil
14:31:54 <laufer> q+
14:33:08 <phila> phila: Repeated what was in his recent e-mail
14:33:13 <phila> ack l
14:33:26 <antoine> q+
14:33:38 <phila> laufer: I disgaree with phila.If they are comments, OK, but if we have RDF that specifies the D&R a reasoner will concluse what we say
14:33:45 <deirdrelee> ack antoine
14:33:51 <phila> phila: I agree that's the theory, not sure if it's the practice
14:34:26 <phila> antoine: I understand laufer's point. But I think we should distinguish between where we actually do define a D&R and where we mean a commnet
14:34:33 <deirdrelee> q?
14:34:44 <phila> ... We could perhaps say "expected subject" or "expected object"
14:34:51 <phila> ... That's how schema.org seems to be going
14:34:52 <laufer> q+
14:34:55 <phila> ack l
14:35:17 <phila> laufer: It's not a problem to use any classes in the D&R if they're not already defined
14:35:44 <phila> ... I agree that we can say 'expected class' etc. but I don't like it in the RDFS
14:35:52 <ericstephan> q+
14:35:52 <antoine> q+
14:35:54 <deirdrelee> q?
14:36:03 <phila> ericstephan:
14:36:07 <deirdrelee> ack ericstephan
14:36:28 <phila> ... This is a question to BernadetteLoscio - I remember the note about a usage. I'm confortable with leaving just as text
14:36:44 <phila> ... I wanted to put something in the text as well as the picture
14:37:28 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: I'm fine with textual expectations, remving domain from the table and using usageNote instead
14:37:39 <phila> ... dct:creator has a range of prov:Agent
14:37:44 <phila> q+ to talk about provAgent
14:38:15 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: Not sure if it's going to look nice in the doc
14:38:45 <laufer> we have to understand the inferences that come from these definitions
14:39:06 <deirdrelee> ack antoine
14:39:11 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: I couldn't find info about D&R for CiTO
14:39:38 <phila> antoine: If no D&R is not specified in the original vocab they probably have a reason for keeping it open.
14:40:05 <phila> antoine: There might be ways to express that a property has an expected usage
14:40:19 <deirdrelee> ack phila
14:40:19 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about provAgent
14:41:30 <deirdrelee> phila: As far as I can see, prov has reinvented foaf, and they created provagent, from my understanding provAgent is reinvention of foaf:Agent
14:41:39 <deirdrelee> ... and dcterms:agent
14:42:21 <deirdrelee> ... antoine mentioned datashapes, which is linked to wider work of application profiles, EC has been working on DCAT-AP, Andrea and JRC are working on GeoDCAT-AP
14:42:51 <phila> https://kwz.me/Rn
14:43:01 <deirdrelee> ...it would be great if datashapes could agree on an approach and move forward
14:43:33 <deirdrelee> ... this links leads to a large set of shape expressions (shexs) that seem to be winning the day, a common way to define an application profile
14:44:16 <ericstephan> q+
14:44:17 <deirdrelee> ... which is what we're talking about here, it's not up to us to redefine provAgent. We don't mind if you use foafagent or dcterms agent, it doesn't change the semantics
14:44:31 <deirdrelee> ... much happier to rely on work on datashapes based on this!
14:44:34 <phila> ericstephan: I was talking to Jim Myers this week
14:44:36 <deirdrelee> ack ericstephan
14:44:49 <phila> ericstephan: In the prov group they caled it aspects
14:45:15 <phila> ... the way you're describing things about the shapes WG is right on track with where we're trying to go
14:45:21 <phila> ... We're trying to show uage patterns
14:45:33 <hadleybeeman> I'm thrilled to hear we're so connected and getting so much feedback from other related work.
14:45:37 <phila> ericstephan: That sounds timely
14:45:57 <phila> ... The more we constrain models or have conflicts between D&Rs, the harder it is to reuse vocabs
14:46:10 <phila> ... So the Shapes WG is an important part of this
14:46:43 <deirdrelee> q?
14:46:52 <phila> ericstephan: I'm wondering for now whether we should put in usage Notes
14:47:17 <phila> ... anda then if there are opportunities to express a shape in the new year we can leverage that
14:47:18 <hadleybeeman> q+
14:47:22 <phila> q+
14:47:24 <deirdrelee> ack hadleybeeman
14:47:31 <laufer> The range of duv:refersTo has two classes: dcat:Dataset, dcat:Distribution If we have this in our rdf edfinition of duv, what we are saying is that the resource O in a triple "S duv:refesTo O" is a dcat:Dataset and a dcat:Distribution. And I do not thinnk that a resource could be a dcat:Dataset and a dcat:Distribution
14:47:36 <phila> hadleybeeman: Is there anyone involved in both WGs
14:49:59 <antoine> q+
14:50:24 <deirdrelee> hadleybeeman: do they have a use-case document?
14:50:32 <phila> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/shacl-ucr/ Data Shapes UCR
14:51:28 <phila> q-
14:51:35 <deirdrelee> ack antoine
14:52:05 <phila> antoine: I'm not folliowing the shapes work, but DCMI put in some use cases, and Karen Coyle is very active
14:52:18 <phila> ... I don't think we'll have any use cases that aren't already in there
14:52:19 <phila> q+
14:53:39 <annette_g> It looks like Sumit is in the data shapes WG
14:53:40 <ericstephan> q+
14:53:42 <phila> ack phila
14:53:54 <hadleybeeman> ack eric
14:53:54 <deirdrelee> ack ericstephan
14:53:56 <phila> talked a bit about use cases and fulfilling them
14:54:12 <BernadetteLoscio> and changing the arrows
14:54:23 <phila> ericstephan: So if we make the changes that laufer was asking for, i.e. making D&R restrictions into usage notes, can we vote for a publication?
14:54:28 <hadleybeeman> q+ to ask if we take out domain and range restrictions... will it affect how we judge conformance?
14:55:00 <phila> deirdrelee: I'd think we should wait as we're running out of time
14:55:00 <deirdrelee> ack hadleybeeman
14:55:00 <Zakim> hadleybeeman, you wanted to ask if we take out domain and range restrictions... will it affect how we judge conformance?
14:55:02 <phila> ack hadleybeeman
14:55:29 <phila> hadleybeeman: If we take out D&R for a term, we still need to deminstrate conformance - how do we do that?
14:55:41 <antoine> q+
14:55:43 <hadleybeeman> s/deminstrate/demonstrat
14:55:50 <phila> ericstephan: We need an answer for that
14:55:50 <deirdrelee> ack antoine
14:55:50 <hadleybeeman> s/demonstrat/demonstrate
14:56:41 <phila> antoine: I'd say it's a good question. The formal semantics of the open world, we're not really imposing anything. Even if the world's triples say that a dataset is also a car, you're Ok as long as no one says it's not a cat
14:57:58 <yaso> q?
14:58:24 <hadleybeeman> @antoine, I'm still a bit unclear on how that answers the question, but will be happy to see as the changes are made.
14:58:50 <phila> phila: Suggests that we aim to vote to publish during our next meeting on 8 Jan 2016
14:58:59 <phila> ... That gives us the break to review
14:59:23 <yaso> +1 to vote on 8 Jan..
14:59:28 <phila> ... People who will be on holiday then can register their assent/against during the holiday
14:59:57 <phila> phila: Notes to ericstephan that even if we vote now, it wouldn't be published until 5 Jan - we're talling about a 1 week delay in effect
15:00:04 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: I'm OK with this
15:00:19 <phila> ericstephan: I have snow and sleet here, so I can stay inside and work on this
15:00:26 <phila> deirdrelee: So with that...
15:00:56 <phila> ... We'll close up for today. Thanks everyone for the discussion on domains and ranges and where the Data Shapes Wg is
15:00:56 <riccardoAlbertoni> \me merry xmas/ vacation to all
15:01:11 <laufer> bye all... nice weekend...
15:01:12 <yaso> thank all
15:01:17 <yaso> bye!
15:01:27 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:01:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/18-dwbp-minutes.html phila
15:01:31 <annette_g> bye all, and happy holidays
15:01:42 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: I'd like to say I think we did a lot this year - thanks everyone
15:01:50 <Caroline_> bye! Thank you! Great Holidays!!
15:01:52 <newton> bye all, nice holidays! :-)
15:05:12 <phila> https://www.force11.org/meetings/force2016/forms/pre-conference-meeting-proposals
15:09:00 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:09:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/18-dwbp-minutes.html phila
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