18:02:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:02:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-irc
18:02:54 <jamesn> Meeting: WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
18:02:58 <mck> trackbot start meeting
18:03:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:03:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:03:02 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:03:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:03:03 <trackbot> Date: 16 November 2015
18:03:29 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review mixed checkbox examples https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html
18:03:29 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review and update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:03:29 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks
18:03:34 <jamesn> agenda?
18:04:37 <jamesn> zakim, clear the agenda
18:04:37 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:04:41 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks
18:04:48 <jamesn> zakim, clear the agenda
18:04:48 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:04:54 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review mixed checkbox examples https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html
18:04:59 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review and update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:05:02 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks
18:05:09 <jamesn> agenda?
18:07:48 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
18:08:25 <jemma_> jemma_ has joined #aria-apg
18:08:30 <mck> present+ matt_king
18:08:37 <jamesn> present+ James_Nurthen
18:08:42 <jemma_> present+ jaeunjemmaku
18:08:59 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:10:08 <jamesn> present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:10:16 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
18:10:16 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review mixed checkbox examples https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html" taken up [from jamesn]
18:11:37 <jemma_> https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZxCxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing
18:11:51 <jamesn> MK: should we have something in APG about browser support?
18:12:08 <jamesn> MB: limit to words but not numbers
18:12:20 <jamesn> MB: going to be a chore to update to browser versions
18:12:34 <jamesn> MK: we didn't make a decision to support major bersions of browsers
18:12:47 <jamesn> MK: our task is to provide practices which support th specification
18:13:10 <jamesn> MK: we need to make some sort of statement - find where we last discussed this
18:13:45 <jamesn> MK: pretty sure we made a resolution that we would not make an effort to update every example in response to eery screen reader or browser version change
18:13:55 <jamesn> MK: examples are not how to work around quirks
18:14:35 <jamesn> MK: best practices for compliance to spec. our expectation that browser and screen reader devs would use them to guauage their support for the design patterns
18:14:56 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria-apg
18:15:06 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:15:08 <jamesn> MK: recall that if there is some importatnt functionality that is broadly used and have to do something quirky we might include that but would not be our general practice
18:16:52 <jamesn> JN: 2 different examples - when things dont work completely and when things are completely broken
18:17:26 <jamesn> MK: i think the aria-labelledby example is slightly better for both NVDA and JAWS but the other works in some other cases and should be sufficient
18:17:49 <jamesn> MK: shoudl we create a bug for a section to draft our browser and AT approach
18:19:30 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:19:37 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29297
18:19:43 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg
18:19:59 <jamesn> MK: in the example there is @alt on the mixed checkbox image
18:20:03 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:20:12 <jamesn> MK: there really should be null alt text
18:20:44 <jemma_> https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZxCxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing
18:20:53 <jamesn> Jemma: google doc for screen reader testing
18:21:16 <jamesn> JG: sometimes NVDA does read the grouping label, sometimes it doesn't
18:21:40 <jamesn> JG: with radios seems consistent, but checkboxes seems to be not consistent
18:22:43 <jamesn> JG: consensus to use fieldset/legend
18:22:49 <jamesn> JG: ?
18:23:18 <jamesn> MK: both are valid
18:23:27 <jamesn> q? to ask about group?
18:23:43 <jamesn> JG: fieldset legend leaves it up to AT
18:23:59 <jamesn> JG: the 2 techniques will affect the user experience
18:24:10 <jamesn> MK: don't know if that will always be that way
18:25:13 <MichielBijl> JN: did you test between fieldset legend and role=group labelledby?
18:25:16 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria-apg
18:25:29 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
18:25:33 <jamesn> ack me
18:26:04 <jamesn> MK: looking at the spex we were 99% certain we can use fieldset/legend in this way
18:26:13 <jamesn> JG: that is intersting
18:26:32 <jamesn> JG: in the a11y api how is the FS/Legend exposed to at
18:26:57 <jamesn> JG: the AT finds the grouping label and then reads it
18:27:08 <jamesn> JG: think that is an interesting authoring issue
18:27:24 <jamesn> JG: the 2 techniques are saying different things about the accessible name
18:27:42 <jamesn> JG: the grouping thing is important in certain contexts
18:28:03 <jamesn> MK: the ATs should always provide access to the grouping label in all contexts even if they don't read it automatically
18:28:29 <jamesn> MK: all ATs have a command for reading the current element and its label and grouping container should probably get read there
18:28:50 <jamesn> MK: the only one that does that consistently is JAWS but not even sure that is accurate now
18:30:38 <jamesn> JG: shouldn't be comparing aria-labelledby with FS/Legend but should instead be comparing with role=group
18:30:47 <jamesn> discussion on if group works
18:30:54 <jamesn> JN: they should all be valid
18:31:02 <jamesn> MK: in the wild we see all 3 approached
18:31:19 <jamesn> JG: newbie devs want to overcontrol the experience
18:31:34 <jamesn> JG: they will latch on to the aria-labelledby example
18:32:02 <jamesn> MK: none of the screen readers are reading the grouping label from the currently focussed item
18:32:41 <jamesn> discussion of aria-describedby
18:33:07 <jamesn> JG: does role=group work for links
18:33:13 <jamesn> JN: no idea
18:33:57 <jamesn> MK: if you wanted the group to be a single tab stop
18:36:48 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
18:37:47 <jamesn> MK: Jon and Jemma will add a 3rd version with role=group
18:40:41 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria-apg
18:40:51 <MichielBijl> http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a62554037b0f8d25269b06c245ea8e031447699204201/index.html
18:40:58 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
18:41:38 <MichielBijl> MB: is this what we mean?
18:41:53 <MichielBijl> JG: we want to show the different ways to achieve the same thing
18:42:09 <MichielBijl> s/JG/MK
18:42:55 <MichielBijl> MK: we don't want to say how particular cases work
18:43:23 <MichielBijl> MK: what it's doing is explaining redundant code per spec
18:43:37 <MichielBijl> MK: redundant coding can produce redundant speech
18:43:43 <MichielBijl> MK: that could be a warning
18:43:53 <MichielBijl> JG: developers don't want to be redundant
18:44:30 <MichielBijl> http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a478ae4e07dc1cb260899459db247af21447699453614/index.html
18:44:46 <MichielBijl> http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/mevpMa
18:46:31 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
18:46:58 <MichielBijl> Zakim nextitem
18:47:07 <MichielBijl> Zakim next item
18:47:10 <MichielBijl> Zakim, next item
18:47:10 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review and update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status" taken up [from jamesn]
18:50:07 <MichielBijl> MK: any updates?
18:50:13 <MichielBijl> MB: my name still shows after alert
18:50:16 <MichielBijl> MB: that is done
18:50:24 <MichielBijl> MK: no edits?
18:50:47 <MichielBijl> BG: there are more ways to trigger a alert
18:51:01 <MichielBijl> BG: you can add a role of alert to a div that is already there
18:51:21 <MichielBijl> BG: you can also add content to a div with role=alert
18:51:34 <MichielBijl> MB: do we want to implement different ways?
18:52:08 <MichielBijl> MK: alert developers of ways that don't work?
18:52:17 <MichielBijl> BG: if the alert is off screen it doesn't work
18:52:29 <MichielBijl> MK: maybe put in a note?
18:55:37 <MichielBijl> MB: rather show different ways of doing it than a note; that list might grow
18:56:48 <MichielBijl> MK: another way is to just unhide it with CSS
18:56:56 <MichielBijl> MK: is html5 hidden ready?
18:57:23 <MichielBijl> MB: you can use that, and have a fallback with a CSS attribute selector [hidden] { display: none }
18:57:50 <MichielBijl> MK: can you make that?
18:57:52 <MichielBijl> MB: sure
18:58:02 <MichielBijl> Zakim, next item
18:58:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks" taken up [from jamesn]
18:58:48 <MichielBijl> MK: for all intends and purposes this section is blank slate
18:59:05 <MichielBijl> MK: one choice is to not have a specific design pattern for landmarks
18:59:15 <MichielBijl> MK: Ann was pretty opposed
18:59:56 <MichielBijl> MK: we could have a design pattern here.
19:01:08 <MichielBijl> MB: landmark navigation could have inline links
19:01:16 <MichielBijl> MK: other parts of the APG
19:01:26 <MichielBijl> JG: I'm willing to take this on
19:01:55 <MichielBijl> JG: I can use this for examples
19:02:09 <MichielBijl> MK: do you wan't to work on the description?
19:02:18 <MichielBijl> JG: I will, and see what people think
19:03:26 <MichielBijl> MK: just take out te keyboard interaction section?
19:03:33 <MichielBijl> JG: yes, or provide a note
19:03:42 <MichielBijl> JN: “this is not your problem”
19:04:02 <MichielBijl> JN: we have much more important things to do and I'm in favour of removing it.
19:04:17 <MichielBijl> JG: I think it's important, people are confused about landmarks
19:04:53 <MichielBijl> MK: propose a description. I do tink we have some example work that is higher on the list.
19:05:47 <MichielBijl> JG: over the summer we have a new student helping us with the examples
19:05:53 <jamesn> don't forget we also have this in the APG
19:05:54 <jamesn> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#h-kbd_layout
19:08:53 <MichielBijl> JN: can I get a task and just remove (X) from the spec?
19:12:18 <MichielBijl> MK: whole section doesn't really make sense
19:13:11 <MichielBijl> MB: I'm interested in what Jon comes up with
19:13:19 <MichielBijl> JG: I'll try to harmonise
19:13:37 <MichielBijl> MK: no, don't look at this. Write something, and we might delete this section
19:16:03 <MichielBijl> MK: do we need to discuss headings and heading level in the guide?
19:16:53 <MichielBijl> MK: we need to review section 4.2
19:18:12 <MichielBijl> Next item: be done!
19:19:38 <MichielBijl> MK: probably no meeting 21st and 28th of December
19:20:00 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:20:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
19:20:30 <MichielBijl> chair: Matt_King
19:20:48 <MichielBijl> scribeOptions: -final
19:20:51 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:20:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
19:21:15 <MichielBijl> Zakim dismiss
19:21:17 <MichielBijl> ?
19:21:19 <MichielBijl> No :p
19:21:37 <MichielBijl> Zakim, dismiss
19:21:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'dismiss', MichielBijl
19:21:43 <MichielBijl> Zakim, leave!
19:21:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'leave!', MichielBijl
19:21:47 <MichielBijl> Zakim, be gone
19:21:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'be gone', MichielBijl
19:21:57 <MichielBijl> Zakim, dismissed
19:21:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'dismissed', MichielBijl
19:22:26 <jemma_> zakim part
19:22:50 <MichielBijl> I tried kicking him, but that didn't work
19:23:00 <jemma_> I can do it
19:23:04 <jemma_> zakim, excuse us
19:23:04 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been JamesNurthen, jemmaku, jongund, AnnAbbott, MattKing, Raghu, Michiel_Bijl, IanPouncey, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson, King, matt_king,
19:23:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:23:07 <Zakim> ... James_Nurthen, jaeunjemmaku
19:23:20 <jemma_> I did it!
19:24:17 <MichielBijl> Nice!
19:24:29 <MichielBijl> I'll have to remember that one
19:24:45 <jemma_> just searched the google. ;-)
19:25:18 <jemma_> see you next week, great job again for scribing
19:25:23 <MichielBijl> I'll just write it down
19:25:32 <MichielBijl> Thank you, great job on the checkbox examples!
19:25:37 <MichielBijl> See you next week