IRC log of git on 2015-12-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:52:01 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-git-irc

13:52:26 [Ralph]

meeting: Using GitHub for W3C Specifications

13:52:33 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make record public

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13:58:28 [Mike5]

we doing the project review here, right?

13:58:57 [koalie]

present+ Coralie

13:59:04 [Ralph]

present+ PLH, Wendy, Ralph

13:59:06 [plh]

Slides are: http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/

13:59:13 [ivan]

Present+ ivan

13:59:14 [plh]

(same ones as Google slides)

13:59:24 [tzviya]

present+ TzviyaSiegman

13:59:24 [Ralph]

agenda+ scribe

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13:59:29 [Ralph]

agenda+ permission to record

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14:00:07 [Ralph]

agenda 2 = notification of recording

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14:00:53 [Bert]

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14:01:11 [plh]

present+ plh

14:01:28 [shawn]

+shawn

14:02:06 [dom]

Present+ Dom

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14:02:32 [Bert]

present+

14:02:39 [phila]

present+ phila

14:02:45 [ted]

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14:02:46 [tidoust]

Present+ Francois

14:02:47 [jeanne]

present+ jeanne

14:02:48 [ted]

Present+ Ted

14:02:55 [xiaoqian]

present+ xiaoqian

14:03:00 [Ian]

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14:03:09 [xueyuan]

present+ xueyuan

14:03:12 [Ian]

present+ Ian

14:03:13 [r12a]

zakim, who's here?

14:03:13 [Zakim]

Present: Coralie, PLH, Wendy, Ralph, ivan, TzviyaSiegman, shawn, Dom, Bert, phila, Francois, jeanne, Ted, xiaoqian, xueyuan, Ian

14:03:16 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Ian, ted, phila, Bert, xiaoqian, jeff, wseltzer, ChrisL, shawn, tzviya, koalie, RRSAgent, Zakim, xueyuan, plh, jeanne, Ralph, laurent, ivan, yatil, tidoust, dom, r12a,

14:03:16 [Zakim]

... nikos, Mike5, renoirb|aw, Yves, denis

14:03:23 [r12a]

present+ r12a

14:03:52 [nigel]

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14:03:57 [nigel]

Present+ nigel

14:03:58 [MichaelC]

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14:04:06 [MichaelC]

present+ MichaelC

14:04:26 [jeff]

scribenick: jeff

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14:05:09 [jeff]

[slide 1]

14:05:13 [yatil]

present+ EricE

14:05:18 [Ian]

scribenick: Ian

14:05:31 [Ian]

-> http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/ slides

14:05:41 [Ian]

Presented by Phililppe Le Hégaret

14:05:43 [kaz]

present+ Kaz

14:05:54 [koalie]

q?

14:06:21 [Ian]

NOTE: This is being recorded by AUDIO

14:06:24 [Ian]

...it will be made public

14:06:28 [jeff]

s/Phililppe/Philippe/

14:06:34 [Ian]

...if you do not wish to participate by audio.....don't speak up!

14:07:06 [shepazu]

present+ shepazu

14:07:30 [Ian]

(Overview)

14:07:34 [Ian]

....gaining experience

14:07:40 [Ian]

...want to show how relates to process and patent policy

14:07:57 [Ian]

...ultimately we'd like to harmonize how we use the tool across groups to make it easier to participate across groups

14:08:07 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/3

14:08:15 [Ian]

What is this NOT about?

14:08:30 [virginie]

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14:08:52 [wseltzer]

zakim, what color is the bikeshed?

14:08:52 [Zakim]

I think Magenta haze

14:09:12 [Judy]

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14:09:16 [denis]

present+ Denis

14:11:39 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/5

14:12:00 [Ian]

PLH: large developer community using it...makes sense for w3c community to use it as well

14:12:30 [Ian]

...lots of tools (like post processing) available

14:12:53 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/6

14:13:29 [tzviya]

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14:14:32 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/7

14:17:18 [Ian]

Repository manager -> https://labs.w3.org/hatchery/ash-nazg/

14:17:28 [Ian]

help track contributions from non-participants

14:17:42 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/8

14:18:22 [koalie]

-> https://github.com/dontcallmedom/github-notify-ml/ Tool to facilitate integration: github-notify-ml

14:18:49 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/9

14:20:10 [koalie]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/10

14:20:55 [jeff]

present+ jeff

14:21:12 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/11

14:21:27 [Ian]

PLH: Reduce notifications to not be overwhelmed

14:21:28 [vivien]

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14:22:03 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/12

14:23:31 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/13

14:23:50 [dom]

(re import: that applies if you have separate github repo, but also if you have a spec coming from any other separate version control system)

14:24:15 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/13

14:24:24 [Ian]

Note about force

14:24:34 [Ian]

Protect your main branch.

14:25:11 [vivien]

present+ vivien

14:25:12 [Ralph]

Don't Use the Force

14:25:16 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/14

14:25:25 [Ian]

PLH: One or several repositories?

14:25:33 [Ian]

(pros and cons)

14:25:54 [Ian]

...tools target 1 spec per rep

14:25:57 [Ian]

repo

14:26:41 [Ian]

1 repo advantage is easier migration of material and 1 issues list

14:26:52 [dom]

[it's not so much that it is harder to move stuff from one spec to another; it's just that it's less revision history friendly]

14:27:16 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/15

14:27:24 [Ian]

PLH: when migrating to github DO NOT LOSE HISTORY of your spec

14:27:49 [dom]

[FWIW, I've done that transfer a number of times, and can help with imports if people need guidance]

14:27:58 [dom]

[and big +1 on not losing history]

14:28:07 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/16

14:28:28 [Ian]

PLH: invite comments!

14:28:31 [Ian]

...easy to track

14:28:37 [Ian]

...advertize your repo

14:29:17 [Ian]

...group may accept them or not

14:29:18 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/17

14:29:29 [nigel]

zakim, q+ to ask if anyone creates a group repo to replace wiki with gh-pages and to manage actions as issues?

14:29:29 [Zakim]

I see nigel on the speaker queue

14:29:41 [Ian]

Use labels to differentiate between bugs, enhancement, etc.

14:30:11 [ivan]

Note that issues can be searched alongside labels, and those generate stable URI for a combination

14:30:35 [AdrianHB]

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14:30:50 [Ian]

PLH: It's easy to give a +1 on github to support a proposal (there's even an emoji)

14:31:54 [Ian]

PLH: See dashboard for example of cross repo (?) issue tracking

14:32:11 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2010/webperf/board/ Web Perf Issue dashboard

14:32:25 [Zakim]

nigel, you wanted to ask if anyone creates a group repo to replace wiki with gh-pages and to manage actions as issues?

14:32:26 [dom]

[I've started looking at making it more generic and customizable]

14:33:02 [Ian]

nigel: One of problems that's arisen is what to do with actions

14:33:09 [Ian]

...you've not mentioned so far interaction with tracker

14:33:20 [Ian]

...tracker had been used previously for issues and actions

14:33:32 [dom]

[in the WebRTC WG, we mostly assign people to issues instead of creating actions]

14:33:42 [Ian]

...has someone created a repo for the group that is separate from the group's documentation deliverables for actions?

14:33:43 [dom]

[but yes, some groups have done what Nigel describes]

14:33:44 [ivan]

q+

14:33:53 [Ian]

...have they used ghpages functionality to replace the wiki?

14:33:58 [plh]

ack ivan

14:34:15 [Ian]

ivan: In our group we made use of explicit assignment of issues to people

14:34:31 [Ian]

also, the search facilities through the issues is very rich...see separate search page on github

14:34:39 [dom]

[the tag manages e.g. its agendas via github https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings ]

14:34:46 [Ian]

...that let's you find easily which issues have been assigned to a particular person

14:35:13 [Ian]

nigel: I hear other technique is to use labels on issues

14:35:21 [Ian]

...so question: should you just replace the w3c wiki in github?

14:35:30 [Ian]

[Web Payments WG uses the github wiki]

14:35:32 [dom]

[the TAG wiki https://github.com/w3ctag/wiki ]

14:35:42 [Ian]

plh: home page of web platform WG is actually on github

14:35:49 [Ian]

...there's a separate repo for the home page of the WG

14:36:15 [vivien]

-> https://w3c.github.io/WebPlatformWG/ Web Platform Working Group homepage

14:36:15 [Ian]

...that repo does not contain any deliverables

14:36:17 [AdrianHB]

[Web Payments WG has a repo for the group and will create new ones for specs when we start writing them]

14:36:19 [Ian]

Nigel: that answers my question!

14:36:54 [koalie]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/18

14:36:55 [AdrianHB]

[... and therefor, as Ian says, uses the wiki on that repo]

14:36:55 [vivien]

-> https://github.com/w3c/WebPlatformWG/ Web Platform Working Group homepage repository on GitHub

14:36:57 [Ian]

closing issues

14:38:24 [Ian]

PLH: Some groups allow closing by individuals, some close after X days,

14:38:32 [Ian]

...pick a closure policy that matches your group size, culture

14:38:39 [Ian]

..make it as easy as possible to close typo fixes

14:38:49 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/19

14:38:54 [Ralph]

[I interpret "allowed to close" and "can close" on the slide as "entitled to ..."

14:38:58 [Ian]

wide review / horizontal issues

14:39:15 [vivien]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/19

14:39:36 [Ian]

PLH: My thinking is that we can use labels (e.g., "Security")

14:39:48 [Ian]

(Slide 19 includes a list of proposed labels)

14:40:18 [Ian]

Web platform forms team for reviewers

14:40:32 [Ian]

if you are interested in issue of type X you should join a team

14:40:40 [r12a]

q+

14:41:01 [plh]

ack r12a

14:41:09 [virginie]

+1 on the team and label idea \o/

14:41:15 [Ralph]

+1 to support these labels

14:41:25 [Ian]

r12a: We'd like to be able to label issues

14:41:35 [Ian]

...e.g., browsing repo we'd like to be able to track some issues

14:41:38 [Ian]

...can we add labels?

14:42:04 [Ian]

PLH: I think Teams may work since you can comment if you are part of a team

14:42:06 [Ralph]

+1 to entitle other groups to label issues that impact them

14:42:13 [dom]

[anyone with admin rights can add labels; but that means only staff by default]

14:42:23 [Ian]

...since non participants may not have authorization to label arbitrary repos

14:42:37 [Ian]

..thanks for the feedback

14:42:42 [dom]

[we could also build a tool specifically to label issues on w3c repos]

14:43:07 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/20

14:43:32 [Ian]

PLH: I prefer pull requests to fix typos to email telling me to do so...just push a button

14:43:36 [Ian]

...so encourage pull requests

14:44:16 [Ian]

...encourage all WG to edit a spec!

14:45:29 [Ian]

...enable peer reviews early

14:45:32 [dom]

q+ to mention continuous integration as a tool to facilitate pull request management

14:45:39 [Ian]

...Don’t require a pull request to fix a simple typo and allow direct commits for those

14:46:04 [dom]

-> https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-respec-ci Continous integration scripts for WebRTC specs

14:46:06 [plh]

ack dom

14:46:06 [Zakim]

dom, you wanted to mention continuous integration as a tool to facilitate pull request management

14:46:27 [Ian]

dom: With regard to pull requests, we've found useful in WebRTC to use continuous integration systems

14:46:32 [Ian]

...Travis is such a system

14:46:41 [Ian]

...we have a number of scripts that run when someone submits a pull request

14:46:59 [Ian]

...easy for submitters to know that there's a missing reference, or WebIDL not well-formed, or markup bug

14:47:06 [Ian]

....helps include quality of pull request

14:47:17 [dom]

s/include/increase/

14:47:21 [r12a]

i think a validator check tool would be useful !

14:47:51 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/21

14:48:09 [dom]

r12a, my script does html validation among other checks (both pre- and post-respec processing)

14:48:17 [Ian]

...Merge pull requests as you close issues

14:48:21 [r12a]

aha!

14:48:28 [Ian]

PLH: Tip - Consider squashing the commits to maintain a clean commit history for your specification

14:48:44 [Ian]

...this useful when there are multiple commits before getting to consensus

14:49:13 [dom]

[also, regarding commit messages, I've found http://chris.beams.io/posts/git-commit/ to be a useful approach to writing commit messages]

14:49:16 [tidoust]

q+ to wonder whether there is an easy online way to "view" the result of a PR on an an HTML spec

14:49:32 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/22

14:49:34 [Ian]

Github Team

14:49:50 [Ian]

PLH: Empower as many as possible in your group to be part of github team

14:49:59 [Ian]

...avoid silos

14:50:05 [dom]

tidoust, rawgit.com should work for that too, shouldn't it?

14:50:50 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/23

14:50:54 [Ian]

PLH: Ideally you use ghpages

14:51:03 [Ian]

...github service makes easy to see on the web

14:51:08 [Ian]

...if you do that you don't need master branch

14:51:09 [tidoust]

It should, dom, but is directly available from a PR page?

14:51:16 [Ian]

..you can make ghpages the default

14:51:31 [tidoust]

q-

14:52:24 [Ian]

PLH: we are thinking about git branches as a way to manage flow on rec track

14:52:33 [dom]

[some groups (for better or for worse) use master as a staging branch, and gh-pages when they want to release an editors draft]

14:53:17 [Ian]

PLH: If your edits reflect group consensus, your editors drafts are really like WDs

14:53:29 [Ian]

....so through Travis you can publish your docs (using Travis) to /TR automatically

14:53:40 [Ian]

...we know how to do this with respec

14:54:02 [nigel]

[you can view the outcome of a pull request by viewing the changed file, choosing 'View', then 'Raw', then adjusting the URL from raw.githubusercontent.com to rawgit.com]

14:54:05 [r12a]

q+

14:54:32 [plh]

ack r12a

14:54:34 [Ian]

...note that pubrules checker tool we know will be retired by Aug 2016...new checker in development

14:55:10 [Ian]

r12a: Re ED-as-WG...we've encountered the issue of making comments and then patching them back to original document

14:55:22 [Ian]

...we've had a lot of trouble having to look at Editor's drafts that have constantly changed

14:55:30 [Ian]

...hard to track back to the draft that was the source of problems

14:55:38 [Ian]

...so I18N WG publishes to TR often

14:55:49 [Ian]

...we ask people to review the TR version since the editor's draft evolves

14:55:54 [Ian]

PLH: Coming up in the talk!

14:56:01 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/25

14:56:06 [Ian]

[Automatic publication workflow]

14:56:47 [Ian]

PLH: Question of "when to publish"

14:57:11 [Ralph]

"significant change"

14:57:11 [Ian]

..pros and cons to "on every commit" or "every significant commit" or "on demand"

14:57:22 [Ian]

...but in any case, please don't let more than 6 months elapse between TR publications

14:57:51 [ivan]

q+

14:57:57 [Ian]

..that's a process requirement

14:58:21 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/26

14:58:27 [Ian]

[W3C process]

14:58:40 [Ian]

PLH: regarding the wide review requirement...suggest using labels

14:58:53 [Ian]

...also note use of public-review-announce@w3.org

14:59:07 [Ian]

...if you mention "wide review" in your doc, we have a tool that will automatically advertise your spec to that list

14:59:15 [Ian]

[What tool is that?]

14:59:49 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/#wide-review Process-2015 6.2.3.1 Wide Review

15:00:10 [Ian]

PLH: You don't have to do anything to use the tool

15:00:16 [Ian]

...just put "wide review" in the spec

15:00:36 [Ian]

PLH: Note that if you say "we don't want wide review' in your spec you'll hear from me...that's not coded!

15:00:54 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/#revised-wd Process-2015 6.3.2 Revising Public Working Drafts

15:01:14 [Ian]

PLH: We don't yet have a recommended way to generate a disposition of comments from an issues list

15:01:28 [Ian]

..there is a group that used labels to do that

15:01:42 [Ralph]

[the CSV on the Web Working Group]

15:01:47 [Ian]

...but we don't yet have a "recommended" way yet (their way worth consideration)

15:01:52 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/27

15:01:57 [Ian]

Additional tooling

15:02:05 [Ian]

PLH: Web Payments WG is using Wiki to build agenda

15:02:36 [Ian]

...we do not have a tool yet to generate activity summaries

15:02:42 [Ian]

...see modern tooling doc for more info:

15:02:49 [Ian]

...and ideas

15:02:49 [Ian]

http://w3c.github.io/modern-tooling/

15:03:10 [Ian]

...for example, there's a tool called "gitter" that is a chat tool integrated with github

15:03:23 [Ian]

..I don't know yet of any group that's decided to switch from IRC to bitter

15:03:37 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/28

15:03:41 [Ian]

[Going forward]

15:04:33 [Ian]

PLH: If you are interested in a project review on details of using github (e.g., pull requests) or auto publishing, let me know.

15:04:42 [Ian]

[Slides done]

15:04:43 [Ian]

q?

15:04:44 [plh]

agenda?

15:04:51 [Ian]

zakim, close item 1

15:04:51 [Zakim]

agendum 1, scribe, closed

15:04:52 [Ian]

zakim, close item 2

15:04:52 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

15:04:52 [Zakim]

2. notification of recording

15:04:53 [Zakim]

agendum 2, notification of recording, closed

15:04:54 [Zakim]

I see nothing remaining on the agenda

15:05:01 [Ian]

Reminder: Audio recording

15:05:15 [Ian]

ack ivan

15:05:16 [plh]

ack ivan

15:05:26 [Ian]

ivan: Back on slide 26

15:05:26 [jeanne]

I am very grateful for this session. This is the kind of information that is very useful and not documented in other places.

15:05:41 [Ian]

ivan: We've not used Echidna in our IG (not yet for IGs)

15:05:58 [Ian]

...can I select a specific github branch to be used for automatic publishing

15:05:59 [Ian]

PLH: Yes.

15:06:37 [Ian]

..the only problem with that (mentioned by tidoust) is that if you use something other than ghpages branch, you need to use the rawgit view...and if you have materials other than that page, there can be problems.

15:06:42 [dom]

[I think echidna should be improved to retrieve content via git rather than just http]

15:07:18 [Ian]

ivan: if we use automatic publishing tool, sounds like it mostly only works with alternative 1 on (publish on every commit)

15:07:22 [Ian]

PLH: Yes, that's correct.

15:07:39 [Ian]

...we don't yet have a way to do that with 2 or 3 (on slide 26) ... but mostly people haven't looked yet into doing it

15:07:42 [Ian]

ivan: Are there plans yet?

15:07:50 [Ralph]

[the alternatives described are on http://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/#revised-wd ]

15:08:08 [Ian]

plh: I'm not looking into it

15:08:10 [Ralph]

s|http://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/#revised-wd|http://www.w3.org/2015/Talks/1217-github-w3c/#/25|

15:08:33 [plh]

agenda?

15:08:35 [Ralph]

plh++

15:08:42 [shepazu]

plh++

15:08:53 [xiaoqian]

plh++

15:08:54 [koalie]

thanks Ian for scribing and plh for the review! bye all!

15:09:07 [Ian]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:09:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-git-minutes.html Ian

15:09:10 [Ian]

rrsagent, set logs public

15:09:27 [koalie]

koalie has left #git

15:10:49 [Ian]

rrsagent, bye

15:10:49 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items