IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2015-12-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:46:32 [RRSAgent]
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15:46:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-mobile-a11y-irc
15:46:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:46:34 [Zakim]
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15:46:36 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:46:36 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:46:37 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:46:37 [trackbot]
Date: 10 December 2015
15:48:03 [Kim]
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15:48:12 [Kim]
trackbot, start meeting
15:48:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:48:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:48:16 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:48:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:48:17 [trackbot]
Date: 10 December 2015
15:50:35 [Kim]
agenda+ Review draft of Mobile Accessibility Extension (2.5.3) - http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
15:50:37 [Kim]
agenda+ Next steps – next meeting December 17 (no meetings December 24 and December 31)
15:51:13 [Kim]
Regrets+ Alastair
15:57:13 [jeanne]
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16:00:30 [Detlev]
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16:01:00 [Detlev]
Is there a MATF meeting today? Can't find the agenda in my INBOX
16:02:41 [Kim]
yes
16:04:50 [Kim]
http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
16:07:33 [Henny]
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16:08:05 [jeanne]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Dec/0003.html
16:08:22 [Detlev]
So the name of the proposed technique was "Providing touch access for custom controls"
16:08:24 [jeanne]
Detlev: Question on the Technique I was working on
16:08:32 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
16:09:36 [Kim]
Topic: Questions on existing techniques
16:10:56 [jeanne]
Detlev: I took a slider control as an example
16:11:37 [jeanne]
... Technique tentatively titled Providing touch access for custom controls
16:11:59 [jeanne]
... how could that control operate when AT was turned on
16:12:32 [jeanne]
... In an example from Paciello Group, the example gives an option to set values on the slider.
16:12:55 [jeanne]
... for some sliders, that would be acceptable, where there are limited values for the slider
16:13:11 [jeanne]
... it could be the blueprint for an accessible slider
16:13:48 [jeanne]
KP: It's useful for other groups, like speech users.
16:14:18 [jeanne]
Alan: It would be helpful to announce the value range
16:14:38 [jeanne]
Detlev: It should be possible, but I'm not sure it was included in Paciello example.
16:14:46 [jeanne]
... I don't know if it works in Talkback
16:14:58 [jeanne]
Alan: I use a lot of sliders in my work.
16:15:33 [jeanne]
... it doesn't announce the number, it only announces the percentage of distance in the range.
16:15:57 [jeanne]
Detlev: It looks much more difficult with a continuous slider
16:16:15 [jeanne]
... I am much more concerned with the pass-through gesture.
16:17:49 [jeanne]
Kim: with speech, announcing the percentage works very well.
16:18:07 [jeanne]
Detlev: Do you have to focus first and then speak the number?
16:18:29 [jeanne]
Kim: No, in the Volume example, you just say Volume, then the percentage.
16:19:29 [jeanne]
Kim: In Alan's example, you can interact by sliding it using "right 10, right 10". If it is connected to a keyboard, you can use speech more effectively.
16:21:09 [david]
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16:21:27 [david]
sorry late...dialing in
16:22:27 [jeanne]
Jeanne: I am concerned that Patrick and Jon thought it was not possible with pass-through gestures
16:23:18 [jeanne]
Detlev: Since pass through gestures can't be relied on, I thought the technique should focus on the actions that are usable without pass through gestures.
16:23:40 [david]
I'm in
16:24:39 [jeanne]
The Success Criteria that we want the Technique to support is "2.5.1 Touch: All functions available by touch are still available by touch after system assistive technology that remaps touch gestures is turned on. (Level A)"
16:25:26 [Detlev]
http://files.paciellogroup.com/blogmisc/samples/aria/slider/
16:25:37 [jeanne]
Henny: If we can find an example that uses standard gestures instead of pass-through gestures, that would be better.
16:26:01 [jeanne]
Detlev: That's why I like the Paciello slider, it doesn't rely on pass through.
16:27:28 [jeanne]
David: putting alot of options in, would be better.
16:27:44 [jeanne]
Henny: Yes, and limit the behavior of native apps as well.
16:28:06 [jeanne]
Kim: Having both absolute and incremental are more useful.
16:30:54 [Kim]
http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
16:30:59 [jeanne]
topic: 2.5.3
16:31:31 [Detlev]
scribe: Detlev
16:32:32 [Detlev]
Kim: Any more comments on 2.5.3?
16:32:49 [Detlev]
Kim 2.5.4 Touch target size
16:33:23 [david]
http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
16:33:38 [david]
this has a discussion of it by Patrick
16:34:29 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/10-21-2015-Survey/results
16:35:29 [Detlev]
PAtrick commented that touch target size would equally apply to mouse input, nothing specific to mobile
16:36:36 [Kim]
Topic: 2.5.3
16:38:14 [Detlev]
david: Covering a touch behaviour where you slide you finger after touch away fro nthe target and still fire the event
16:38:54 [Detlev]
David: That was commented by Patrick - we maybe need to get back to him on that
16:39:53 [Detlev]
David: Greg's comment covered a shaky hand use case (peopleunable to leve the finger on the touch area)
16:40:37 [Detlev]
Kim: Solution?
16:40:45 [Detlev]
David: Be able to reverse action
16:41:49 [Detlev]
Kim: Two different issues
16:42:13 [Detlev]
David: We should right up the technique and see what people say
16:43:09 [Detlev]
(That applies to "Touch events are only triggered when touch is removed from a control"
16:43:49 [Detlev]
David: Gregg wants few / no new SC if possible
16:44:12 [jeanne]
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16:44:29 [Detlev]
Kim: Henny, any views on 2.5.3 from BBC srtandards perspective?
16:44:44 [david]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/focus/touch-events
16:45:20 [Detlev]
David: Language straight from BBC technique
16:45:53 [Detlev]
Henny: There was no pushback on that techniques, guidelines are currently being reviewed / updated
16:46:20 [Detlev]
David will contact Patrick regarding 2.5.3
16:46:42 [Detlev]
David: Feedbaxk from BBC would be useful
16:47:06 [Detlev]
Henny: Not with BBC anymore - no idea whether there was feedback on that
16:47:41 [Detlev]
Henny: Contact Gareth at BBC
16:47:51 [Henny]
Gareth Ford Williams
16:48:02 [Henny]
accessibilityteam@bbc.co.uk
16:48:36 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
16:48:37 [Detlev]
Kim: Back to 2.5.4
16:48:44 [jeanne]
Topic: 2.5.4
16:48:45 [Detlev]
thanks Jeanne
16:50:48 [jeanne]
Kim: There are no new comments since the changes. It looks like there is nothing else that has to be considered. Is there anything about 2.5.4 that needs discussion?
16:51:50 [jeanne]
Detlev: It needs some clarification so that one dimension has to be at least 9mm. Either the touch targets are smaller in one dimension, the clearance has to go up so you aren't touching another target.
16:52:16 [jeanne]
... it needs to include both dimension and clearance
16:52:56 [jeanne]
... it will get more complex if you want to include other devices, like pointer or touch. Patrick wants this to be handled more generally.
16:53:23 [jeanne]
Kim: If you don't know whether the user is using mouse or touch, then whatever works for the one that is most difficult will do for both.
16:53:48 [jeanne]
Detlev: I don't know how you would tell. Some devices would require both.
16:54:50 [jeanne]
Detlev: But including desktop would change the parameters.
16:55:42 [jeanne]
David: I'm hoping our work will end up in WCAG 3, so I would like to discuss this and figure out a solution that works on all devices.
16:56:10 [jeanne]
Alan: The trouble with mouse is that it is very fine control.
16:56:43 [jeanne]
... touch is much harder to select.
16:58:47 [jeanne]
jeanne: but people with fine motor problems need a larger target even if using a mouse.
16:59:26 [jeanne]
David: If the operating system does it, it's ok, but if the OS doesn't do it, the author has to.
17:00:25 [jeanne]
Kim: people who are using speech and zoomtext, have to keep going back and forth because the orientation is an issue.
17:00:41 [Henny]
I have to drop off the call. Thanks all.
17:00:52 [jeanne]
... some people want smaller touch targets, so they can orient where they are on the page.
17:01:21 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
17:01:37 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:01:51 [jeanne]
Topic: Next meeting
17:02:13 [jeanne]
Next meeting on 17th. No meeting on the 24 and 31 of December.
17:05:47 [Kim]
Present+ Kim, Jeanne, Alan, David, Detlev, Henny
17:06:29 [Kim]
chair: Kimberly_Patch
17:06:56 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
18:06:57 [jeanne]
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