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15:12:27 <ivan> trackbot, start telcon
15:12:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:12:31 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:12:31 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:12:32 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:12:32 <trackbot> Date: 23 November 2015
15:12:41 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:13:35 <ivan> Regrets: Vlad_Levantovsky, Laura_Fowler, Luc_Audrain
15:14:16 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Nov/0145.html
15:14:32 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #dpub
15:14:43 <ivan> Regrets+ Paul_Belfanti
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15:56:55 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya_Siegman
15:59:04 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
15:59:13 <Karen> present+ Karen
15:59:17 <dauwhe> present+ Dave_Cramer
15:59:20 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
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16:00:01 <brady_duga> present+ duga
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16:01:52 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:01:52 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Dave_Cramer
16:02:06 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:02:06 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tzviya_Siegman
16:02:07 <astearns> :)
16:02:16 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:02:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Karen
16:02:27 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
16:02:28 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
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16:02:38 <astearns> present+ astearns
16:02:44 <nickbarreto> present+ nick_barreto
16:02:47 <ayla_stein> present+ ayla_stein
16:03:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's get started
16:03:22 <dauwhe> ... we need to approve the minutes from last week
16:03:33 <dauwhe> ... any comments?
16:03:37 <dauwhe> (silence, sortof)
16:03:42 <dauwhe> ... minutes approved.
16:03:48 <dauwhe> ivan: minutes are perfect.
16:03:56 <dkaplan3> Present+ Deborah_Kaplan
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16:03:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: Topic: CSS examples
16:04:53 <dauwhe> ... we still need volunteers; we've had some on the list
16:05:02 <dauwhe> ... I had offered to provide some samples to Dave
16:05:09 <Daniel-Weck> Trying to get into WebEx...what the password? :)
16:05:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
16:05:26 <dauwhe> ... there's been some back and forth
16:05:50 <dauwhe> ... we need more samples for the csswg
16:06:03 <pkra> present+ Peter Krautzberger
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16:06:33 <liam> present+ Liam_Quin
16:06:40 <ivan> Present+ Daniel_Weck
16:06:42 <HeatherF> present +Heather_Flanagan
16:06:59 <dauwhe> dauwhe: examples from decimal alignment of tables
16:07:07 <dauwhe> astearns: printed examples are better
16:07:23 <ivan> q+
16:07:28 <dauwhe> tzviya: I can provide some PDFs, Paul offered
16:07:42 <tzviya> ack iv
16:07:46 <dauwhe> ... a colleague sent me a list of issues
16:07:54 <dauwhe> ivan: I might have another example
16:08:13 <dauwhe> ... a guy from Germany at a small pub talked to me about a book they put together by cutting and pasting journal articles
16:08:18 <dauwhe> ... kind of a collage
16:08:23 <Bert> Present+
16:08:30 <dauwhe> ... he had something in PDF, 5k pages
16:08:40 <dauwhe> ... he may send me a few pages
16:08:50 <rdeltour> present+ Romain Deltour
16:08:51 <dauwhe> ... might have usage of float
16:09:01 <dauwhe> ... if I get it I'll send it to the list
16:09:10 <dauwhe> ... and we can comment
16:09:24 <dauwhe> tzviya: I feel bad for the person reading a five thousand page PDF
16:09:43 <dauwhe> ivan: print is 5k pages, they want to reproduce digitally
16:10:11 <dauwhe> ... anyone else with funky examples?
16:10:19 <dauwhe> Topic: Romain
16:10:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:10:42 <dauwhe> rdeltour: here on behalf of DAISY; also a member of EPUB WG
16:10:52 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're happy to have you
16:11:09 <dauwhe> Topic: New PWP Identifier Task Force
16:11:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: who's in, who's leading, goals, etc.
16:11:29 <dauwhe> ... Bill, are you on phone
16:11:40 <dauwhe> ... markus mentioned you agreed to lead
16:11:47 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Yes, I was volunteered
16:12:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: Romain, Matt, and Markus have agreed to be on the Task Force
16:12:09 <dauwhe> ivan: and probably me
16:12:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: and me
16:12:28 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the arm-twisting began with the statement y'all would be on the task force
16:12:41 <dauwhe> (general hilarity ensues)
16:12:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: any other volunteers? But first let's talk about goals
16:13:11 <dauwhe> ... this group will be working with EPUB 3.1 WG
16:13:25 <dauwhe> ... with goal of identifying proposals for identifiers for both EPUB 3.1 and PWP
16:13:35 <dauwhe> ... submitting solutions to EPUB 3.1 by March
16:13:43 <dauwhe> ... forward-compatible
16:13:52 <dauwhe> ... talking about package identifier, not fragment identifiers
16:14:04 <ivan> q+
16:14:08 <tzviya> ack iv
16:14:13 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: while component and frag identifiers are still in scope, the initial path is package identifiers
16:14:38 <dauwhe> ivan: I think that talking about pub identifier without talking about ID of components won't work
16:14:45 <dauwhe> ... but we don't need to worry about fragments
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16:15:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: we can talk about identifying the package and ch1, but not words in ch1
16:15:02 <dauwhe> ivan: correct
16:15:24 <dauwhe> tzviya: another issue is the state of the package; IDs need to be state-agnostic
16:15:35 <dauwhe> ... also relevant to EPUB 3.1 and the BFF format
16:15:52 <dauwhe> ... the portable EPUB (traditional) and BFF (readable online)
16:15:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: not to blend these discussions
16:16:10 <tzviya> q?
16:16:15 <dauwhe> ... BFF discussion is currently being thought of as a tightening up of EPUB 3.1
16:16:40 <ayla_stein> I'd be interested in participating on this working group
16:16:44 <dauwhe> ... Dave mentioned progressive enhancement last week
16:16:59 <dauwhe> ... does there need to be a distinction between relaxed epub and tightened-up epub?
16:17:04 <ivan> q+
16:17:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's not get into this now; let's focus on identifiers
16:17:18 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the reason I mentioned that
16:17:35 <dauwhe> ... there is some recent work on ISTC
16:17:39 <dauwhe> ... which was moribund
16:17:46 <dauwhe> ... where that seems to be going
16:17:57 <dauwhe> ... it identifies in a more abstract way what is a publication
16:18:11 <dauwhe> ... it may allow various degrees of clustering
16:18:20 <dauwhe> ... this ISTC covers all versions of pub in English
16:18:31 <dauwhe> ... this other layer distinguishes between en-us and en-gb
16:18:40 <dauwhe> ... this other layer deals with translations or abridgements
16:19:16 <dauwhe> ... Ivan brought up we need URL and URN;
16:19:27 <dauwhe> ... Our spec should be agnostic about those identifiers
16:19:36 <dauwhe> ... we should provide syntax
16:19:40 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:19:49 <dauwhe> ivan: two different things
16:20:03 <dauwhe> ... first, I would say that this task force is not really about identifiers
16:20:11 <dauwhe> ... we do not, must not define identifiers
16:20:13 <tzviya> +1
16:20:17 <dauwhe> ... we are talking about locators
16:20:20 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: thanks
16:20:37 <dauwhe> ... if you call task force identifiers you get into the morass
16:20:42 <dauwhe> ivan: we should talk about locators
16:20:47 <dauwhe> ... what I wanted to say is
16:20:53 <dauwhe> ... I see two goals
16:21:01 <nickbarreto> q+
16:21:13 <dauwhe> ... we have discussed a drafty thing in the PWP draft
16:21:21 <dauwhe> ... we must clean up this draft
16:21:30 <dauwhe> ... to see if it is proper, and what we need
16:21:36 <dauwhe> ... so manifest is workable etc
16:21:44 <tzviya> q?
16:21:47 <dauwhe> ... I'd like a proof of concept
16:21:51 <dauwhe> ... showing it could work
16:22:05 <dauwhe> ... and we have to identify if there's anything there that should become a long-term standard
16:22:15 <dauwhe> ... maybe in a year we will set up a WG somewhere
16:22:33 <dauwhe> ... to standardize
16:23:01 <dauwhe> ... what of this can be used for EPUB 3.1 in spite of constraints
16:23:06 <tzviya> ack nick
16:23:07 <dauwhe> ... but we need longer-term focus
16:23:23 <dauwhe> nickbarreto: In relation to locaters
16:23:29 <dauwhe> ... chapters within a publication
16:23:50 <dauwhe> ... is there any need for implicit relationship between locators
16:23:56 <dauwhe> ... in ch1 knowing ch2 is next
16:24:08 <dauwhe> ivan: I'm not sure I understand
16:24:11 <Karen_> Karen_ has joined #dpub
16:24:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: is what you're talking about the relative position in the file?
16:24:41 <ivan> q+
16:24:43 <dauwhe> nickbarreto: should locators have relationshipo with each other
16:24:46 <tzviya> ack iv
16:24:54 <dauwhe> ivan: what you just said...
16:25:26 <dauwhe> ... the way we define PWP is a set of different resources that someone decided belonged together
16:25:37 <TimCole> q+
16:25:42 <dauwhe> ... locators can be very different... ch1 and foobar1 which could belong to the same doc
16:25:48 <dauwhe> ... so we shouldn't make assumptions
16:25:56 <dauwhe> ... maybe we need mapping in manifest
16:26:03 <dauwhe> ... and this is all part of the discussion
16:26:19 <dauwhe> ... the starting point is someone decides to conceptually put together resources from all over the place
16:26:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: I think it's also important to recognize that IDPF is working on specific things
16:26:45 <dauwhe> ... and the goal of this task force is strictly the locator
16:26:56 <dauwhe> ... IDPF is worrying about linearity and spine and manfiest and such
16:27:02 <tzviya> ack tim
16:27:07 <dauwhe> ... the goal of this task force is strictly the locator
16:27:16 <dauwhe> TimCole: this might be out of scope in near term
16:27:21 <dauwhe> ... with journals
16:27:32 <dauwhe> ... article 1 in Journal A will be article 7 in Journal B
16:27:39 <dauwhe> ... so locators can't have sequencing
16:27:52 <dauwhe> ... we shouldn't make assumptions about these things
16:28:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're not talking about how to assemple the package, just how to locate items in the package
16:28:33 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it's 2-layered
16:28:41 <dauwhe> ... locate package, then you can locate components
16:28:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: in practice, it might not be so two-stepped
16:28:56 <tzviya> q?
16:29:02 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: you have to have that single high-level locator
16:29:14 <dauwhe> ... it's not just a collection; the collection itself has to have a locator
16:29:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: now that we've talked a bit about what this group will do
16:29:37 <dauwhe> ... timeline for proposals is March
16:29:45 <dauwhe> ... any other volunteers
16:29:52 <dauwhe> Ivan: not identifier
16:29:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: change name to locator?
16:29:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: yes
16:30:26 <dauwhe> (the usual silence when volunteers are requested)
16:30:42 <HeatherF> I will sign up
16:30:55 <ayla_stein> *thumbs up*
16:31:18 <dauwhe> Topic: Call for Consensus on next publication of PWPWP
16:31:23 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/
16:31:46 <dauwhe> tzviya: here's the current draft
16:31:55 <dauwhe> ... of the portable web publications white paper
16:31:58 <dauwhe> ... what's changed?
16:32:05 <dauwhe> ivan: I did give an update last week
16:32:24 <dauwhe> ... a few comments on grammar etc
16:32:38 <dauwhe> tzviya: ralph has checked for grammar
16:32:46 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: FPWD?
16:32:49 <dauwhe> ivan: no, second
16:33:05 <dauwhe> ... that's an ED, but I turn it into WD during formal publication process
16:33:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: we can do call for consensus now
16:33:23 <dauwhe> ivan: don't need to be formal
16:33:29 <tzviya> q?
16:33:33 <dauwhe> ... does anyone formally object
16:33:38 <dauwhe> (the good kind of silence)
16:33:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to publishing
16:33:54 <dauwhe> ivan: will probably be published on Thursday
16:34:00 <dauwhe> ... you americans will be eating Turkey
16:34:05 <ayla_stein> "turkey" for those of us who are vegetarian
16:34:21 <dauwhe> Topic: what next with PWPWP?
16:34:58 <dauwhe> tzviya: one next step is putting together proposals for EPUB 3.1 WG
16:35:09 <dauwhe> ... did Ivan and Markus discuss?
16:35:15 <dauwhe> ivan: yes, we agreed Markus would lead
16:35:31 <dauwhe> (possible synchronicity)
16:35:42 <dauwhe> ivan: we clarified some items for ourselves
16:35:56 <dauwhe> ... what I said about locator task force is to work out some details
16:36:04 <dauwhe> ... this is one way of moving ahead
16:36:08 <dauwhe> ... there are some other areas
16:36:20 <dauwhe> ... and I don't be the one writing all the details for all the areas
16:36:33 <dauwhe> ... so I would like to have a clearer idea where we go with this work
16:36:39 <dauwhe> ... in the coming half-year or year
16:36:47 <dauwhe> ... and see if there are areas other people want to pick up
16:36:53 <dauwhe> ... like security
16:36:58 <dauwhe> ... the user-control issues
16:37:12 <dauwhe> ... the packaging stuff we can put on hold for a while
16:37:24 <dauwhe> ... I want to see if all these ideas make sense
16:37:31 <dauwhe> ... Jake put together a skeleton
16:37:37 <dauwhe> ... and Daniel in Readium
16:37:49 <dauwhe> ... can we put togehter a proof-of-concept implementation
16:37:55 <tzviya> q?
16:37:57 <dauwhe> ... and this might surface other issues
16:38:25 <dauwhe> ... and I can't do it all by myself
16:38:34 <dauwhe> tzviya: we haven't talked much about an archive format
16:39:00 <ayla_stein> YES
16:39:08 <ayla_stein> *waves*
16:39:09 <dauwhe> ... which is nice for pubs but crucuial for the library community
16:39:19 <dauwhe> ... it would involve talking with other communities
16:39:32 <HeatherF> Yep
16:39:35 <dauwhe> ... heather has some involvement, too
16:39:38 <dauwhe> ... and Lars
16:39:47 <dauwhe> ... who was sitting in at TPAC
16:39:58 <dauwhe> ... so we do have some members involved with the library community
16:40:21 <dauwhe> ... and dauwhe posted a link to a service worker experiment
16:40:35 <dauwhe> ivan: we have to look at the document
16:40:44 <dauwhe> ... the document can be used as a scratch pad
16:41:04 <dauwhe> ... we put in sections on technical areas that must be addressed
16:41:19 <dauwhe> ... we can use same approach for what library/archiving community needs
16:41:26 <dauwhe> ... so we may need a new task force
16:41:35 <dauwhe> ... and looking at what's there... is it OK or not
16:42:00 <dauwhe> tzviya: before we move on to acme publishing
16:42:08 <TimCole> yes
16:42:09 <ayla_stein> yep
16:42:18 <dauwhe> ... ayla, tim, heather... can you begin exploring library/archiving stuff?
16:42:21 <HeatherF> Yes, though I need to some guidance on exactly what to ask.
16:42:31 <dauwhe> tzviya: do we want a timeline?
16:42:53 <dauwhe> HeatherF: I'm happy to reach out to library community; I need guidance on what we're asking for
16:43:01 <dauwhe> TimCole: scope will determine timeline
16:43:11 <dauwhe> ... but this is of great interest to library community
16:43:26 <dauwhe> ... what are the obligations of an archive as formats evolve
16:43:39 <dauwhe> ivan: I see a task force forming
16:43:46 <dauwhe> TimCole: what kinds of things would be needed?
16:44:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: the first step would be looking at the PWPWP section about archiving
16:44:13 <dauwhe> ... and asking people involved in archiving if their use cases are addressed
16:44:23 <dauwhe> .... that's a basic first step
16:44:28 <dauwhe> TimCole: we can come up with more use cases
16:44:44 <dauwhe> ivan: once those use cases are clear in our minds, how does it influence the rest of the document
16:45:02 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there's an intersection with the locator group, which is versioning
16:45:07 <dauwhe> TimCole: definitely
16:45:28 <dauwhe> ... should we go off now and come up with ideas?
16:45:36 <dauwhe> ivan: go on
16:45:44 <dauwhe> ... I don't think Markus has specific things in mind
16:45:49 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
16:46:09 <dauwhe> TimCole: given the holiday, it's probably premature to plan on this as topic for next week, but maybe the week after
16:46:10 <HeatherF> Email works fo rme.
16:46:17 <ivan> q+
16:46:18 <dauwhe> ... we can discuss on email with interested parties
16:46:23 <tzviya> ack iv
16:46:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: ivan, can you reach out to Lars?
16:46:31 <dauwhe> ivan: yes
16:46:43 <dauwhe> ... first, let's see what Tim et al come up with; then we can bring in Lars
16:46:51 <dauwhe> ... we need something more tangible for him
16:46:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: you were on the queue
16:47:08 <ivan> ack ivan
16:47:09 <dauwhe> ivan: Yes
16:47:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: we were going to look at acme publishing
16:48:27 <pkra> even MathJax works offline :)
16:48:34 <pkra> so cool, dauwhe!
16:49:00 <dauwhe> ivan: if I take heat radiation
16:49:13 <pkra> (caveat emptor: which has some horrible MathML coding...)
16:50:28 <dauwhe> ivan: the question is how can we use this starting code and publications
16:50:34 <dauwhe> ... as being a proof of concept for PWP
16:50:44 <dauwhe> ... from your point of view, what are the missing bits
16:51:22 <tzviya> q?
16:52:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: epub comes with a lot; somethings that's good and sometimes it's bad
16:52:53 <dauwhe> ... maybe we can improve the a11y
16:53:00 <dauwhe> tzviya: there's more to do with this
16:53:09 <dauwhe> ... it exists in a rudimentary way, but we can add more
16:53:15 <dauwhe> ivan: from our point of view
16:53:21 <dauwhe> ... what I would like to separate
16:53:33 <dauwhe> ... what should be done by a smart implementation
16:53:48 <dauwhe> ... and what is necessary to add to the basic technology
16:54:02 <dauwhe> ... in a way, the user interface is not our job
16:54:32 <dauwhe> dauwhe: but we want the format to at least make this kind of thing possible
16:55:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: it would be helpful to get more feedback, review from more people
16:55:12 <tzviya> q?
16:55:16 <dauwhe> me astearns: LOL
16:55:16 <pkra> yes.
16:55:22 <ayla_stein> ...not really
16:55:26 <dauwhe> s/me//me/
16:55:30 <ayla_stein> no
16:55:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: we've been assuming people are familiar with service workers
16:55:47 <dauwhe> ... but some might not be so familiar with this work
16:55:58 <ayla_stein> okay, thank you!
16:56:03 <ayla_stein> I'll try to do some reading too
16:56:04 <dauwhe> ... we have just five minutes, but should give more background
16:56:24 <dauwhe> ivan: and how does it relate to the pwp conversation
16:56:33 <Daniel-Weck> Service Workers: I posted comments in response to Ivan's issue on GitHub:
16:56:33 <Daniel-Weck> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp/issues/6#issuecomment-158994118
16:56:38 <dauwhe> tzviya: next time we talk about this, we'll give more background
16:56:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> Proposed motto for Acme Publishing: When you have an anvil, everything looks like a roadrunner.
16:56:52 <dauwhe> ... please look and give Dave feedback
16:56:59 <dauwhe> ... and tell us if it's creating trouble
16:57:12 <tzviya> q?
16:57:45 <dauwhe> ivan: do we want to do a cleaned-up repo as PWP proof of concept eventually
16:58:23 <dauwhe> ... it would be great to have non-books there
16:58:49 <dauwhe> ... it would be great to have academic papers, to have magazines
16:58:58 <pkra> +q
16:59:01 <dauwhe> ... that may bring up new issues
16:59:15 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'm working on 7 journals; I'll find out if I can publish anything
16:59:48 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm sure you can take a PLOS article
17:00:02 <tzviya> ack pk
17:00:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: open access is tricky
17:00:11 <dauwhe> pkra: I just wanted to volunteer
17:00:17 <dauwhe> ... to help with this part
17:00:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: excellent
17:00:31 <pkra> +1
17:00:38 <nickbarreto> me +1 Dave is great
17:00:40 <ivan> Dave is great!
17:00:41 <tzviya> for the record, dave is great
17:00:43 <ayla_stein> +1
17:00:53 <clapierre> +1 Dave!
17:01:37 <pkra> q+ is there a link to dauwhe's repo?
17:01:38 <Bert> (Is there documentation what rel/class/ID attributes you need to add to make a set of pages into a publication?)
17:01:47 <ivan> https://dauwhe.github.io/epub-zero/acme-publishing/
17:01:54 <pkra> got it.
17:01:56 <dauwhe> pkra: https://github.com/dauwhe/epub-zero
17:02:16 <pkra> dauwhe is great.
17:02:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: any closing remarks?
17:02:19 <dauwhe> (silence)
17:02:44 <ayla_stein> thanks!
17:02:48 <dauwhe> tzviya: happy thanksgiving etc
17:02:50 <HeatherF> All Americans, enjoy your holiday. All Europeans, enjoy your holiday from Americans.
17:02:54 <dauwhe> (more hilarity)
17:03:49 <ivan> Regrets+ Markus_Gylling
17:03:56 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/23-dpub-minutes.html ivan
17:04:09 <ivan> zakim, end telcon
17:04:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'end telcon', ivan
17:04:17 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:04:17 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:04:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tzviya_Siegman, Charles_LaPierre, Karen, Dave_Cramer, Ivan_Herman, duga, Tim_Cole, astearns, nick_barreto, ayla_stein, Deborah_Kaplan,
17:04:20 <Zakim> ... Peter, Krautzberger, Liam_Quin, Daniel_Weck, Bert, Romain, Deltour, Bill_Kasdorf
17:04:21 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
17:04:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:04:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/23-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
17:04:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:04:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items