IRC log of aria-apg on 2015-11-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:02:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:02:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-irc
18:02:54 [jamesn]
Meeting: WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
18:02:58 [mck]
trackbot start meeting
18:03:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:03:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:03:02 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:03:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:03:03 [trackbot]
Date: 16 November 2015
18:03:29 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review mixed checkbox examples https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html
18:03:29 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review and update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:03:29 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks
18:03:34 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:04:37 [jamesn]
zakim, clear the agenda
18:04:37 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
18:04:41 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks
18:04:48 [jamesn]
zakim, clear the agenda
18:04:48 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
18:04:54 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review mixed checkbox examples https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html
18:04:59 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review and update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:05:02 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks
18:05:09 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:07:48 [jamesn]
scribe: jamesn
18:08:25 [jemma_]
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18:08:30 [mck]
present+ matt_king
18:08:37 [jamesn]
present+ James_Nurthen
18:08:42 [jemma_]
present+ jaeunjemmaku
18:08:59 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:10:08 [jamesn]
present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:10:16 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 1
18:10:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Review mixed checkbox examples https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html" taken up [from jamesn]
18:11:37 [jemma_]
https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZxCxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing
18:11:51 [jamesn]
MK: should we have something in APG about browser support?
18:12:08 [jamesn]
MB: limit to words but not numbers
18:12:20 [jamesn]
MB: going to be a chore to update to browser versions
18:12:34 [jamesn]
MK: we didn't make a decision to support major bersions of browsers
18:12:47 [jamesn]
MK: our task is to provide practices which support th specification
18:13:10 [jamesn]
MK: we need to make some sort of statement - find where we last discussed this
18:13:45 [jamesn]
MK: pretty sure we made a resolution that we would not make an effort to update every example in response to eery screen reader or browser version change
18:13:55 [jamesn]
MK: examples are not how to work around quirks
18:14:35 [jamesn]
MK: best practices for compliance to spec. our expectation that browser and screen reader devs would use them to guauage their support for the design patterns
18:14:56 [MichielBijl]
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18:15:06 [MichielBijl]
present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:15:08 [jamesn]
MK: recall that if there is some importatnt functionality that is broadly used and have to do something quirky we might include that but would not be our general practice
18:16:52 [jamesn]
JN: 2 different examples - when things dont work completely and when things are completely broken
18:17:26 [jamesn]
MK: i think the aria-labelledby example is slightly better for both NVDA and JAWS but the other works in some other cases and should be sufficient
18:17:49 [jamesn]
MK: shoudl we create a bug for a section to draft our browser and AT approach
18:19:30 [jongund]
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18:19:37 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29297
18:19:43 [bgaraventa1979]
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18:19:59 [jamesn]
MK: in the example there is @alt on the mixed checkbox image
18:20:03 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:20:12 [jamesn]
MK: there really should be null alt text
18:20:44 [jemma_]
https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZxCxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing
18:20:53 [jamesn]
Jemma: google doc for screen reader testing
18:21:16 [jamesn]
JG: sometimes NVDA does read the grouping label, sometimes it doesn't
18:21:40 [jamesn]
JG: with radios seems consistent, but checkboxes seems to be not consistent
18:22:43 [jamesn]
JG: consensus to use fieldset/legend
18:22:49 [jamesn]
JG: ?
18:23:18 [jamesn]
MK: both are valid
18:23:27 [jamesn]
q? to ask about group?
18:23:43 [jamesn]
JG: fieldset legend leaves it up to AT
18:23:59 [jamesn]
JG: the 2 techniques will affect the user experience
18:24:10 [jamesn]
MK: don't know if that will always be that way
18:25:13 [MichielBijl]
JN: did you test between fieldset legend and role=group labelledby?
18:25:16 [LJWatson]
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18:25:29 [LJWatson]
present+ LJWatson
18:25:33 [jamesn]
ack me
18:26:04 [jamesn]
MK: looking at the spex we were 99% certain we can use fieldset/legend in this way
18:26:13 [jamesn]
JG: that is intersting
18:26:32 [jamesn]
JG: in the a11y api how is the FS/Legend exposed to at
18:26:57 [jamesn]
JG: the AT finds the grouping label and then reads it
18:27:08 [jamesn]
JG: think that is an interesting authoring issue
18:27:24 [jamesn]
JG: the 2 techniques are saying different things about the accessible name
18:27:42 [jamesn]
JG: the grouping thing is important in certain contexts
18:28:03 [jamesn]
MK: the ATs should always provide access to the grouping label in all contexts even if they don't read it automatically
18:28:29 [jamesn]
MK: all ATs have a command for reading the current element and its label and grouping container should probably get read there
18:28:50 [jamesn]
MK: the only one that does that consistently is JAWS but not even sure that is accurate now
18:30:38 [jamesn]
JG: shouldn't be comparing aria-labelledby with FS/Legend but should instead be comparing with role=group
18:30:47 [jamesn]
discussion on if group works
18:30:54 [jamesn]
JN: they should all be valid
18:31:02 [jamesn]
MK: in the wild we see all 3 approached
18:31:19 [jamesn]
JG: newbie devs want to overcontrol the experience
18:31:34 [jamesn]
JG: they will latch on to the aria-labelledby example
18:32:02 [jamesn]
MK: none of the screen readers are reading the grouping label from the currently focussed item
18:32:41 [jamesn]
discussion of aria-describedby
18:33:07 [jamesn]
JG: does role=group work for links
18:33:13 [jamesn]
JN: no idea
18:33:57 [jamesn]
MK: if you wanted the group to be a single tab stop
18:36:48 [jamesn]
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18:37:47 [jamesn]
MK: Jon and Jemma will add a 3rd version with role=group
18:40:41 [jnurthen]
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18:40:51 [MichielBijl]
http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a62554037b0f8d25269b06c245ea8e031447699204201/index.html
18:40:58 [MichielBijl]
scribe: MichielBijl
18:41:38 [MichielBijl]
MB: is this what we mean?
18:41:53 [MichielBijl]
JG: we want to show the different ways to achieve the same thing
18:42:09 [MichielBijl]
s/JG/MK
18:42:55 [MichielBijl]
MK: we don't want to say how particular cases work
18:43:23 [MichielBijl]
MK: what it's doing is explaining redundant code per spec
18:43:37 [MichielBijl]
MK: redundant coding can produce redundant speech
18:43:43 [MichielBijl]
MK: that could be a warning
18:43:53 [MichielBijl]
JG: developers don't want to be redundant
18:44:30 [MichielBijl]
http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a478ae4e07dc1cb260899459db247af21447699453614/index.html
18:44:46 [MichielBijl]
http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/mevpMa
18:46:31 [jamesn]
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18:46:58 [MichielBijl]
Zakim nextitem
18:47:07 [MichielBijl]
Zakim next item
18:47:10 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, next item
18:47:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review and update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status" taken up [from jamesn]
18:50:07 [MichielBijl]
MK: any updates?
18:50:13 [MichielBijl]
MB: my name still shows after alert
18:50:16 [MichielBijl]
MB: that is done
18:50:24 [MichielBijl]
MK: no edits?
18:50:47 [MichielBijl]
BG: there are more ways to trigger a alert
18:51:01 [MichielBijl]
BG: you can add a role of alert to a div that is already there
18:51:21 [MichielBijl]
BG: you can also add content to a div with role=alert
18:51:34 [MichielBijl]
MB: do we want to implement different ways?
18:52:08 [MichielBijl]
MK: alert developers of ways that don't work?
18:52:17 [MichielBijl]
BG: if the alert is off screen it doesn't work
18:52:29 [MichielBijl]
MK: maybe put in a note?
18:55:37 [MichielBijl]
MB: rather show different ways of doing it than a note; that list might grow
18:56:48 [MichielBijl]
MK: another way is to just unhide it with CSS
18:56:56 [MichielBijl]
MK: is html5 hidden ready?
18:57:23 [MichielBijl]
MB: you can use that, and have a fallback with a CSS attribute selector [hidden] { display: none }
18:57:50 [MichielBijl]
MK: can you make that?
18:57:52 [MichielBijl]
MB: sure
18:58:02 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, next item
18:58:02 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks" taken up [from jamesn]
18:58:48 [MichielBijl]
MK: for all intends and purposes this section is blank slate
18:59:05 [MichielBijl]
MK: one choice is to not have a specific design pattern for landmarks
18:59:15 [MichielBijl]
MK: Ann was pretty opposed
18:59:56 [MichielBijl]
MK: we could have a design pattern here.
19:01:08 [MichielBijl]
MB: landmark navigation could have inline links
19:01:16 [MichielBijl]
MK: other parts of the APG
19:01:26 [MichielBijl]
JG: I'm willing to take this on
19:01:55 [MichielBijl]
JG: I can use this for examples
19:02:09 [MichielBijl]
MK: do you wan't to work on the description?
19:02:18 [MichielBijl]
JG: I will, and see what people think
19:03:26 [MichielBijl]
MK: just take out te keyboard interaction section?
19:03:33 [MichielBijl]
JG: yes, or provide a note
19:03:42 [MichielBijl]
JN: “this is not your problem”
19:04:02 [MichielBijl]
JN: we have much more important things to do and I'm in favour of removing it.
19:04:17 [MichielBijl]
JG: I think it's important, people are confused about landmarks
19:04:53 [MichielBijl]
MK: propose a description. I do tink we have some example work that is higher on the list.
19:05:47 [MichielBijl]
JG: over the summer we have a new student helping us with the examples
19:05:53 [jamesn]
don't forget we also have this in the APG
19:05:54 [jamesn]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#h-kbd_layout
19:08:53 [MichielBijl]
JN: can I get a task and just remove (X) from the spec?
19:12:18 [MichielBijl]
MK: whole section doesn't really make sense
19:13:11 [MichielBijl]
MB: I'm interested in what Jon comes up with
19:13:19 [MichielBijl]
JG: I'll try to harmonise
19:13:37 [MichielBijl]
MK: no, don't look at this. Write something, and we might delete this section
19:16:03 [MichielBijl]
MK: do we need to discuss headings and heading level in the guide?
19:16:53 [MichielBijl]
MK: we need to review section 4.2
19:18:12 [MichielBijl]
Next item: be done!
19:19:38 [MichielBijl]
MK: probably no meeting 21st and 28th of December
19:20:00 [MichielBijl]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:20:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
19:20:30 [MichielBijl]
chair: Matt_King
19:20:48 [MichielBijl]
scribeOptions: -final
19:20:51 [MichielBijl]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:20:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
19:21:15 [MichielBijl]
Zakim dismiss
19:21:17 [MichielBijl]
?
19:21:19 [MichielBijl]
No :p
19:21:37 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, dismiss
19:21:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'dismiss', MichielBijl
19:21:43 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, leave!
19:21:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'leave!', MichielBijl
19:21:47 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, be gone
19:21:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'be gone', MichielBijl
19:21:57 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, dismissed
19:21:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'dismissed', MichielBijl
19:22:26 [jemma_]
zakim part
19:22:50 [MichielBijl]
I tried kicking him, but that didn't work
19:23:00 [jemma_]
I can do it
19:23:04 [jemma_]
zakim, excuse us
19:23:04 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been JamesNurthen, jemmaku, jongund, AnnAbbott, MattKing, Raghu, Michiel_Bijl, IanPouncey, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson, King, matt_king,
19:23:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:23:07 [Zakim]
... James_Nurthen, jaeunjemmaku
19:23:20 [jemma_]
I did it!
19:24:17 [MichielBijl]
Nice!
19:24:29 [MichielBijl]
I'll have to remember that one
19:24:45 [jemma_]
just searched the google. ;-)
19:25:18 [jemma_]
see you next week, great job again for scribing
19:25:23 [MichielBijl]
I'll just write it down
19:25:32 [MichielBijl]
Thank you, great job on the checkbox examples!
19:25:37 [MichielBijl]
See you next week