IRC log of svg-a11y on 2015-12-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:03:57 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
15:03:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:03:59 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:04:01 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:04:01 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:04:02 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:04:02 [trackbot]
Date: 04 December 2015
15:04:20 [AmeliaBR]
15:05:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
15:05:49 [chaals]
Present+ chaals
15:06:01 [AmeliaBR]
present+ AmeliaBR
15:06:12 [fesch]
present+ fesch
15:06:19 [fesch]
chair: fesch
15:06:23 [AmeliaBR]
scribe: AmeliaBR
15:06:40 [AmeliaBR]
TOPIC: Admin & Housekeeping
15:06:51 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: How many more meetings before end of the year?
15:06:56 [AmeliaBR]
present+ Rich
15:06:57 [chaals]
15:07:13 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: No more than 2. Who's going to be available next week?
15:07:32 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: I would like to meet next week to follow up on the testable statements work in the main WG.
15:08:01 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: I'd also like to get started on the test suite. That gives people things to work on while others are on holiday.
15:09:00 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: I'm available next 2 weeks, but then will be in Australia which doesn't work with this time.
15:09:41 [chaals]
[I'll be OK for next 2 weeks, then in Australia, where this meeting is not at a reasonable time. I'll be probably back on 22nd Jan.]
15:10:06 [AmeliaBR]
Resolution: The Task Force will meet Dec 11 & 18, won't meet Dec 25/Jan 1, then will reconvene Jan 8.
15:11:03 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Since the TF is split between different WG, it's hard to use the tracker for Actions. Michael Cooper has offered to set up a specific Tracker for the task force.
15:11:11 [AmeliaBR]
(no objections/comments)
15:11:28 [chaals]
15:11:50 [AmeliaBR]
RESOLUTION: Ask Michael to set up an issue & action tracker for the task force.
15:12:22 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Rich, are you still planning to set up a poll to consider a new telcon time?
15:12:43 [fesch]
Topic: SVG 2 TODOs
15:13:07 [AmeliaBR]
s/time?/time? Rich: I'll do that in January/
15:14:00 [fesch]
amelia: issue with role test - will it add extra functionality? Unlikely new functionality get into SVG 2.
15:14:37 [fesch]
amelia: support for general idea but not likely to happen for SVG 2.
15:15:05 [fesch]
amelia: a couple TODOs on mapping spec
15:15:51 [fesch]
amelia: need to go through and do research on current behavior, before we make proposals for changes
15:16:36 [AmeliaBR]
TOPIC: Testing & Test Suites
15:17:06 [fesch]
15:17:08 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: The ARIA WG is moving ahead with setting up new tests for ARIA specs, we will need to coordinate
15:17:21 [fesch]
15:17:27 [AmeliaBR]
... the wiki list is a set of testable statements I put together
15:17:45 [AmeliaBR]
... Chaals and Leonie have been putting together test case SVG examples on GitHub
15:18:10 [chaals]
15:18:28 [AmeliaBR]
... I would like someone else to go through my testable statements list & identify gaps. For starters, I don't have anything related to roles.
15:18:56 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: It looks like a good list, but I'd like to see them turned into actual tests. Do you plan to do that?
15:19:10 [chaals]
ack me
15:19:33 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: I will, but I'm waiting on the ARIA WG to decide on a template or format, so I can work with that.
15:20:30 [AmeliaBR]
Leonie: If the list could be copied to the GitHub repo, that would make it easier to review, update, and file issues.
15:21:31 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: Even if there are missing things, we can start making tests, and update or delete as needs be. Start with what we've got & then add more.
15:21:58 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: So I should start with the format you've already got?
15:22:13 [AmeliaBR]
Leonie: If you clone the repo, there's already a template file in there.
15:22:55 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: You may also want to talk to Michael, I know they have some JavaScript magic to put the proper test structure.
15:24:17 [AmeliaBR]
... but you can start by converting the prose into actual SVG code.
15:25:30 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Does someone want to review to be sure my tests are correct?
15:25:43 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: I will eventually, but it may need to be an iterative process.
15:25:54 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: I can look at it this week.
15:25:56 [chaals]
ACTION: Chaals to review Fred's test proposals as far as possible in a week.
15:25:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1757 - Review fred's test proposals as far as possible in a week. [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-12-11].
15:26:31 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: I also need to look at the roles, I only looked at name and description
15:27:06 [AmeliaBR]
ACTION: Fred to expand testable statements to include roles.
15:27:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1758 - Expand testable statements to include roles. [on Fred Esch - due 2015-12-11].
15:28:01 [chaals]
15:28:34 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Looking forward, how will the tests actually be done?
15:28:57 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: There hasn't been the bandwidth to set up an automated process yet.
15:29:49 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: So far, it's been manual, testing and then writing results into an HTML file. If we could at least set up a system where someone can just click yes/no and have it submit the data, that would be helpful.
15:29:55 [AmeliaBR]
TOPIC: Examples
15:30:09 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Chaals, you've been working on this.
15:30:44 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: We have put together a collection of images; I've been starting with ~5 of them, trying to make them as accessible as I can.
15:31:29 [AmeliaBR]
... It's fairly straightforward for tree diagrams, chord charts, and basic bar charts.
15:31:53 [AmeliaBR]
... I haven't touched anything interactive.
15:32:04 [AmeliaBR]
... I also haven't really used any of the new roles.
15:32:42 [AmeliaBR]
... I'm mostly focusing on trying to make things work now, with keyboard nav, which means not relying much on ARIA.
15:33:32 [AmeliaBR]
... Existing implementations are so bad, that we can't rely on it.
15:34:24 [AmeliaBR]
... Going forward, we want to create best practices examples. Which means making code that sometimes seems like stupid choices to an author, to work around the rubbish browser/AT implementations.
15:35:31 [AmeliaBR]
... But the other thing is to make examples of what *should* work, based on the specs, so that we can take them to the browsers & ATs and tell them to fix it.
15:35:57 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: One thing, is how to address interactive issues. Does W3C have interactive tests?
15:36:14 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: Yes, you just need a clear script of what the tester should do and what the outcome should be.
15:37:17 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: We definitely need to test interactivity, because navigation and many other functions are inherently interactive.
15:37:36 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Are there interactive SVG tests? Should we follow their format?
15:38:06 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: There are in existing test suite, hasn't been updated in a while. SVG may be switching to the test system used by CSS, which is more automated.
15:40:11 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: For interactivity and other features, we need to write up these ideal examples.
15:41:32 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: I would like to create a system of paired examples: For each example, write it up once with the ideal, minimal markup, and once with the current best-practice redundant markup. The redundant markup would be current advice for authors, but it would also help emphasize to browsers/AT why they need to support the simpler declarative/semantic syntax.
15:42:32 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: We need to sync up with SVG as far as test suites. E.g., tabindex is SVG 2. Has any work been done in SVG WG about getting test suites for that?
15:42:58 [chaals]
15:43:25 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: Not that I've heard. The current focus is getting the spec finalized, tests will come next.
15:43:48 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: Should we even address that in our tests, then, if it's part of the main SVG 2?
15:44:12 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: I think we should, so long as we make sure we're coordinated and consistent.
15:44:30 [chaals]
15:44:54 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: We may also have features that we're more concerned with that we want to emphasize.
15:46:10 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: It would be useful if we can include our tests within their test suite, so that they are clearly visible when someone is testing. But if that's not possible, so long as we push forward and make sure people are reminded of the results when tests are being failed, that's fine. It's just more work for us to emphasize it.
15:46:19 [fesch]
15:48:32 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: I've been working on the gamepad spec for APA. They use SVG as <embed> in an example. I was hoping to work with Jason to help mark that up ideally.
15:49:01 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: If there are examples of how SVG should behave in other accessibility specs, it makes sense for us to review for best practices.
15:49:41 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: There a lots of SVG figures in W3C specs, and most of them are garbage markup from authoring tools.
15:49:58 [AmeliaBR]
Amelia: That might be over-reaching to try to fix every figure.
15:50:24 [AmeliaBR]
Fred: But if I see similar examples and figures, can I grab them or bring them to peoples' attention?
15:50:48 [AmeliaBR]
Chaals: I have been doing that, putting them in the repo. Please use the repo for any similar example.
15:50:57 [AmeliaBR]
TOPIC: Name and Description
15:51:24 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: Right now this is a core issue, need to review the proposals Amelia made.
15:52:51 [AmeliaBR]
s/TOPIC: Name and Description/TOPIC: Specifications/
15:53:15 [AmeliaBR]
s/Right now/Right now, for name and description,/
15:54:07 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: I also need to write up a mapping spec for the new mapping spec for the new graphics roles. This is separate from the SVG mapping, as these roles may be used with other languages. But it should be a short spec.
15:57:50 [AmeliaBR]
Rich: I will also follow up with putting pressure on browsers to get support for key things, such as tabindex.
15:58:02 [AmeliaBR]
(Discussion on current sorry state of tabindex support in SVG)
16:03:41 [AmeliaBR]
trackbot, end telcon
16:03:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:03:41 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Fred, AmeliaBR, chaals, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, shepazu, LJWatson, Jason, fesch, Doug
16:03:49 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:03:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:03:50 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
16:03:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chaals to review Fred's test proposals as far as possible in a week. [1]
16:03:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:03:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Fred to expand testable statements to include roles. [2]
16:03:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in