15:45:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #alreq
15:45:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/08-alreq-irc
15:45:31 <Behnam> present?
15:45:42 <Behnam> q?
15:45:50 <Behnam> present+
15:45:55 <Behnam> who is here?
15:46:03 <Behnam> Zakim, who is here?
15:46:03 <Zakim> Present: Behnam
15:46:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Behnam, trackbot
15:46:28 <Behnam> list attendees
15:46:31 <Behnam> zakim, list attendees
15:46:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Behnam
15:46:40 <Behnam> zakim, list participants
15:46:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Behnam
15:47:41 <Behnam> Meeting: Arabic Layout Task Force Teleconference
15:48:42 <Behnam> rrsagent, set logs public-visible
15:48:52 <Behnam> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:48:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/08-alreq-minutes.html Behnam
15:49:07 <Behnam> rrsagent, set logs public-visible
15:52:45 <najib> najib has joined #alreq
15:52:47 <mostafa> mostafa has joined #alreq
15:52:57 <najib> HI
15:54:11 <mostafa> Hi, Najib.
15:58:49 <Shervin> Shervin has joined #alreq
15:59:00 <Shervin> Hello everybody.
15:59:14 <Shervin> Zakim who is here?
15:59:26 <najib> present+ najib
15:59:45 <Shervin> zakim, who is here?
15:59:45 <Zakim> Present: Behnam, najib
15:59:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see Shervin, mostafa, najib, RRSAgent, Zakim, Behnam, trackbot
15:59:54 <Shervin> present+ Shervin
16:00:42 <mostafa> present+
16:01:23 <mostafa> Hello, everyone.
16:01:44 <Shervin> Hey, Mostafa.
16:01:50 <Shervin> Chair: Behnam
16:01:57 <Shervin> ScribeNick: Shervin
16:02:27 <Behnam> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/08-alreq-minutes.html Behnam
16:02:46 <r12a> r12a has joined #alreq
16:02:56 <r12a> present+
16:03:03 <Behnam> Shervin, waiting for you on the call
16:04:35 <Shervin> Just a second.
16:05:23 <Shervin> zakim, who is here?
16:05:23 <Zakim> Present: Behnam, najib, Shervin, mostafa, r12a
16:05:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, Shervin, mostafa, najib, RRSAgent, Zakim, Behnam, trackbot
16:05:26 <Waseem> Waseem has joined #Alreq
16:05:42 <r12a> regrets+ Khaled
16:06:03 <Waseem> present+Waseem
16:06:23 <Waseem> present+ Waseem
16:06:29 <Shervin> zakim, who is here?
16:06:29 <Zakim> Present: Behnam, najib, Shervin, mostafa, r12a, Waseem
16:06:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see Waseem, r12a, Shervin, mostafa, najib, RRSAgent, Zakim, Behnam, trackbot
16:06:58 <Behnam> agenda+ Status review of action items from previous meeting
16:07:03 <Behnam> agenda+ Welcoming new participants
16:07:08 <Behnam> agenda+ Glossary status
16:07:14 <Behnam> agenda+ Review of Github issues
16:07:18 <Behnam> agenda+ Drafting status
16:08:06 <Shervin> Behnam: Opening the meeting with checking the action items.
16:08:10 <Behnam> http://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/actions/open
16:08:27 <Behnam> najib, can you hear us?
16:08:37 <Shervin> Behnam: First action is action-7 for Najib.
16:09:31 <Shervin> Najib: For glossary it was to move the translations from Azzedine's list to our main glossary sheet
16:09:42 <Shervin> ... it's not always copy/paste. Adaptation is needed.
16:10:01 <najib> run-in heading vs running heads ?
16:10:25 <Shervin> ... there are some confusions about some of the terms; e.g. "running heading", "running head"
16:10:49 <Behnam> Topic: Status review of action items from previous meeting
16:11:02 <Shervin> Richard: "running head": header of the page, "running heading": beginning of the sentence.
16:11:32 <r12a> s/of the sentence/of the paragraph/
16:11:33 <Shervin> q+
16:12:25 <Shervin> q-
16:13:14 <Shervin> Najib: For doing the pull request, there is some instructions needed.
16:13:59 <najib> If special   instructions are needed...
16:14:17 <Shervin> Action for Shervin to write Github pull request instruction
16:14:17 <trackbot> Error finding 'for'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/users>.
16:14:27 <Shervin> Action Shervin to write Github pull request instruction
16:14:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Write github pull request instruction [on Shervin Afshar - due 2015-12-15].
16:15:27 <Behnam> So, we can go with this order: http://www.w3.org/International/groups/arabic-layout/track/actions/open?sort=owner
16:15:36 <Behnam> ScribeNick: Behnam
16:15:46 <Shervin> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nSxYKQm_mKroCmxU4fyJ-g70Eo1_mF89yHZg8YNOuzc/edit
16:15:46 <Behnam> Shervin: Still working on ACTION-16
16:16:12 <Behnam> Shervin: Re ACTION-29, I've been working on the Persian side.
16:16:35 <Behnam> ... can convert it to HTML sometime next time
16:16:52 <Behnam> ... Still working on the other actions
16:17:07 <Shervin> ScribeNick: Shervin
16:18:17 <Shervin> Waseem: I connected with a friend in the region. Going to receive hard copies in the mail.
16:18:44 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
16:18:44 <Zakim> Present: Behnam, najib, Shervin, mostafa, r12a, Waseem
16:18:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see Waseem, r12a, Shervin, mostafa, najib, RRSAgent, Zakim, Behnam, trackbot
16:18:53 <Behnam> close action-22
16:18:53 <trackbot> Closed action-22.
16:19:38 <Shervin> Behnam: Going to send pull request for Action-23.
16:19:41 <Behnam> q+
16:19:59 <mostafa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TSA1Ju70FaMzUD2EXTgMnZtjszPKBeGj5O8FtXy9SqA/edit#
16:20:20 <r12a> q+
16:20:20 <Shervin> Mostafa: Action-24 drafting in progress. The only missing part is the ligatures.
16:20:48 <Behnam> close action-34
16:20:48 <trackbot> Closed action-34.
16:20:51 <Shervin> Mostafa: Action-34 can be closed as he put the comments on Github.
16:21:28 <Shervin> Behnam: General comment for everybody; agree on a font to use and have it for all the examples.
16:21:48 <Shervin> Behnam: Which font Mostafa is using in his examples?
16:21:58 <Shervin> Mostafa: It's Mitra for the images.
16:22:11 <Shervin> Mostafa: On Github issue there are comments in this regard.
16:22:25 <Shervin> Mostafa: We can change the typeface when we agree on the font.
16:22:52 <Shervin> Behnam: We can discuss the Github issues later.
16:22:53 <Shervin> q+
16:23:31 <Behnam> q?
16:23:37 <Behnam> ack behnam
16:23:42 <Shervin> q-
16:25:00 <Shervin> Richard: To Mostafa regarding ligatures section. There are some controversy regarding what is a ligature or not; Lam-Alef being a ligature or not.
16:25:08 <mostafa> q+
16:25:31 <Shervin> Mostafa: Heard things about it. Not sure how to address that.
16:25:55 <Shervin> Mostafa: All the technical documents call it "ligature".
16:25:57 <Shervin> q+
16:26:07 <r12a> q-
16:27:05 <Shervin> q-
16:27:23 <Shervin> Shervin: Mandatory vs. Optional ligature, but all ligatures. We can note that.
16:27:28 <mostafa> q+
16:27:31 <Shervin> q+
16:27:56 <Shervin> Richard: Ligated forms?
16:27:59 <Behnam> q+
16:28:14 <Behnam> ack mostafa
16:28:15 <Shervin> Mostafa: Optional ligatures are not in my plan.
16:28:40 <Behnam> ack Shervin
16:29:55 <Shervin> Shervin: Thinks we should follow what other communities are calling them "ligature".
16:30:23 <Shervin> q+
16:30:50 <Shervin> Shervin: For those experts who don't think these are ligatures we can have a note.
16:31:20 <Shervin> Behnam: Not sure we are all on the same page; we can call them all ligatures, but not sure that we are on the same page regarding optional vs. mandatory.
16:31:21 <mostafa> q+
16:31:31 <Behnam> ack Behnam
16:32:11 <Behnam> Shervin: I agree. The intention is not to call any of the ligatures mandatory, and that's a different discussion.
16:32:21 <Shervin> q-
16:32:30 <Behnam> 1+
16:32:46 <Shervin> q+
16:33:19 <Behnam> ack mostafa
16:33:25 <Shervin> Mostafa: We need to denote mandatory vs. optional in details. Depends on font, etc.
16:34:45 <Shervin> Behnam: We have a consensus on calling these ligatures and have a note in regards to issues of definition.
16:35:00 <Shervin> q?
16:35:02 <Shervin> q-
16:35:15 <Behnam> close action-20
16:35:15 <trackbot> Closed action-20.
16:35:36 <Behnam> agenda?
16:35:58 <Behnam> Topic: Glossary status
16:36:17 <Shervin> Behnam: Opening glossary status topics
16:37:35 <r12a> q+ to talk about diacritics
16:38:02 <najib> q+
16:38:48 <Shervin> Richard: Regarding diacritic in the glossary; for those audience who can read Arabic letters, but can not pronounce it.
16:39:26 <Shervin> Richard: It's extra work, but it would be useful for some experts.
16:39:36 <Behnam> q+
16:39:41 <r12a> q-
16:40:33 <Shervin> Najib: Not inclined to put the diacritic on all the letters. It overloads the words and writing. In Arabic text is marked with full diacritic when it's in Quran.
16:40:55 <Shervin> ... scholarly books to be read by people who are not native Arabic speakers.
16:41:05 <r12a> q+
16:41:18 <Shervin> ... For ambiguity we put the specific diacritics on letters needed.
16:41:47 <Waseem> +1
16:42:20 <Shervin> Richard: Not talking about general text. Just about the keywords in the glossary.
16:42:37 <Shervin> ... Transliteration might be easier.
16:43:09 <Shervin> ... just key glossary terms and not the text.
16:43:20 <Shervin> Najib: Which are key words?
16:43:43 <Shervin> Richard: Only the terms in the glossary.
16:43:52 <Shervin> Behnam: For all the terms and not a subset?
16:44:00 <Shervin> Richard: Correct.
16:44:01 <Shervin> q+
16:44:10 <Behnam> ack najib
16:44:10 <najib> q-
16:44:11 <r12a> q
16:44:18 <najib> q-
16:44:37 <Shervin> Behnam: Kind of agreeing with Najib. Separate column for pronounciation.
16:44:46 <Shervin> ... Not much hard in having them.
16:45:01 <Shervin> ... for native speakers it's not usual.
16:45:15 <Behnam> q?
16:45:35 <Shervin> Richard: How dictionaries look like in Persian?
16:46:02 <Shervin> Behnam: The word comes first and the the diacritic separately.
16:46:14 <Behnam> http://parsi.wiki/dehkhodasearchresult-fa.html?searchtype=0&word=2LXZhtmF
16:46:24 <Shervin> http://www.vajehyab.com/?q=%D8%B9%D9%85%D8%B1
16:47:10 <Shervin> q?
16:47:16 <Behnam> ack behnam
16:47:34 <Shervin> Richard: It would be easier to have transliterations.
16:49:25 <najib> q+
16:50:35 <r12a> q-
16:51:15 <najib> q-
16:51:19 <Shervin> Shervin: Talking about the common trends for documenting pronounciation
16:51:52 <Waseem> q+
16:51:53 <Shervin> Richard: In comparison to only letters with diacritics, transliteration is preferred.
16:52:00 <Shervin> q-
16:52:34 <Shervin> Richard: If the main use-case is to have it for people who don't speak Arabic, transliteration is better.
16:52:54 <najib> +1 to Richard
16:53:02 <Shervin> Waseem: Agrees regarding having transliterations. We can cover a larger audience.
16:53:17 <Shervin> ... It would be easier for them to use this glossary.
16:53:55 <Shervin> Behnam: Have a consensus regarding having transliteration.
16:53:58 <Shervin> q?
16:54:07 <Behnam> ack Waseem
16:54:09 <Shervin> q+
16:54:13 <Waseem> q-
16:54:30 <mostafa> q+
16:54:46 <r12a> q+
16:54:51 <Shervin> q-
16:55:07 <Shervin> Shervin: I need to look at semi-automatic solution.
16:55:40 <r12a> http://r12a.github.io/pickers/arabic/
16:55:42 <mostafa> q-
16:55:49 <Shervin> Mostafa: Agrees with the approach on scripting, having two entries in case of ambiguity.
16:56:07 <Shervin> Richard: Have a tool for producing transliterations.
16:56:47 <Shervin> ... Need to have diacritics.
16:57:14 <Shervin> ... we need to be consistent about the method of transliteration.
16:57:44 <Behnam> q?
16:57:49 <r12a> q-
16:58:15 <Shervin> Behnam: Anyone wants to take an action for this?
16:58:36 <Shervin> q+
16:58:47 <Shervin> q-
16:59:49 <Shervin> Behnam: The action we want to have is for add a column for transliteration.
17:00:54 <Behnam> Shervin: Can we agree on finishing the glossary work for now and then get to the transliteration step?
17:00:57 <Behnam> +1
17:01:01 <najib> +1
17:01:08 <Shervin> ... priority is first finish the glossary for priority one and two.
17:01:47 <Shervin> q-
17:02:00 <Behnam> action: Najib to lead the discussion on having transliteration/pronunciation columns in the glossary
17:02:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Lead the discussion on having transliteration/pronunciation columns in the glossary [on Najib Tounsi - due 2015-12-15].
17:02:10 <Behnam> agenda?
17:02:37 <mostafa> +1
17:02:37 <Shervin> q+
17:02:57 <Shervin> q-
17:03:09 <Behnam> Topic: Review of Github issues
17:03:23 <Shervin> https://github.com/w3c/alreq/issues/
17:05:12 <Shervin> Behnam: Going through GH issues.
17:05:38 <Shervin> ... Issue 21 and 16 are related.
17:06:56 <Shervin> Behnam: Discussing Issue 15.
17:08:02 <Shervin> Najib: Still working on the draft. Trying to add a section on the font and relation to typography.
17:08:51 <Shervin> Behnam: Discussing Issue 14.
17:08:58 <Shervin> Mostafa: Being drafted.
17:09:19 <Shervin> Behnam: Discussing Issue 13.
17:09:33 <Shervin> Mostafa: Ongoing discussion. To gather style issues.
17:10:19 <Shervin> Behnam: Discussing Issue 12.
17:10:26 <mostafa> q+
17:10:36 <mostafa> q-
17:11:05 <Shervin> Behnam: Should we keep this open?
17:11:29 <Shervin> Richard: We can close Issue 12.
17:12:08 <Shervin> Behnam: Issue 10. Keeping open for when we get to special cases.
17:13:08 <Shervin> Behnam: Issue 9 is dupe. Should be marked.
17:13:45 <Behnam> Behnam: Issue 8, any updates on the data source, CLDR or something else?
17:15:00 <r12a> q+
17:15:29 <r12a> q-
17:15:37 <Shervin> Shervin: Still ongoing. Going to do a pull request.
17:17:05 <Shervin> Richard: Issue with Kaf with dots.
17:17:21 <Shervin> Shervin: Please file an issue and Shervin will look into the details.
17:18:29 <Shervin> Mostafa: Issue 5, 4, 3 are to discuss topics.
17:18:38 <Shervin> ... Close after we added the content.
17:18:39 <Shervin> +1
17:18:44 <Behnam> agenda?
17:18:54 <Shervin> Behnam: Moving to next agenda item.
17:19:08 <Behnam> Topic: Drafting status
17:19:33 <mostafa> q+
17:19:33 <Shervin> Behnam: Drafting topic.
17:19:59 <Shervin> Mostafa: Two chapters are close to pull request.
17:20:12 <Shervin> Mostafa: Not going to pay much attention to the style
17:20:12 <Shervin> q+
17:20:35 <Shervin> Mostafa: We can adopt the style when we have a consenus.
17:20:53 <Waseem> q+
17:21:16 <r12a> q+
17:21:22 <Shervin> Behnam: General direction of images. Better to keep the direction of images left to right.
17:21:39 <Shervin> Mostafa: There are cases that it can be a problem.'
17:21:42 <mostafa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TSA1Ju70FaMzUD2EXTgMnZtjszPKBeGj5O8FtXy9SqA/edit#
17:22:07 <Shervin> ... In last image in joining section, having them from left to right doesn't make much sense.
17:22:53 <Shervin> Behnam: We might need to change equal sign to arrow or something.
17:23:00 <Behnam> q?
17:23:06 <mostafa> q-
17:23:11 <r12a> ack mostafa
17:23:18 <r12a> ack sh
17:25:04 <Behnam> q?
17:25:09 <najib> q+
17:25:44 <Shervin> Waseem: Wanted to start a different topic. Not having much time to contribute. I would like to contribute to a topic.
17:26:01 <Shervin> ... Bidi text in UI and best practices and problems and issues.
17:26:18 <mostafa> q+
17:26:24 <Shervin> ... It's common to see a mixture of Arabic and English in UIs. Wanted to cover a topic for that>
17:26:35 <Shervin> ack Waseem
17:27:14 <Shervin> Richard: The group can use me as a resource for the bidi issues.
17:27:40 <Shervin> ... Mostafa's example is confusing to understand if we're composing or decomposing.
17:28:05 <Shervin> ... My experience is it's better to go right to left for examples and images; even with arrows.
17:28:19 <Shervin> ... Consistency matters as usual.
17:28:33 <Shervin> Richard: Regarding what Waseem mentioned;
17:28:55 <Shervin> ... I'm totally interested to hearing those, but the document might not be a good place for these.
17:29:20 <Shervin> ... A little concerned the right thing for this document.
17:29:29 <Behnam> q?
17:29:35 <r12a> q-
17:29:36 <Shervin> ack r12a
17:29:42 <Waseem> q+
17:29:58 <Shervin> Najib: The example with equal sign might be confusing.
17:30:34 <Behnam> q+
17:30:43 <Shervin> ack najib
17:30:57 <Shervin> Najib: Add arrow.
17:31:36 <Shervin> Waseem: Regarding Richard's observation. We can discuss the topic on next call.
17:31:45 <Waseem> q-
17:32:08 <Behnam> http://unicode.org/reports/tr9/
17:32:18 <Shervin> Behnam: Step away from transferring information with arrow or equal sign.
17:32:48 <Shervin> ... Be explicit in draft and write things down.
17:32:58 <Behnam> ack Behnam
17:33:37 <Shervin> Mostafa: Regarding what Waseem mentioned. The UI is important but currently not in the list of topics. It's similar to issue of Quran (special pages).
17:33:50 <Behnam> +1
17:33:55 <Shervin> ... It might need it's own section or adding a topic to current list of topics.
17:34:05 <Behnam> ack mostafa
17:34:23 <Shervin> q?
17:34:35 <Shervin> Behnam: Closing the meeting.
17:34:48 <Shervin> zakim, please excuse us.
17:34:48 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Behnam, najib, Shervin, mostafa, r12a, Waseem
17:34:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #alreq
17:37:32 <Behnam> RRSAgent, draft minute
17:37:32 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', Behnam.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:37:40 <Behnam> RRSAgent, help
17:37:54 <Behnam> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:37:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/08-alreq-minutes.html Behnam